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Old 06-02-2015, 08:58 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Lumber Beasts and critters

Couple of Warcraft animal ethics question here.

Creatures like the murlocs, makrura, quilboar, gnolls, kobolds, grummle and furbolg are non-human but intelligent creatures (for the most part.) Many of them have cultures, history and aspirations beyond mere survival. They're probably capable of feeling sadness, envy and anger. They feel pain like every player race can (except the undead humans.) I think most people would agree it wouldn't be ethical to unprovokedly kill a baby dwarf, so why is it right for the heroes to slaughter Azeroth and Draenor's beasts and critters? Either none of it is moral or all of it is.

Second question is what is the actual ethical way to treat Azeroth's non-human life? The quilboar is the example I keep thinking about because I'm not actually sure how co-existence is possible with them. Quilboar by their nature are unreasonably aggressive to outside races but they're not sadists like the centaur, who pillage and make war on others. They are hostile creatures but so are we. But I still can't help but think if they were given sufficient space for their race to live on they would develop into a more sophisticated and peaceable people.

Input?

Last edited by Shaman; 06-03-2015 at 04:22 PM..
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:25 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Join the Alliance or Horde, or die.

Mobs versus NPCs.

Not really ethical.
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:25 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I can't think of any sapient -critters-, but otherwise I think we've got three tiers.

1. Orcs, Humans, Quillboar, things that can talk but might not necessarily want to, but that's really the only barrier.

2. Troggs, Makrura, etc... maybe some have the capacity to talk but cultural and societal differences mean most don't, and communication is harder.

3. Manticore, Raptors, and other sapient animals. Self aware, but markedly different from the playable races.


Quillboar are dicks, they're not going to stop trying to expand because they are a fucked up bunch of cannibals and the only option is to push them back whenever they attack and hit them whenever they get into too big of a threat, and reward acceptable behavior (not like in Baine's shitty story where he drowned a bunch).

Troggs and such need to be studied so it can be discerned how we can better communicate with them, other than that they just need to be left alone.

Manticore, raptors and such need to gradually be given full rights as methods of communication are developed to break linguistic and other barriers.
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:28 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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Gotta get candles somehow. What're we supposed to do, make 'em?

Seriously though, good point. Though I don't think we've killed any Grummles outside of the fightclub. That aside, as for why, at least some make themselves into enemies, like the kobolds, gnolls (don't forget their creepy human-skin tents), and so forth. Furbolgs seem to have a tendency toward being corrupted and so it can best be viewed as putting them down, like one would a rabid animal.

Second question is harder. I think giving them chances to actually co-exist is worthwhile, but I don't think some, like the murlocs, are really capable. The real problem is that a lot of places where they live, they come in fairly constant contact with other races that they become hostile to (Elwynn Forest being a great example, with Kobolds infesting human mines, murlocs lurking near lakes/rivers near human settlements, and Gnolls encroaching from Westfall).

Some would definitely work if given their own land (or had encroachment from Alliance/Horde races cease), like the Furbolg, but I really don't see Murlocs flocking to such a place.
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:34 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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I'd say there's a greater gap of dignity and intelligence between Humans and Deathwing/Archimonde, than between Murlocs and Humans.


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Second question is harder. I think giving them chances to actually co-exist is worthwhile, but I don't think some, like the murlocs, are really capable. The real problem is that a lot of places where they live, they come in fairly constant contact with other races that they become hostile to (Elwynn Forest being a great example, with Kobolds infesting human mines, murlocs lurking near lakes/rivers near human settlements, and Gnolls encroaching from Westfall).
But Kobolds and Gnolls need to live somewhere, too. And who knows if those lands used to be occupied by their ancestors, before the Humans conquered them.


Now don't forget that there are Red Dragon mobs in Grim Batol...

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Old 06-02-2015, 09:39 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I thought we established a long time ago that player characters are monsters and the factions are evil hypocrites.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:26 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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They should make their home in the Critter Capital of Northeron, safe from both dev and player alike.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:16 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
I think most people would agree it wouldn't be ethical to unprovokedly kill a baby dwarf, so why is it right for the heroes to slaughter Azeroth and Draenor's beasts and critters? Either none of it is moral or all of it is.
Our characters were provoked most of the time, so it's legal. Leaving aside the farmers in Westfall, who kill murlocs just to eat their eyes, the beasties are only killed to defend the heroes' societies.

What the heroes should do is to take the orphans with them, so that the next generation learns how to coexist peacefully with the Alliance and Horde. Kinda like the tuskar's wolvar orphans project, but without secretly eating them.
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Old 06-03-2015, 05:25 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Our characters were provoked most of the time, so it's legal. Leaving aside the farmers in Westfall, who kill murlocs just to eat their eyes, the beasties are only killed to defend the heroes' societies.

What the heroes should do is to take the orphans with them, so that the next generation learns how to coexist peacefully with the Alliance and Horde. Kinda like the tuskar's wolvar orphans project, but without secretly eating them.
Except for the Durotar quill boar that are killed for being in the way of the Orcs.
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Old 06-03-2015, 05:38 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Except for the Durotar quill boar that are killed for being in the way of the Orcs.
Holdup, aren't those quillboar murdering orcs just for being in their general vicinity?
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Old 06-03-2015, 06:44 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Holdup, aren't those quillboar murdering orcs just for being in their general vicinity?
I don't recall that. I thought it was because it was quillboar land and they were defensive.

They're probably all dead now so it likely matters little.
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Old 06-03-2015, 06:47 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I don't recall that. I thought it was because it was quillboar land and they were defensive.
Afaik, they were raiding the caravans between Crossroads and Razor Hill.
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:20 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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It's only morally wrong to kill if you're fighting player-faction Horde.

Literally everything/body else is expendable.
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:49 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Not sure I'd call those beast-men beasts.

We'd have to understand why Gnolls and Koblods are so aggressive, but Koblods are probably easier to talk to. It depends on the Murloc but they're evil savage creatures who should be put to the sword.
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Old 06-03-2015, 06:09 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I'd say it differs heavily from species to species

Gnolls are definitely able to function to at least a degree in society, since we occasionally see 'em show up among other factions. Several packs are allied with the defias, one serves as mercenaries to the zandalari, we can have our fortunes told by one at the faire, and we see 'em as occasional mobs among venture co. employees and dark iron slaves.

Quilboar and harpies are a bit more difficult to guess, since we have so little info on their society and history. They could legit be primitive empires pissed off about all these newcomers, or they could be closer to beast-men. I'm leaning towards the former, seeing as the furbolg have a similar origin and seem perfectly on-par with most the intelligent races. Also possible is that there's a degree of corruption to them. We know the furbolg are easily corrupted, and there's a fair few sources of corruption scattered around the quilboar and harpy living areas.

Troggs, are the result of either direct corruption resulting in mental degeneration, or poor design resulting in high aggression and low intelligence. Stone troggs and kobolds seem a bit more functional than troggs, and we've seen groups of the latter ally with the defias.

Murlocs, I genuinely have no clue. It's hard to separate the joke aspect from any legit traits.
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Old 06-03-2015, 06:25 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Murloc slaves serve the naga empire very well, and they hate the naga. Just imagine what they'd do for someone they actually like.

I think their problem is that nobody really reaches out to them, believing them to be nothing more than stupid beasts.
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Old 06-03-2015, 07:00 AM
Apep Apep is offline

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It is difficult to reach a satisfying conclusion with the limited evidence presented to us.

All interaction takes place within the game, which is an MMO, wherein everything exists to be killed for loot, killed to reach the appropriate level for superior loot, or providing quests to receive the aforementioned loot, typically involving murder of some sort. In order to prevent us from feeling bad about the wholesale slaughter regularly facilitated by players, most of the targets in question are rendered violent, corrupted, or just plain evil, sparing us the disturbing question of morality.

From a logical standpoint, it would be unsurprising if normally aggressive parties decided the application of lethal force on sight is not worth the trouble it brings, as I am sure the millions of kobolds, murlocs, quillboar, and so on, exterminated with extreme prejudice would be enough to dissuade them.

In my opinion, it is wrong to kill another sapient being without suitable justification, which is an entirely different debate.

As for an ethical standard of treatment for non-human life, I think it is something of a case by case basis.
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Old 06-03-2015, 07:42 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon Brann Bronzebeard on murlocs

I dont like water much. No surprise, really I am a dwarf, after all. Waters fine to take off dirt and its good for cooling hot metals from the forge. It helps crops grow, and I can even stand to drink it when theres nothing else available. But I dont enjoy traveling on it if you ask me, if the Titans wanted us to sail theyd have given us rudders and masts and the like, instead of fingers and toes and hair. I can go on a boat when I have to going from one continent to another, I dont have much choice but Im on last and off the second were close enough to wade ashore. My time beneath the waves around Nazjatar didnt do anything to endear me to the element, either.

So the notion of moving under water instead of across it is unpleasant. And the idea that some beings live in it like fish well, thats just wrong.

Murlocs dont agree.

I still remember the first time I saw one. Id heard stories, of course, about fish-men who actually breathe under the water, easy as you please. But Ive heard plenty of strange stories people who fly, people who turn to smoke, people who eat their own limbs and grow them back overnight, all manner of weird. A lot of it was just stories, or exaggerations of something real and not even all that interesting, like the starving tribe that had no food and so each member cut off and ate his own left arm so he wouldnt hold a grudge against any of his tribemates. I figured this was more of the same. A tribe that liked water enough to swim every day which I still say is unnatural all by itself and somebody started calling them fish.

Then I saw them myself. I was down in Azeroths Elwynn Forest, walking along a lakeshore, when I saw a faint glimmer out in the water. It disappeared almost immediately but then I saw it again, not forty feet out. I had one hand on my axe, just in case, but thought it was nothing more than some wreckage from a boat or perhaps a piece of driftwood.

Then it raised its head above the surface and stared at me.

My first thought was since when do fish look above the water? because thats what it looked like. A fish. A big one with bright shiny scales and a wide body and a spiny fin across the top. Only it kept coming toward me, rising up at the same time, and I saw that below the body was more flesh, and then it widened and I realized it had shoulders. The body was its head. It stood up then, twenty feet from me, barbed spear in one hand and net in the other, and tilted its head back. The sound that came out was a strange gurgle, loud and liquid, and it hefted its spear as if to throw. I knew I could take it in a fight, but what if more of them were lurking nearby, below the surface where I couldnt see them? So I backed up a bit, and when I glanced back it was gone.

Im still not sure I believe everything Ive learned about them since. Oh, people are happy to tell me all about the fish-men, or gurglers as theyre sometimes called. Ive seen murloc hunters, and heard about them fishing or fighting sharks and whales, and even heard about murloc traders. Thats how people know the races name. But the murlocs dont much like other people and dont interact except when necessary. They always shy away from me quick enough. Maybe its the beard.

By the time I reached Northrend I had seen a lot of murlocs, but still didnt know much about them. Then I met an old druid named Mitrius, a pleasant sort of fellow, and we got to talking over some ale one night. Hed spent the past two years on the Shiverwind Coast, studying various plants and sea creatures, and his camp was less than a days travel from a murloc tribe. After a few months they decided he wasnt dangerous and started trading with him, fresh fish and seaweed and shells for wood and cloth and spices. Things got to the point where they even invited Mitrius into their home. He became a regular guest, probably the most tolerated non-murloc in all Azeroth, and he knew more about them than anyone. He told me most of it, though I suspect he kept a few things back. What he did say was enough to convince me hes either a fool or the bravest human I ever met. Who else would walk right into a place like that, time and again, without fearing that each time might be his last?

To hear Mitrius tell it, the murloc race is far older than most people realize. Far older and far more intelligent. The folks in Valgarde consider them little more than upright fish who can speak a few words, but Mitrius says murlocs are as smart as we are. They spend hours each day thinking and talking and praying. Their whole culture is built around prayer, actually, and around their religion. Then he told me about their religion, before I finally stopped him and drank enough ale to pass out. Some things even dwarves shouldnt have to hear.


Description
Murlocs are amphibious humanoids. They breathe as easily underwater as on dry land, and can walk but swim more quickly and comfortably. Murlocs dont like being above the water they find air too dry and walking awkward, slow, and slightly painful. Yet they remain, establishing their clustered villages along the shores and lakes of every continent.

To most humans and dwarves murlocs are just primitive fish-men who sometimes trade shells and seafood for metal, wood and spices, but more often battle us with crude weapons. Only a few murlocs ever enter other settlements, and they do so only to trade (or fight). Since murlocs usually live along empty coastlines no one else wants, people leave them alone.

Though murlocs can breathe air, they cannot remain out of water for long. Their skin is scaled like a fish and requires moisture to stay supple. Without daily immersion it dries and cracks, causing intense pain. This is why their villages are built along the shore every murloc spends part of the day underwater, as much for survival as for enjoyment.


Appearance
Murlocs are fine-looking creatures, if you like fish. They stand as tall as a human male, though they hunch over when out of water, and theyre as broad as a young man, with long arms and legs. Their skin gleams when wet, which it usually is, and you can see the scales clearly. One thing I hadnt expected from the stories was how colorful they are. Most fish Ive seen are silvery or coppery. Murlocs are all manner of color, though some have bands of red or blue or green across their torsos and foreheads, others have mottled patterns of silver and gold against bright green or blue, and others are striped or spotted. Some have a single color, but even that is bright and glistens with other colors in the light, like a scaly rainbow. Of course, much of the time their skin is coated with slime from the shore or the water, so the colors are dulled. On special occasions they splash themselves clean and then you can see all the colors fully though if youre at such an occasion you may be a bit preoccupied.

One look and you know without a doubt that murlocs are water-dwellers. In addition to the scales they have fins atop their heads, down their backs, and at their wrists and ankles. Their fingers and toes are long and webbed. Their eyes are big saucers that bulge outward and theyve got two or more eyelids. Their noses are small and their ears little more than dents in the sides of their heads, but their lips are thick and their teeth are small but sharp. Theyve also got gills on either side of their necks, clearly visible.

Murlocs dont wear much, even in Northrend. I guess their scales are enough to stave off the cold if they can handle the temperature underwater they can certainly cope with the wind and chill on land. They do wear armlets and bracers and necklaces and belts, all ornamented with shells and teeth and bits of stone or metal. A few wear cloths draped across a shoulder or wrapped around their neck (below the gills) and I think that indicates some rank. Headdresses are common they have no hair to get in the way and often arrange spines and spikes and shells and rocks about their heads, held in place by seaweed or twine or leather straps or even metal wire. A few pierce their skin with sharp coral needles or thin stone spikes, and use these as decorations as well. The few who trade with people sometimes wear loincloths and shawls as a concession to human modesty.


Regions
Murlocs have villages along at least one shore of every continent. In Northrend theyve settled along the southern shore, from the mouth of Lake Wintergrasp to just above Valgarde and Daggercap Bay. They also live along the edges of freshwater lakes. It seems they usually choose large bodies of water, generally away from any other races. That way they have ready water access and no one bothers them.

Faith
Religion plays a major part in murloc society. Im not quite sure what to call their religion polytheistic, maybe, or animistic, or perhaps shamanistic. Mitrius told me of odd rituals involving communication with the sea and its powers. Hes convinced that murlocs worship the water and powerful entities within it. Their religion is flexible enough to include any new aquatic creature they encounter, and they happily add or remove creatures to fit recent events. Thus a naga sea witch might become part of their prayers until she is killed by a band of sharks, at which point she is removed but the sharks are added. The only real constant is the water itself, which is seen as the mother of the murlocs and of all life.

History
Mitrius told me that the murloc race is far older than anyone realizes. Most people think murlocs became sentient or mobile or amphibious or all three only within the past century, which is why we never saw them before that. Theyre wrong. The shamans carry staves with tiny chips of shell imbedded around them in a rising swirl from bottom to top, and a shaman told Mitrius that each chip is added by the shaman just before he hands the staff to his successor. Scratched into those chips are tiny sigils containing key information that shaman learned during his lifetime. The staff that shaman held bore at least a hundred chips and was only covered halfway up its length. That staff was created more than ten thousand years ago! That means the murlocs existed before the rise of the Kaldorei, before the Burning Legion came, before the Great Sundering tore Kalimdor apart. They may be one of the oldest races on Azeroth. And most of their existence has been beneath the waves, hidden from view. Of course, most of this is Mitriuss speculation, but if anyone should know what hes talking about, its him.

If these tales are true, why, then, did murlocs emerge on shores all over the world a century ago? What brought them out of the water they love to the land they despise? I have no idea. Neither does Mitrius every time he asked the murlocs fell silent or turned away. I did meet another traveler, though, a tinker named Kem, who offered some answers.

I was trading with some of them fish-men, Kem told me over an ale, spearheads for fish and seaweed. They didnt much like the smell of me, apparently, kept wrinkling those funny faces of theirs Id fought off some bats not long before and still had their droppings all over me. Anyways, one of the fish-men scowled and turned away but another stopped him and muttered something about our duty compels us. Dunno what that meant, but after the deal was made I offered my hand to seal it. The first one shuddered and stepped back, but the second one stepped up and said as you require, Deepest Lord, and put that fishy paw of his in mine.

Other travelers have told me similar stories. Murlocs have let slip comments about obedience, service, orders, and other hints that they came to dry land not because they chose but because they were ordered. But by whom? Since they worship every powerful aquatic creature, it could have been anything. Yet it must have had a lot of power and made its wishes very clear for so many murlocs to leave the safety of the water and suffer through life on dry ground.


Society
Murlocs live in tribes, each tribe to its own village. Each tribe has a name that seems indicative of its members activities, appearance, or history, such as Lostfin or Bluegill. Tribes are organized into larger clans, and every so often all tribes in a clan meet to discuss items of importance. However, keeping a large group of murlocs coordinated and in agreement for any significant length of time is difficult.

Each tribe has a similar structure. An adult murloc is known as a huntsman, meaning he has proven himself capable of obtaining food for the tribe. Children are tested and given trials before becoming huntsmen. They can also become nightcrawlers, tiderunners and shamans. Nightcrawler is a name traders came up with, rather than a murloc name. I have no idea what they call it, but some murlocs hunt and gather on dry land instead of underwater. These murlocs are quieter and stealthier than their brethren, and if youve ever seen a murloc being sneaky you know thats saying something. I suspect nightcrawlers also scout new areas and inspect sites before the rest of their tribe moves in.

Tiderunners are expert hunters. They are more experienced, and also have skill at taming sea creatures and using them as guards, scouts and allies.

Shamans are the wise men and women of the murloc tribe. I dont think they ever go hunting, or perhaps only enough to establish themselves as full adults. Shamans commune with the water (the Deep Mother) and her favored children, and handle the tribes rituals. From what Ive seen they really can work some primitive magic and sometimes, not-so-primitive magic.

At set times each year, several tribes gather together. Where they gather changes each time its usually one of the tribes homes, though sometimes they meet in a neutral place instead. The tribes exchange information and also trade various goods. The shamans control these large gatherings, and the eldest shaman is considered the gatherings leader. He officiates and delegates tasks to the junior shamans, who then appoint other murlocs to handle mundane matters.

One thing about fish is you cant easily tell male from female. Murlocs are the same way. It took me a while to figure out that the length and shape of the head-fin and back-fin indicate gender, just as the shading indicates age. Murlocs treat males and females equally, and either can become a nightcrawler, a tiderunner or even a shaman. Thats probably because murlocs lay eggs instead of birthing live babies a murloc female can lay eggs one day, and be able to hunt again the day after that. The eggs are placed in water just offshore, near the village, and have to be tended regularly but anyone can care for them. Apparently members of the tribe take turns caring for all the eggs together, and then for the hatchlings once they hatch. Mitrius told me it takes about a year before the baby murlocs can breathe air and join the rest of the tribe in the village.

A few rare murlocs show too much talent and independence to remain in their tribal system, and leave their village to seek out a life elsewhere. Most of these are barbarians, though a few are rogues or scouts. Only a handful of healers leave murloc society, and even fewer become arcanists. Murloc runemasters are unknown.


Mentality
Murlocs seem simple, when you first meet them. Thats because theyve entered a settlement, or allowed someone to enter their village, in order to trade. Murlocs have their goods ready and know exactly what they want in return. They dont want to bargain or haggle or trade stories (unless its information they want). They just want to make a deal and be done with it. Most people think that means someones simple. It just means theyre focused.

Focused is a good word for murlocs. They are not a frivolous people. Oh, their young may cavort and splash about and dive just for fun, but older murlocs are too busy with survival and ritual to be so carefree. Life in a murloc village is difficult. The huntsmen are constantly gathering food, while the children and elders are preparing food, cleaning huts, making or repairing goods, and getting materials ready for the next ritual. Mitrius said even during celebrations most murlocs say as little as possible. I guess theyre still not used to talking out of water.

To a murloc, the survival of the group is everything. First comes the race, then the tribe, then the individual. Theyll do whatevers necessary for the survival of the largest group possible, even sacrificing lesser groups in the process. And in order to survive they need power. Thats why they worship anyone water-based who has enough power. Every murloc hopes to gain that power himself, or make a deal with someone who has it. No one thinks amiss of a fellow murloc who betrays his kin for such power, as long as it would benefit the race as a whole.

Murlocs value obedience above everything else. Agility and ruthlessness are also important, as are strength and hunting prowess. Spirit is important to shamans and separates tiderunners from mere huntsmen. They dont care about individuality or creativity unless it directly aids the survival of the tribe or some larger portion of the race.


Relations
Murlocs hate other races. Theres no other way to say it. Well, at least they hate surface-dwellers. Ive seen them insult and attack humans, elves, dwarves, furbolgs, gnomes, goblins, tuskarr, naga and even Drakkari trolls. It makes sense, since they hate living above the waves and hate dealing with land people. The only times murlocs dont attack members of another race are when they need something from them (whether thats information or goods) and cant kill for it, or when the other race severely outnumbers them. That includes travelers Ive passed through a few murloc villages unscathed, but then Mitrius told me how to approach them and what to offer them for safe passage. Others are not as lucky or not as well equipped.

Thats all above the waves, of course. Below the waves the murlocs may be more cordial. They certainly sacrifice often enough, so perhaps other aquatic races view them favorably or fear them and stay away. I suspect, though, that just as murlocs worship anyone they consider strong, they attack anyone they consider weak. That means each individual and each race has to prove itself strong on the first encounter, or become prey.


Distinguishing Characteristics
Murloc villages are strange little places. From the outside theyre horrible and pitiful, a collection of rough mud-and-twig huts strewn about without pattern. The huts arent uniform theyre roughly the same size and shape, but not perfectly so and most of them sag to one side or another. The villages have no fire, no clear walkways, and no defenses. The huts are ugly and plain, and the area is otherwise featureless except for the shallow basin behind the shamans hut. Most huts stand on stilts to protect them from the tide and flooding. I cant imagine a plainer, uglier place.

Thats the outside, though. The interior walls of each hut are often elaborately decorated. Some depict branching coral while others are mosaics of shell and stone and others are surprisingly delicate tapestries of shaded seaweed. The huts are usually open to the air, with small wooden pillars to hold the roof. Murlocs sleep in the water or on woven mats of seaweed, tied firmly to maintain their shape but so loose they look like small rectangular nets. Hooks of coral hold weapons and other items on the walls or pillars.

Murlocs rarely work in metal and almost never touch fire. Theyre expert carvers, however, and can work stone, shell, coral or wood into fabulous shapes and amazing scenes and designs. They dont trade these items, though, just shells and seaweed and other raw materials. I have a tiny sculpture I won from a trader, which he says a murloc gave him after a particularly good trade. Im not sure I believe him about the circumstances but the item is probably murloc it feels like something they made. Its a piranha carved from a short piece of coral, and so lifelike it almost seems to twitch when I blow on it. Ive seen their shaman staffs firsthand and each is a work of art, carved to hold the many bone and shell chips in the teeth and flippers and claws of various creatures I hope do not really exist below the ocean surface.
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Old 06-03-2015, 07:51 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Gnolls joined the rightful and true Horde of Rend Blackhand, didn't they?
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Old 06-03-2015, 07:53 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Shaman, did you get that from the RPG?
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