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Old 12-07-2016, 07:34 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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WRT to Michigan & Detroit from someone here.

It's not uncommon to describe personalities in association to their region. There's Californians, New Yorkers, Texans, and Floridians, for example. Michigan has something of its own identity and the last 30 years have done lot to erode its Midwestern ethic, chipping away its self-worth while giving ground to misunderstanding self-deprecating humor as declarations of self-destruction.

Detroit is coming back. It needs time, youth, new alternative industry, and people like me who speak on its behalf. There are people an hour's drive in any direction who feel the city is in the same condition it was in 1980s. That's imaginary.

A state needs healthy cities, healthy suburbs, and a healthy countryside. They can all be different descriptions and demonstrations of "healthy" but they need to work together. Michigan's identity has had decades of dissociative behavior.

I have hope, but the self-hate has got to stop.

Last edited by Urth; 12-07-2016 at 07:37 AM..
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  #47227  
Old 12-07-2016, 07:50 AM
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http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/90-p...-students.html

I wonder where these kids are learning this from.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:20 AM
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  #47229  
Old 12-07-2016, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
WRT to Michigan & Detroit from someone here.

It's not uncommon to describe personalities in association to their region. There's Californians, New Yorkers, Texans, and Floridians, for example. Michigan has something of its own identity and the last 30 years have done lot to erode its Midwestern ethic, chipping away its self-worth while giving ground to misunderstanding self-deprecating humor as declarations of self-destruction.

Detroit is coming back. It needs time, youth, new alternative industry, and people like me who speak on its behalf. There are people an hour's drive in any direction who feel the city is in the same condition it was in 1980s. That's imaginary.

A state needs healthy cities, healthy suburbs, and a healthy countryside. They can all be different descriptions and demonstrations of "healthy" but they need to work together. Michigan's identity has had decades of dissociative behavior.

I have hope, but the self-hate has got to stop.
Detroit always felt like a fallen empire when I lived in Michigan. You would always hear stories about its past greatest but it wasn't a place we could go back to. Parents that had to go through Detroit neighborhoods would use it as an example to encourage their kids to study and work hard.

Indianapolis is a Midwestern city that I have always found nicer. I feel a lot safer and it seems a lot cleaner. There are some scarier parts but I feel like I can avoid them or would be less likely to be murdered there. It has nice museums and restaurants. We have Lucas Oil Stadium to watch the Colts. We have a convention center that hosts things like GenCon. We can take a walk on the canal. I just always loved Indianapolis for its nice small time city feel and when you live in the suburbs it is easy to get too.
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  #47230  
Old 12-07-2016, 08:32 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Comparing Detroit to other urban centers is part of the problem.

Indianapolis' success is earned and I'm happy for you and its residents.
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  #47231  
Old 12-07-2016, 08:52 AM
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Very relevant
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  #47232  
Old 12-07-2016, 09:16 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urth View Post
WRT to Michigan & Detroit from someone here.

It's not uncommon to describe personalities in association to their region. There's Californians, New Yorkers, Texans, and Floridians, for example. Michigan has something of its own identity and the last 30 years have done lot to erode its Midwestern ethic, chipping away its self-worth while giving ground to misunderstanding self-deprecating humor as declarations of self-destruction.

Detroit is coming back. It needs time, youth, new alternative industry, and people like me who speak on its behalf. There are people an hour's drive in any direction who feel the city is in the same condition it was in 1980s. That's imaginary.

A state needs healthy cities, healthy suburbs, and a healthy countryside. They can all be different descriptions and demonstrations of "healthy" but they need to work together. Michigan's identity has had decades of dissociative behavior.

I have hope, but the self-hate has got to stop.
I *really like* state and local pride, so long as it's like the pride people have for their sports teams. (Without the rioting, mind you.)

I talk about Texas all the time. But one of my old co-workers was from Massachusetts, and he held his own remarkably well. Thanksgiving was HIS state's holiday. The American Revolution was HIS state's handiwork. In a sense, the USA was HIS state's country. Oh, he was a magnificent bastard.
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  #47233  
Old 12-07-2016, 09:30 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Comparing Detroit to other urban centers is part of the problem.

Indianapolis' success is earned and I'm happy for you and its residents.
Detroit use to be the wealthiest city in the world IICR. I think that is why people see it a certain way. Now it is full of crime and poverty. There are some nicer parts but I think the city should be see as an example of what not to do. To me it is sad to hear or remember stories from my grandfather of how Detroit use to be. Your outer suburbs still have money but Michigan in general has been on a decline for awhile now which is why I had to move to Indiana. I hope it can be turned around. Manufacturing just has to be cost effective again. I think Mitch Daniels of Indiana had the right idea and we just need some of that philosophy at the federal level. I am really hoping we get it even if there will be some painful road bumps.
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  #47234  
Old 12-07-2016, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Detroit use to be the wealthiest city in the world IICR. I think that is why people see it a certain way. Now it is full of crime and poverty.
There is crime where there is poverty. Detroit's biggest problem is the prevailing and unfortunate myth: that Detroit is dangerous to enter and experience. All urban centers have risks.

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There are some nicer parts but I think the city should be see as an example of what not to do.
This is gospel truth. Do not abandon your urban centers. Michigan lost a lot of its industrious ethic when its people decided Detroit wasn't worth the effort.

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To me it is sad to hear or remember stories from my grandfather of how Detroit use to be.
Nostalgia is the enemy. Also, reliance on the automotive industry is a crutch.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:18 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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There is crime where there is poverty. Detroit's biggest problem is the prevailing and unfortunate myth: that Detroit is dangerous to enter and experience. All urban centers have risks.
I always felt safer in Indianapolis than I did in Chicago, Detroit, or New York. Even European cities like London, Dublin, and Edinburgh felt safer.
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This is gospel truth. Do not abandon your urban centers. Michigan lost a lot of its industrious ethic when its people decided Detroit wasn't worth the effort.
Yeah but Detroit was becoming less safe. There were riots and a mayor who would demonize police and raised taxes. It made sense to flee to the suburbia of Detroit like Oakland County.
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Nostalgia is the enemy. Also, reliance on the automotive industry is a crutch.
The automotive industry is a big source of manufacturing but there are other things that can be manufactured too. The Carrier company in Indianapolis manufactured air conditioning units. Large items that are more expensive to ship are more difficult to outsource because shipping things costs money.

A centralized and landlocked region has always lent itself to manufacturing though. Look at Germany in Europe. We are closer to the natural resources and the markets to sell things too. Coastal areas like New England and the west coast get a lot of different benefits from living on the ocean than we do. It is the reason why our economies developed differently. Without our specific advantage though there is really no reason to do anything in the Midwest. We are far away from the ocean and it is cold here which isn't only uncomfortable but causes a lot of economic damage. It isn't just the Midwest that has been losing money and people. The Northeast has as well as people move to the south and the west.

I don't think the difference in cost between manufacturing something in Mexico, China, or even the south compared to the Midwest is so steep that a cut in the corporate tax rate or more sensible regulations wouldn't fix it. We are still closer to the markets, resources, and we have a higher skilled work force and can utilize more technology than they can. The rest of our economy resolves around our manufacturing so if it dies the rest of it goes too eventually.
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  #47236  
Old 12-07-2016, 10:21 AM
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Nostalgia is the enemy. Also, reliance on the automotive industry is a crutch.
Do you think the days of single industry cities have passed or do you think some new "thing" will be what completes Detroit's recovery

Also, in your view, can you summarize Detroit's initial decline?
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  #47237  
Old 12-07-2016, 10:34 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I always felt safer in Indianapolis than I did in Chicago, Detroit, or New York. Even European cities like London, Dublin, and Edinburgh felt safer.
"Felt"

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Yeah but Detroit was becoming less safe. There were riots and a mayor who would demonize police and raised taxes. It made sense to flee to the suburbia of Detroit like Oakland County.
"was"

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
The automotive industry is a big source of manufacturing but there are other things that can be manufactured too. The Carrier company in Indianapolis manufactured air conditioning units. Large items that are more expensive to ship are more difficult to outsource because shipping things costs money.

A centralized and landlocked region has always lent itself to manufacturing though. Look at Germany in Europe. We are closer to the natural resources and the markets to sell things too. Coastal areas like New England and the west coast get a lot of different benefits from living on the ocean than we do. It is the reason why our economies developed differently. Without our specific advantage though there is really no reason to do anything in the Midwest. We are far away from the ocean and it is cold here which isn't only uncomfortable but causes a lot of economic damage. It isn't just the Midwest that has been losing money and people. The Northeast has as well as people move to the south and the west.

I don't think the difference in cost between manufacturing something in Mexico, China, or even the south compared to the Midwest is so steep that a cut in the corporate tax rate or more sensible regulations wouldn't fix it. We are still closer to the markets, resources, and we have a higher skilled work force and can utilize more technology than they can. The rest of our economy resolves around our manufacturing so if it dies the rest of it goes too eventually.
You're helping to make my point that Detroit, Michigan, and the Midwest will never regain its "former glory". The world is not in the same shape it was in the 1950s, technology is exponential, and climate concerns push dollars to more temperate regions, where tanner people spend less money to stay warm.

That's not to say there isn't glory to be discovered or opportunities to be made. Those require optimism and creativity. My brother will be assuming leadership of a small custom welding company in a depressed area, and I'm scrambling to learn what I can about surrounding industry needs and potential product development.

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Do you think the days of single industry cities have passed or do you think some new "thing" will be what completes Detroit's recovery
There are dozens of organizations devoted to Detroit's urban renewal and revitalization that do tons of grunt work that never makes it to the "MSM" (lol). A LOT of the progress has been made due to Dan Gilbert's financing. He's been able to use timing to finally do what people on urban development forums have been preaching for years: start small and colonize. Gilbert claimed Campus Martius, encouraged the neighborhoods of Corktown and Midtown, and pushed from the stadiums of the Foxtown area. There are places to experience, but those places remain largely uninhabitable because the city is not conveniently walkable and is a food desert. My kingdom for a bodega.

Re: single industry towns. The question whether they are relevant is too big for me to tackle. With Detroit as the Motor City and it's automotive industry heritage... The very idea of independent transit has changed in contemporary economy, yet innovation is often squashed. I think Detroit NEEDS other opportunities and new stories. What they are is beyond me at this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Also, in your view, can you summarize Detroit's initial decline?
Not easily. It involves an understanding of centuries of history and decades of technology and flashes of racism.

Last edited by Urth; 12-07-2016 at 11:00 AM..
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  #47238  
Old 12-07-2016, 10:55 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
"Felt"
But robberies and murders are higher in Detroit than they are in Indianapolis.
Quote:
"was"
What makes it better now than living out in the suburbs? Detroit still has one of the higher tax rates and it isn't like they provide special services because of it.
Quote:
You're helping to make my point that Detroit, Michigan, and the Midwest will never regain its "former glory". The world is not in the same shape it was in the 1950s, technology is exponential, and climate concerns push dollars to more temperate regions, where tanner people spend less money to stay warm.

That's not to say there isn't glory to be discovered or opportunities to be made. Those require optimism and creativity. My brother will be assuming leadership of a small custom welding company in a depressed area, and I'm scrambling to learn what I can about surrounding industry needs and potential product development.
But that glory was lost because of a high corporate tax rate, greedy unions, and corrupt and incompetent regulators. This is something a lot of people don't want to hear. This is why the Midwest voted for Trump, Walker, Rauner, and Synder. My family works as engineers in manufacturing. This is something that is very dear to me. I don't want to become as desolate as the Dakotas or Wyoming. This trend can easily be reversed and Indiana has mitigated these loses much better than its neighbors over the last two decades and Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, and Wisconsin all copied our governing strategy to get the same results. Now they voted for Trump and several elections of congressmen that promise the same thing. We have more engineers and technicians to employ the technology that makes it better but it is something our society could work on better. I am a big fan of engineering and the trades.

Manufacturing isn't just one industry. That is ridiculous as saying that anyone that works in an office is one industry. It has more machinery and produces something tangible which is different than finance or software development. Those industries aren't negatively impacted by corrupt regulators. I am going to work in telecommunications and that isn't hurt nearly as much as manufacturing by regulatory burden. If there isn't any surrounding manufacturing though I will probably have to move to Florida or Texas or something because manufacturing brings the money in.
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  #47239  
Old 12-07-2016, 11:15 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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"Felt" meant your experiences are relative to your expectations.

"was" meant its past is not its present.

Detroit still has and will always have problems. All urban centers have problems, and all problems scale with population, property, and history.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:18 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Thank you for your PoV Urth, what is MSM Though?
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:29 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
"Felt" meant your experiences are relative to your expectations.

"was" meant its past is not its present.

Detroit still has and will always have problems. All urban centers have problems, and all problems scale with population, property, and history.
You just learn so much of Henry Ford and such in public school there but Detroit is known more for Eminem now than it is for Ford.

Detroit should clean up its spending and public work force so it can lower taxes to attract more businesses. Maybe increase its police presence to lower the murder rate.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:38 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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I don't know what Indianapolis is known for AT ALL, except that you like it, and it's in the middle of the state.

"MSM" is MainStream Media. Laughable that it can be generalized and abbreviated, and somehow denigrated for being "mainstream". What are the alternatives in a global economy & satellite technology? It's a little like when Hipsters denigrate their favorite bands when they "get too big". What happens when your favorite shouting match media outlet reaches a new and larger market?

What a lot of people don't realize is the sheer size of the city. The murders that occur in "Detroit" are nowhere near the experiential zones or neighborhoods I mentioned. Crime is still an issue, but so is finding an adequate police force for such a large, economically depressed region.

Last edited by Urth; 12-07-2016 at 11:43 AM..
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  #47243  
Old 12-07-2016, 01:05 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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  #47244  
Old 12-07-2016, 01:11 PM
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Oh now that is an incredibly bad idea

I get the intent but this ia absolutely the wrong way to do it
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:17 PM
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Oh now that is an incredibly bad idea

I get the intent but this ia absolutely the wrong way to do it
Yeah, it's pretty scary.

Especially with them going after "fake news", trying to paint that as terrorism or terrorism inspiring.

Then Obama's suggestion of a "central, reliable, hub for information".

I think he just recently said he is looking into some sort of media role post presidency as well.

Then we have the EU censoring porn and sex acts and shit.

The worlds going to hell.

I wonder if Fox news will get caught up in this
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:24 PM
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Then we have the EU censoring porn and sex acts and shit.
I think you're thinking of the UK.
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:14 PM
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I think you're thinking of the UK.
So far you fuccboi deviant.
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Old 12-07-2016, 03:31 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Yeah, it's pretty scary.

Especially with them going after "fake news", trying to paint that as terrorism or terrorism inspiring.

Then Obama's suggestion of a "central, reliable, hub for information".

I think he just recently said he is looking into some sort of media role post presidency as well.

Then we have the EU censoring porn and sex acts and shit.

The worlds going to hell.

I wonder if Fox news will get caught up in this
They will just call everything they disagree with fake news. It is just a rationalization to justify censorship. Their interpretation of the 1st Amendment doesn't mean debating their ideas anymore because they have it all figured out and all the people who do are just in the way of their glorious vision. It is why they try to control all forms of information dissemination and now they want to destroy the ones that don't fall in line.
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  #47249  
Old 12-07-2016, 06:14 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Don't you know? Teachers are just lying, just like the media, only business, military, and police are pure
I'm going to go ahead and guess that none of the conservatives replied because you stole their answer.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:18 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I'm going to go ahead and guess that none of the conservatives replied because you stole their answer.
I am sure any teacher that feels that way will settle down after the teacher's unions are busted and school choice becomes the norm once they see it isn't as bad as their union leaders fear mongered.
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