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Old 10-10-2017, 05:03 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Reading about all this makes me wonder what would happen if the South succeeded in separating from the United States. Obviously Lincoln would be remembered as the president who let it happen, but what other chaos would have happened?
Probably would have been reunited by now given their lack of industry. It'd prob be even poorer than it is today in the deep south.
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  #28727  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:14 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
Reading about all this makes me wonder what would happen if the South succeeded in separating from the United States. Obviously Lincoln would be remembered as the president who let it happen, but what other chaos would have happened?
The CSA would probably just be like a bigger North Korea, though they'd likely have completely failed/collapsed by now and possibly been reabsorbed into the proper Union. Pretty much what Levi said.
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  #28728  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:07 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Check the steampunk section of any bookstore
I enjoy the How Few Remain and Great War series, which moves to a WWI where Germany and the U.S. smash the Quadruple Entente.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Victory
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  #28729  
Old 10-11-2017, 06:41 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I enjoy the How Few Remain and Great War series, which moves to a WWI where Germany and the U.S. smash the Quadruple Entente.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Victory
I need to get around to writing that alternate history with Vikings feeling black plague Europe and settling North America while the Mali made their way to South America.

I feel as though that'd make for a sufficiently silly bit of alternate history.
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  #28730  
Old 10-11-2017, 06:49 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I need to get around to writing that alternate history with Vikings feeling black plague Europe and settling North America while the Mali made their way to South America.

I feel as though that'd make for a sufficiently silly bit of alternate history.
Make sure Mali transnavigates the globe first. Mainly so a Malinese explorer can land on Easter Island and have his crew treated as divine beings.

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Old 10-12-2017, 08:27 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Make sure Mali transnavigates the globe first. Mainly so a Malinese explorer can land on Easter Island and have his crew treated as divine beings.

Let's not get too silly.

I'd have to do the research, but I'm pretty sure Abu Bakr (2)'s ships weren't really good enough to make the trans-Atlantic trip, much less go around the Cape of Good Hope before going for a trans-Pacific trip. So I'll already need to take a few liberties with reality if I want to make the basic premise stick.

I mean, it also involves the Black Plague being even deadlier, so I guess I can't really gripe that my proposed alternate history is "realistic".
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  #28732  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:18 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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With the US vowing to violate the treaty with Iran, how do you guys think other countries will react? Will anyone trust us with treaties again?
Will the US give back the materials taken from Iran as part of the deal, or illegally steal them (which is probably an act of war)?
How much faster do you think Iran will go nuclear if this happens?
Do you think Germany, the new leader of the free world, will step up and make a new deal?
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  #28733  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:37 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
With the US vowing to violate the treaty with Iran, how do you guys think other countries will react? Will anyone trust us with treaties again?
Will the US give back the materials taken from Iran as part of the deal, or illegally steal them (which is probably an act of war)?
How much faster do you think Iran will go nuclear if this happens?
Do you think Germany, the new leader of the free world, will step up and make a new deal?
Germany? You might as well ask about Belgium. Or my neighbor Leroy, down the street.
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  #28734  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:09 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Sooo, why is the Spanish government being so incredibly stupid? Why didn't they just let Catalonia vote and then say "that's nonbinding, invalid, and means literally nothing" instead of going around beating people and physically removing ballot boxes? Do they just miss Franco that much?
I didn't even care about this issue before, but now I'm hoping Catalonia manages to secede.
It was a trap of sorts. The local police of Catalonia disobeyed the judges and didn't do their job, leaving the Spanish reinforcements alone. There's a few of top leaders being judged for sedition at the moment. Also, many of the images, specially photos, are fakes, taken from protests from years ago and such, as is the number of injured. Medical personnel from some hospitals have denounced pressure to declare everyone assisted as gravely injured and stuff like that, even things like anxiety attacks. There's been a lot of pro-Catalonia shilling all around, from communist to nazi forums, with a different story in each one as to get people sharing their bullshit.

The problem with the local police is it's pretty much a political tool since the recent purge. That same purge lead to an incredible amount of incompetence, that ignored the obvious incoming terrorist attack in Barcelona. A random house occupied by muslims blows up, with ton of explosive material lying around, and they didn't give a damn, focusing on childish fights over permits with the national anti-terrorist services that should have examined the scene. The terrorist attack could have been prevented, but wasn't because they're literal imbeciles.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
People are not happy about the way Madrid managed things, but there is no real support for Independence.
We pretty much speak of something else hoping it will go away.
Nah, there was some worry at the beginning, but then it all fade up once it was obvious it was a trap and an excuse for anti-police bullshit.

Then media has started digging shit about the nationalist government, lot of crap that's been going on since decades, but has been ignored because nationalists (Basque and Catalan) have always given the missing votes for passing budgets, laws, etc. Now it's all coming back at them.

The truth is Catalonia is a shithole:

* Education is infested with nationalistic politics. Kids are literally brainwashed to hate Spain, and to believe in a revisionist version of history about Catalonia being some great nation with thousands of years and bullshit like that, claiming that famous people across the world were secretly Catalan. Yeah, most of us just laughed at them, but eventually they went full retard.
* Spanish language is pretty much harassed, and the nationalists try to suppress it as much as possible. There's laws giving you fines if your shop's signs are in Spanish and shit like that. I'm not kidding.
* All education is in Catalan, with no Spanish-only or mixed options like in other parts of Spain. Most people talk Spanish though. The truth is that secondary languages have always been that, secondary and dying, and only started getting pushed for political motives (different language = different nation crap).
* It's the most corrupt and most debt-infested region of Spain. Most of the bailout money has gone to them, and then they've spent it on embassies, referendums, etc. Yeah, Madrid is kinda retarded for giving them money at all.
* Many of the nationalists talk about blood purity crap now and then, and insult the southern regions of Spain often.
* Lot of the pro-nationalists are immigrants from southern Spain (yeah, it's a fun contradiction with the point above).
* Catalonia is the only region of Spain with a considerable number of muslims. Why? The nationalists hate Spanish speakers, so they promoted Moroccan immigration instead of South American like the rest of Spain.
* Before this referendum, we had another illegal one (Which was a joke too), as well as plebiscite elections (where nationalists won the seats, but lost the popular vote). After that plebiscite, the left+right nationalist allied with anarch-capitalists because they didn't have enough seats to rule, and went full retard with the bullshit, losing a lot of their own party members, either to desertions or purges.
* Those same anarch-capitalists that rule with them are behind the anti-tourism campaigns, attacking shops, hotels, restaurants, etc.

The other parties didn't give a damn, or even helped with the bullshit above, just for the support of the nationalist votes in the parliament. That's how sad it is. Both Catalonia and Basque Country have always abused this to get more money for roads and trains, while the rest of Spain barely gets any large-scale investments at all. For example, nationalists always cry about the dictatorship, but the fact is that they got a lot of money back then, too, since they were friends with many of the regime's leaders which they now pretend to despise so much to play the victim.

In fact, Catalonia has always been the spoiled child of Spain. During the dictatorship, the whole textile industry was there, overpriced to hell, but Spaniards were forced to buy from them. They got the Olympics, too, paid by all of us, and they also have the better infrastructure, paid by everyone. And then they have the face to laugh at the poorer regions because they have no trains.

You want to know the whole truth about this bullshit separatist movement? They just want to run away from justice. A few years ago, the ex-wife of one of the sons of their longest-ruling president, Pujol, uncovered a whole mafia-like structure that's been going on there since before our democracy, for more than 40 years.

There's multiple corruption cases going on, but the most famous one is the "3%" case, where the ruling body took 3% in commissions for all public investments. There's an estimate of 30,000 to 50,000 millions of euros involved.

Most of that fortune is stored in Andorra, a tax haven between Spain and France. Andorra has signed to reveal customer information to the EU by January 1st 2018. They've been moving money to Switzerland for some time, but that's only delaying the inevitable.

I could go on and on, and you wouldn't even believe half of the bullshit that has been going on for so many years.

The truth is, Spaniards are tired of nationalists. Lot of people just want them to leave just to stop hearing their endless whining, because yeah, they've been crying about independence since forever. The rest of Spain is so tired of their shit, they could send tanks tomorrow, and lot of people would celebrate.

In fact, this entire ordeal has only revived Spanish patriotism all across the country, specially after the harassment the police has gotten by the nationalists.

So, what's going to happen?

Well, lot of business have run away from Catalonia, into other parts of Spain. So we're kinda winning here, lol. Our president is kinda too soft, but then again, his strategy is working wonders since nationalists love to eat each other, and without a common enemy they self-destroy pretty easily.

However, remember, the nationalist right is desperate about the corruption thing, so they might go crazy.

We'll see how things go, but as of now, Spain is winning by not doing anything. Catalonia is losing its unfair industrial monopoly, patriotism and unity is in the rise, and nationalists will probably lose the government in the next elections. No one could ever expect this scenario, it's almost like Christmas.

Meanwhile, we keep laughing at them, even harder than before.

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
Sad that the world doesn't react to Spain's aggression of Catalonia's fundamental right to choose its own future. It just shows that in the great dance of nations, there is no place for any newcomers. Hypocrites, all of them. But Catalonia needs to continue to fight. Or else, in five years, all of this enthusiasm will be gone and just like Quebec, they will neither be dead nor alive, simply there. To think we'll die under a country that's not even ours. What could we possibly have done to deserve this?

I always wanted Quebec to be the first of the Quebec-Scottland-Catalonia trio to become its own country. I would have wanted us to lead the way for once. But since that is no longer a possibility, may Catalonia do it and maybe rekindle the flame.
Yeah, let's shit on the constitution and pretty much all laws!

There's legal ways to do this, but they never take them, because then there wouldn't be conflict and they wouldn't be able to play the victim.

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
I mean lets not pretend like a huge part of the region wants independence. The parts of the region that have the money are the ones that want to stay in Spain and the poorer areas want independence. I'd wager it's based on a misguided belief that independence means money will suddenly go to them. The voting is also just as useful as Puerto Rico statehood voting due to so few people actually voting as there's a good chance many people that didn't vote were the ones that were going to say no (why vote when it's an illegal vote anyway).
It's actually the opposite. It's the rich trying to leave, because they feel robbed by the poorer regions.

Also, contrary to popular belief, Galicia, Valencia, Mallorca, and Andalucia have pretty much zero separatism. Only Catalonia and the Basque Country have anything like that, and neither of them is represented by a clear majority.

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Basically this.

Nationalistic separatist movements on the rise throughout the world isn't a good thing. The world needs more unity right now, not less.
Careful there, both of the separatist movement from Spain have nothing to do with the nationalism you see rising across Europe. Both the Basque and Catalan separatists are pretty left-leaning, pro-refugees, pro-Europe.

There's no "real right" in Spain, at least for now. I wouldn't be surprised if they rise for the next elections, and get seats for the first time since the dictatorship ended.

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
Why should Catalonia follow the constitution for their vote to leave the constitution when said constitution (which was meant to be temporary yet still is there) forbids such a vote? That is absolutely illogical.
Stop lying, the constitution allows a vote just fine. However, everyone has to vote, since every Spaniard holds sovereignity for the whole of Spain. You can change the constitution too.

And by this point, I'm sure a lot of Spaniards would support independence, just to get rid of the whining and the insults.
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  #28735  
Old 10-13-2017, 05:07 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
It was a trap of sorts. The local police of Catalonia disobeyed the judges and didn't do their job, leaving the Spanish reinforcements alone. There's a few of top leaders being judged for sedition at the moment. Also, many of the images, specially photos, are fakes, taken from protests from years ago and such, as is the number of injured. Medical personnel from some hospitals have denounced pressure to declare everyone assisted as gravely injured and stuff like that, even things like anxiety attacks. There's been a lot of pro-Catalonia shilling all around, from communist to nazi forums, with a different story in each one as to get people sharing their bullshit.
The exact number of "gravely injured" is irrelevant. The fact is that a nation that was fascist not long before we were born decided it was a good idea to send police in to beat people for participating in an election that would effectively mean nothing. In free countries, that kind of thing is unacceptable.
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  #28736  
Old 10-13-2017, 05:39 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Poor Spain they're the Russia of western Europe due to all their political issues.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:56 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
The exact number of "gravely injured" is irrelevant. The fact is that a nation that was fascist not long before we were born decided it was a good idea to send police in to beat people for participating in an election that would effectively mean nothing. In free countries, that kind of thing is unacceptable.
They were blacklisting people not participating, using personal data of citizens illegally to check who was going to vote or not. The regional government was literally blackmailing public officers to go vote or face the consequences: Get fired. It was a witch hunt disguised as democracy, a faction exerting power and intimidation over everyone who doesn't think their way. And let's not even start with the whole misappropriation of public funds to pay nationalist businesses to produce all the material for the illegal referendum.

If that's not enough for you to stop that joke of a referendum (the second one we've had, by the way) then I don't know what you're expecting the government to do. If it's illegal, it's illegal, and must be stopped. It only got that far because it was a literal ambush, with the regional police not doing their job, and in some cases, even helping break the law. They either got their way, or they didn't. I'd rather they don't, or we'll stop being that free country you so much love.

But hey, at the end both sides got what they wanted. Nationalists play the victim for their minute of glory, and the government proved they are violent thugs who would leave our previous dictator as an amateur if left unchecked. You also conveniently forgot that the ones getting beaten support one of the factions that benefited the most from the fascist dictatorship, too.

Funny to get police brutality lessons coming from the "shoot first ask later" country, anyway.

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Poor Spain they're the Russia of western Europe due to all their political issues.
It's not that bad. I blame our electoral system, the lack of patriotism, and the unchecked political agendas.
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  #28738  
Old 10-13-2017, 06:28 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
They were blacklisting people not participating, using personal data of citizens illegally to check who was going to vote or not. The regional government was literally blackmailing public officers to go vote or face the consequences: Get fired. It was a witch hunt disguised as democracy, a faction exerting power and intimidation over everyone who doesn't think their way. And let's not even start with the whole misappropriation of public funds to pay nationalist businesses to produce all the material for the illegal referendum.

If that's not enough for you to stop that joke of a referendum (the second one we've had, by the way) then I don't know what you're expecting the government to do. If it's illegal, it's illegal, and must be stopped. It only got that far because it was a literal ambush, with the regional police not doing their job, and in some cases, even helping break the law. They either got their way, or they didn't. I'd rather they don't, or we'll stop being that free country you so much love.

But hey, at the end both sides got what they wanted. Nationalists play the victim for their minute of glory, and the government proved they are violent thugs who would leave our previous dictator as an amateur if left unchecked. You also conveniently forgot that the ones getting beaten support one of the factions that benefited the most from the fascist dictatorship, too.

Funny to get police brutality lessons coming from the "shoot first ask later" country, anyway.
In no part of this post do I see where it became reasonable for the Spanish government to send federales to go beat people for taking part in a nonbinding vote.
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Old 10-14-2017, 04:17 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Germany? You might as well ask about Belgium. Or my neighbor Leroy, down the street.
It's not like the leader of the free world is not a hollow and ultimately idiotic term to begin with.
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:02 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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In no part of this post do I see where it became reasonable for the Spanish government to send federales to go beat people for taking part in a nonbinding vote.
If your job is to take illegal material away from some people holding an illegal referendum, and they barricade and answer with violence, what the hell are you gonna do? Just go away?

They didn't just take ballots boxes away, you know.
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:22 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
If your job is to take illegal material away from some people holding an illegal referendum, and they barricade and answer with violence, what the hell are you gonna do? Just go away?

They didn't just take ballots boxes away, you know.
Why was it decided it was necessary to engage with the voters? Why escalate? I see no reason why the Spanish government couldn't have just let it go to prevent violence and denounce the vote.
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Old 10-15-2017, 04:13 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Why was it decided it was necessary to engage with the voters? Why escalate? I see no reason why the Spanish government couldn't have just let it go to prevent violence and denounce the vote.
Are you even reading my replies? They were building a black list of who was going to vote or not, because those against independence weren't going to go vote at all. There's already been a few purges of those "not enthusiastic enough with the cause".

The government should have stopped the bullshit long ago. It's been 5 years of this, including another illegal referendum, where they also disobeyed and weren't stopped to vote, and a plebiscite. It's the government's fault for not stopping this earlier, but the police did their job right, and exactly as it's done any time there are violent protestors anywhere else in the free world.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:14 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Are you even reading my replies? They were building a black list of who was going to vote or not, because those against independence weren't going to go vote at all. There's already been a few purges of those "not enthusiastic enough with the cause".
Irrelevant.

Quote:
The government should have stopped the bullshit long ago. It's been 5 years of this, including another illegal referendum, where they also disobeyed and weren't stopped to vote, and a plebiscite. It's the government's fault for not stopping this earlier, but the police did their job right, and exactly as it's done any time there are violent protestors anywhere else in the free world.
I wasn't aware of the protesters being violent until the federales came along and started forcing their way through.
There seems to be a gap in logic here. That or Spaniards are still way too fascist and incapable of communicating without violence.
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:36 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I wasn't aware of the protesters being violent until the federales came along and started forcing their way through.
Then that's where you should begin, instead of propagating nationalist bullshit. Start by removing that "federal" adjective, we have nothing like that in the first place. Also, you must be stupid or outright malicious to think the police would charge without any reason in the first place.

Poor nazis getting their witch hunt ruined by the evil anti-democratic police.
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:56 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Then that's where you should begin, instead of propagating nationalist bullshit. Start by removing that "federal" adjective, we have nothing like that in the first place. Also, you must be stupid or outright malicious to think the police would charge without any reason in the first place.

Poor nazis getting their witch hunt ruined by the evil anti-democratic police.
So you're saying that it was Catalon police who were attacking innocent voters at the behest of the Spanish government and that makes it better somehow?
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Old 10-27-2017, 03:55 AM
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Goddammit Lon-ami. I know how much you hate the nationalists and I don't care about how much overly-exaggerated bullshit you spout about Catalonia (guys, the net is big. Search about it and you'll see how different reality is) but there's a limit to the amount of hate-speech propaganda you can spread until you start to openly insult people.
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:20 AM
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Let's take the tone down a few ticks, shall we? This is obviously a contentious issue, but we don't need to work ourselves up into a froth over it (or at least not yet anyway).
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:01 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Whitrix View Post
Goddammit Lon-ami. I know how much you hate the nationalists and I don't care about how much overly-exaggerated bullshit you spout about Catalonia (guys, the net is big. Search about it and you'll see how different reality is) but there's a limit to the amount of hate-speech propaganda you can spread until you start to openly insult people.
You're free to prove me wrong whenever you want.

Meanwhile, for the English speakers, this can help, and be a good start:


Not perfect, but as I said, a good introduction for outsiders.
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  #28749  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:43 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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"Spain" or "democracy". Pick one and only one, for they are forever incompatible.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brojar View Post
i literally just shit my pants with rage
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  #28750  
Old 10-27-2017, 09:17 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Trickster, take a look at Cantus's post. Is there any need to add fuel to the fire?
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for the many not the few, politics, red and black

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