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  #176  
Old 09-04-2010, 04:07 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
I have 2 new big questions, important ones that could be answered soon, since they are related to Cataclysm stuff in a way:

Dwarf subraces

We know each of the 3 clans is composed by an unique subrace. Wildhammers are taller and stronger than their Bronzebeard cousins, while Dark Irons have a dark skin. We've seen different naming conventions:

-Bronzebeard clan: Ironforge dwarf, Mountain dwarf
-Wildhammer clan: Wildhammer dwarf, Wild dwarf, Hill dwarf
-Dark Iron clan: Dark Iron dwarf

My question is, which are the accurate descriptions for each subrace? I think Bronzebeards are "mountain", because Muradin is called like that by the Frostborn, but the other 2 are still pretty ambiguous.

Orc's black skin and Dragonmaw activity at Twilight Highlands

Orcs living around Blackrock mountain seem to have been affected by the environment, much like the Dark Iron dwarves, and have developed a black skin. Before Cataclysm, the only known Dragonmaw activity was a minor group at Wetlands, and they had green yellowish skin. Zuluhed, at Outland, showed the same skin color, too.

But now, the Dragonmaws at Twilight Highlands show black skin, too. So, the volcanic environment isn't responsible for the black skin, or the Dragonmaw at Twilight Highlands were part of the Dark Horde, and fled to the zone not so long ago?
i think the first can be answered by looking at the war of the three hammer article in wowwiki, and the second is a cataclysm question

Added the questions but marked them as purple and red
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  #177  
Old 09-04-2010, 04:11 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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i think the first can be answered by looking at the war of the three hammer article in wowwiki, and the second is a cataclysm question
No, it can't. It's been a long debate between Baggins and others, like Rolandius and me :S.
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  #178  
Old 09-04-2010, 04:20 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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No, it can't. It's been a long debate between Baggins and others, like Rolandius and me :S.
Well the description that i remeber is that willhammer lived in the hills bronzebeard inside the mountain and dark iron in the shadow of the mountain or below it, i'll remove the purple because i can't find the article
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  #179  
Old 09-05-2010, 07:22 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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New question that's been bothering me for a while:

What are the Azotha, and how do they fit into the Vrykul > Human evolutionary chain?
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  #180  
Old 09-05-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
New question that's been bothering me for a while:

What are the Azotha, and how do they fit into the Vrykul > Human evolutionary chain?
The Azotha are the deformed children of the Vrykul that they cast off, they landed on Lorderon and started to form societys. They eventually themselves became the humans over generations, got smaller.
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  #181  
Old 09-05-2010, 09:38 AM
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The Azotha are the deformed children of the Vrykul that they cast off, they landed on Lorderon and started to form societys. They eventually themselves became the humans over generations, got smaller.
Says who?

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
I have 2 new big questions, important ones that could be answered soon, since they are related to Cataclysm stuff in a way:

Dwarf subraces

We know each of the 3 clans is composed by an unique subrace. Wildhammers are taller and stronger than their Bronzebeard cousins, while Dark Irons have a dark skin. We've seen different naming conventions:

-Bronzebeard clan: Ironforge dwarf, Mountain dwarf
-Wildhammer clan: Wildhammer dwarf, Wild dwarf, Hill dwarf
-Dark Iron clan: Dark Iron dwarf

My question is, which are the accurate descriptions for each subrace? I think Bronzebeards are "mountain", because Muradin is called like that by the Frostborn, but the other 2 are still pretty ambiguous.

Orc's black skin and Dragonmaw activity at Twilight Highlands

Orcs living around Blackrock mountain seem to have been affected by the environment, much like the Dark Iron dwarves, and have developed a black skin. Before Cataclysm, the only known Dragonmaw activity was a minor group at Wetlands, and they had green yellowish skin. Zuluhed, at Outland, showed the same skin color, too.

But now, the Dragonmaws at Twilight Highlands show black skin, too. So, the volcanic environment isn't responsible for the black skin, or the Dragonmaw at Twilight Highlands were part of the Dark Horde, and fled to the zone not so long ago?
You really do not know how many questions you are asking. Your questions build on assumptions. I'll try to break it up, which would be best if you want at least some real answers.

Are each of the three dwarf clans is composed of a unique dwarf subrace?

What is a "mountain dwarf"? (also good if you say where the terms are from)

What is a "wild dwarf"?

What is a "hill dwarf"?

What is the best name for each dwarf subrace?

Do orcs living in and around Blackrock Mountain have black skin because of the ash, natural skin pigments, or what?

Why do the Dragonmaw orcs have black skin if they have not been shown to live around Blackrock mountain, and had yellow-green skin before?

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Originally Posted by Ashendant View Post
Well the description that i remeber is that willhammer lived in the hills bronzebeard inside the mountain and dark iron in the shadow of the mountain or below it, i'll remove the purple because i can't find the article
http://www.wowwiki.com/War_of_the_Th...of_Warcraft%29
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Last edited by Revenant; 09-05-2010 at 09:57 AM..
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  #182  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:23 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Says who?
Lands of Conflict said that the Azotha were the early humans who had some ambiguous connection to the Titans. Finding out about the Vyrkul sending off their "mutant" children seals that conenction. Vykrul > Azotha > Human.

It should be noted that whetehr Azotha were physically different from humans or not has never been stated, so it seems Azotha is basically just the name given to the early humans.
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  #183  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:25 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
Lands of Conflict said that the Azotha were the early humans who had some ambiguous connection to the Titans. Finding out about the Vyrkul sending off their "mutant" children seals that conenction. Vykrul > Azotha > Human.

It should be noted that whetehr Azotha were physically different from humans or not has never been stated, so it seems Azotha is basically just the name given to the early humans.
This is what confuses me though. Azotha supposedly have dwarven abilities; aren't there even modern day women who claim to be descendants of the Azotha, and thus have the ability to turn to stone?

Sisters of Steel or something.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #184  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
This is what confuses me though. Azotha supposedly have dwarven abilities; aren't there even modern day women who claim to be descendants of the Azotha, and thus have the ability to turn to stone?

Sisters of Steel or something.
Personally, I don't think the Azotha were a separate species or genetically distinct from modern humans. I think they were a tribe of humans that inhabited modern day Stranglethorn Vale and the southern Eastern Kingdoms, and may have had a hand in founding Stormwind. The Azotha and Arathi were both tribes of humans, but there was no genetic distinction between them.
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  #185  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Shit.

*Flash of light*

Could the magnataur be related to the Tol'vir? I know it's just a mad assumption, but Blizzard said there were Tol'vir communities at Northrend, that were transformed into obsidian destroyers.

Could they be related somehow?

(this is nothing but an addition to the above question )
yeah, thats what i meant
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  #186  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:00 PM
Schro Schro is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
This is what confuses me though. Azotha supposedly have dwarven abilities; aren't there even modern day women who claim to be descendants of the Azotha, and thus have the ability to turn to stone?

Sisters of Steel or something.

Well its not really dwarven abilities. Its more abilities of their artificial ancestors.
Though not confirmed, it seems possible that the original Vrykul were made of stone. Hence why some humans can gain these abilities.

Also as shown by events in Uldum, the curse of flesh can be magically removed. Which could show that despite being flesh, they still have a connection to the composition of the original titan design.
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  #187  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:04 PM
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I'm thinking if I give out the question will Blizzard change the quest to totally destroy this character?
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  #188  
Old 09-05-2010, 08:10 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
This is what confuses me though. Azotha supposedly have dwarven abilities; aren't there even modern day women who claim to be descendants of the Azotha, and thus have the ability to turn to stone?

Sisters of Steel or something.
Where does it says that Azotha had dwarven abilities?

Sisters of Steel is a "modern" thing. They aren't like extinct or something.
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  #189  
Old 09-06-2010, 04:59 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Ashendant View Post
Well the description that i remeber is that willhammer lived in the hills bronzebeard inside the mountain and dark iron in the shadow of the mountain or below it, i'll remove the purple because i can't find the article
That's unrelated to my question, I don't care where they lived .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
You really do not know how many questions you are asking. Your questions build on assumptions. I'll try to break it up, which would be best if you want at least some real answers.

Are each of the three dwarf clans is composed of a unique dwarf subrace?

What is a "mountain dwarf"? (also good if you say where the terms are from)

What is a "wild dwarf"?

What is a "hill dwarf"?

What is the best name for each dwarf subrace?

Do orcs living in and around Blackrock Mountain have black skin because of the ash, natural skin pigments, or what?

Why do the Dragonmaw orcs have black skin if they have not been shown to live around Blackrock mountain, and had yellow-green skin before?
Those are too ambiguous. I think it's better to ask related stuff, so it has some meaning, and by the way, remember they their own lore.

As for the Dragonmaws, my theory is that they were at Blackrock mountain until some time ago, where they left and tried to retake Twilight Highlands.

We know the dwarves of each main clans are different physically, so yeah, they are different subspecies, the problem is their naming convention.
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  #190  
Old 09-06-2010, 10:00 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Those are too ambiguous. I think it's better to ask related stuff, so it has some meaning, and by the way, remember they their own lore.
They're not. His format is much better.

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As for the Dragonmaws, my theory is that they were at Blackrock mountain until some time ago, where they left and tried to retake Twilight Highlands.
Except we know that’s not true, and that they’ve been at or around Grim Batol since the second war, which was only shortly after BRM was claimed as a base anyway.

I think Dragonmaw having a unique skin (the new cataclysm grey, which is a straight-up change from the yellowish-green tone ((not unique)) their NPCs used in vanilla and I can almost guarantee will have no explanation) is further proof that the orcs divided amongst clan lines having different skin tones is like I’ve been saying the whole time, due to ethnicity. A blackrock orc has a different skin color than a Frostwolf, just like someone from a Mediterranean country might have a different skin color than a Scandinavian.
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  #191  
Old 09-06-2010, 09:36 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
I think Dragonmaw having a unique skin (the new cataclysm grey, which is a straight-up change from the yellowish-green tone ((not unique)) their NPCs used in vanilla and I can almost guarantee will have no explanation) is further proof that the orcs divided amongst clan lines having different skin tones is like I’ve been saying the whole time, due to ethnicity. A blackrock orc has a different skin color than a Frostwolf, just like someone from a Mediterranean country might have a different skin color than a Scandinavian.
So ethnicity is protection from turning green like every other orc? That doesn't make sense. We know they were green from lore... except this one cool ethnicity?
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  #192  
Old 09-07-2010, 03:31 AM
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Yeah, they were green.

Blackhand at Karazhan is green. Nek'rosh Skullcrusher and his troops are yellow-green. Zuluhed is green.

This has nothing to do with ethnicity. At all.
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  #193  
Old 09-07-2010, 06:23 AM
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Do either of you know what an ethnicity is?

This should help.
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  #194  
Old 09-07-2010, 09:27 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Yeah, they were green.

Blackhand at Karazhan is green. Nek'rosh Skullcrusher and his troops are yellow-green. Zuluhed is green.

This has nothing to do with ethnicity. At all.
They almost certainly simply forgot to give Blackhand the Blackrock skin, since his appearance was rather unimportant.

I’m not in beta, but if the Dragonmaw skin is now that default grey-ish, I imagine the other Dragonmaw will simply be retconed in accordance to have always been that way.

We know the Dragonmaw skin-tone is not from Blackrock Mountain “Ash,” because the Dragonmaw were never there - they were stationed at and stayed in the Grim Batol area and this is documented. Their presence in the Grim Batol area is, in fact, the reason we’re given for teaming up with them.

We know that even the Blackrock skin-tone isn’t from Blackrock mountain Ash, because Eitrigg has it and he never lived there for any amount of time. We’ve also got Trolls and Orge tribes who lived in the mountain for the same duration of time and haven’t turned gray from omnipresent ash.

The Blackrock skin-tone is more gray than usual, but its still green-ish enough to work and is still clearly more green than brown.


The new dragonmaw skin is an even more radical departure, and it was presumably done for gameplay purposes to make the Dragonmaw more visually distinct, but they have given no indication EVER as to why orcs from different clans have slightly different skin colors and when you consider that clans lived separately in different areas of Draenor, just as humans did on earth, the simplest answer is that they look different simply because they are of different groups, ethnicities or races or whatever you want to call it - I don’t want to get into a pointless Rolandius-style classification/semantic argument over whether they are “sub-races.”
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  #195  
Old 09-07-2010, 10:07 AM
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Good point with Eitrigg, didn't remember it, but in the end could be the same argument used for Blackhand having green skin.

My problem isn't with "each clan has a different color", it's with "membersof the same clan have different colors", as shown by the Dragonmaw skins.

My "explanation" for it is that those Dragonmaws were stationed at Blackrock mountain, and that they were changed the same way Blackrocks were (by the environment). Later, they simply moved on back to Twilight Highlands, and found Wildhammer dwarves had started moving on, too.

Would explain some things:
-Why we didn't hear anything about them still around the zone (although it's irrelevant, since we never heard in-game of new expansion content before it's implemented).
-Why the Dragonmaws at Wetlands (and Zuluhed) were green-yellow.
-Why Mor'ghor leads the clan (supposing they joined forces to go back to Twilight Highlands).
-Why Nek'rosh lived in a hole at Wetlands, when he was the son of the second-in-command.
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  #196  
Old 09-07-2010, 10:56 AM
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The two unifying features of both the blackrock orcs and the dragonmaw are gray skin and a connection to black dragons. While this is just conjecture, maybe prolonged exposure to black dragons in some capacity darkened their skin?
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  #197  
Old 09-07-2010, 11:01 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Good point with Eitrigg, didn't remember it, but in the end could be the same argument used for Blackhand having green skin.
Not really, because to change Eitrigg to a blackrock skin would require a conscious decision to do so. As in, “Hey, I remembered he’s a Blackrock so he looks like this.” He wouldn’t just normally have that skin as a default. With Blackhand, player-style green is the default, so if you didn’t know/remember that he was a Blackrock, he’d have looked like a default orc - which he does.


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My problem isn't with "each clan has a different color", it's with "membersof the same clan have different colors", as shown by the Dragonmaw skins.
Again, it depends. Did they keep the yellowish-green on the Old Dragonmaw NPCs? Or have all members of the Dragonmaw Clan been shifted to the new color in Cataclysm? Its probably just a visual retcon, like Akama and his crew “always” having looked like Broken rather than “Lost Ones.”

I’ll further add, there is nothing that says it was Ash that made the Blackrock Orcs gray to begin with, so prefacing the entire Dragonmaw coloration on that lacks a solid foundation.

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The two unifying features of both the blackrock orcs and the dragonmaw are gray skin and a connection to black dragons. While this is just conjecture, maybe prolonged exposure to black dragons in some capacity darkened their skin?
Eitrigg would throw a hole in this theory as well.
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  #198  
Old 09-07-2010, 12:57 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Does anybody want to put any of that in form of a question?
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  #199  
Old 09-07-2010, 04:30 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Does anybody want to put any of that in form of a question?
How about: Why do orcs like the Blackrock and Dragonmaw have unique skin colors? Is it due to ethnicity, exposure to ash, or something else?
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  #200  
Old 09-07-2010, 05:12 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
How about: Why do orcs like the Blackrock and Dragonmaw have unique skin colors? Is it due to ethnicity, exposure to ash, or something else?
Added

I'm going to ask again if anybody is going to offer himself to post some of these questions?
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