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  #51  
Old 02-10-2021, 09:47 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Refresh my memory Did they bring zip ties, pipe bombs, and kill several people?
It may shock you that I actually know someone who was there, and there was no such thing.

Believe whatever you like.

Then maybe read a little about the Reichstag fire.
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  #52  
Old 02-11-2021, 12:29 PM
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It may shock you that I actually know someone who was there, and there was no such thing.

Believe whatever you like.

Then maybe read a little about the Reichstag fire.
Or the Beer Hall Putsch.

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Nah, an insurrection would be something, like, spending months burning thousands of stores because some innocent criminal died at the hands of a racist policeman; oh wait, forget that.

You know how these lunatics work, let them choose between a friendly psychopath (Obama destroying the Middle East) and an angry pacifist (Trump's anti-war stance), and they will clap for the psychopath; and you better clap too, you fucking fascist scum.
Lol, yeah maybe if words such as "insurrection" and "anti-war" can mean anything we want them to, you are right. This word salad comes across so desperate and out of reality, it's embarrassing.
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2021, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
It may shock you that I actually know someone who was there, and there was no such thing.

Believe whatever you like.

Then maybe read a little about the Reichstag fire.
May want to look at the impeachment videos and other very public images that the insurrectionists posted to Parler of their own volition.

The pipe bomb was targeted at the DNCC and RNCC buildings.

The insurrectionists killed one cop, beat/gouged out the eyes, etc of others, and also trampled at least one of their own in the ensuing chaos.

Babbitt was very clearly shot trying to breach a secured area.

And yeah, the zip tie guys (there were multiple different ones) definitely showed up. The FBI isn't charging them for stealing kids' ice cream.
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Old 02-12-2021, 07:13 AM
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And then there's info like this: https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status...005326339?s=20

This was very much a case of radicalization by Trump and those looking to capitalize on his cult of personality. The Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were drivers and agitators to a crowd primed by its thought leaders with fear. It was a cascade of events that turned into a spiral of violence as the agitators found further successes in the building and pushed the mob to follow them.

There were also notable instances of individuals/groups leaving when the protest became violent, but those aren't the individuals who will be charged with criminal trespass and other crimes.
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Old 02-13-2021, 11:48 AM
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May want to look at the impeachment videos and other very public images that the insurrectionists posted to Parler of their own volition.

The pipe bomb was targeted at the DNCC and RNCC buildings.

The insurrectionists killed one cop, beat/gouged out the eyes, etc of others, and also trampled at least one of their own in the ensuing chaos.

Babbitt was very clearly shot trying to breach a secured area.

And yeah, the zip tie guys (there were multiple different ones) definitely showed up. The FBI isn't charging them for stealing kids' ice cream.
They didn't bring zip ties. While there were multiple people seen with flex cuffs (two in photographic evidence), said flex cuffs were found inside the capitol.

Quote:
According to the memo, the cell phone footage also captured the moment when Munchel acquired the plastic handcuffs he was later photographed holding.

"At one point, Munchel spots plastic handcuffs on a table inside a hallway in the Capitol," lawyers wrote in the memo. "Munchel exclaims, 'Zipties. I need to get me some of them [expletive],' and grabs several white plastic handcuffs from on top of a cabinet..."
This isn't new. This has been known for nearly a month. The Lawyers are DOJ prosecution and was done in an argument to keep him in custody.
It never made it into national news reporting of the incident, as far as I am aware.

Just as point of fact. Arrest the people involved, they are idiots.

But the "zip tie guy" famous in the pictures, actively didn't take weapons into the capitol because it was a federal crime.

Quote:
“We’re going straight to federal prison if we go in there with weapons,” Eisenhart allegedly says in the video. When Munchel agrees, she reportedly suggests they stash the weapons in a backpack.
Now, of course, they likely shouldn't have had weapons in Washington D.C., and sure, depending on what weapons they were charge them accordingly as well, as the news story doesn't say what type of weapons in regards to knives or guns or other.

But for the most part, that boils down to left vs right wing protestors.

Right-wing protestors tend to bring guns.
Left-wing protestors should probably start. Cops would fuck with them less. A pretty famous black panther case about this in California, if memory serves.

All of that to say.

Bolvar is right. They didn't bring the zip ties.

The cops and other stuff.. Well, that's much less of a "didn't happen" and more of a "sure, arrest the people involved"

EDIT: Of course, as needs to be said, this message is not condoning the actions of people rioting, and as said multiple times throughout the post, prosecute them to the full extent of the law based on evidence and investigation.

Don't riot folks.
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  #56  
Old 02-14-2021, 10:39 AM
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I've yet to see a direct piece of news from a reliable (read, non-rightwing) source that shows the flexcuffs were just randomly available for use in the middle of the Capitol. If you can point me to it, that would be appreciated, but until then I'm going to be very skeptical of anecdotal evidence given just how premeditated some of those insurrectionists actions were.
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  #57  
Old 02-14-2021, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
It may shock you that I actually know someone who was there, and there was no such thing.

Believe whatever you like.

Then maybe read a little about the Reichstag fire.
https://abcn.ws/3oxcBef


https://www.wishtv.com/news/politics...fore-fbi-says/


Huh, what're those?

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Bolvar is right. They didn't bring the zip ties.
You yourself make the note of the Flex Cuffs which are what everyone's referring to.
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  #58  
Old 02-14-2021, 04:10 PM
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https://twitter.com/davetroy/status/...848524800?s=20

A fantastic thread showcasing just how much of this is built off of QAnon insanity and disinfo.
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Old 02-14-2021, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
I've yet to see a direct piece of news from a reliable (read, non-rightwing) source that shows the flexcuffs were just randomly available for use in the middle of the Capitol. If you can point me to it, that would be appreciated, but until then I'm going to be very skeptical of anecdotal evidence given just how premeditated some of those insurrectionists actions were.
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/n...d-ebb9e3855e0e

Again. It never has made it passed local news, as far as I'm aware.

Quote:
You yourself make the note of the Flex Cuffs which are what everyone's referring to.
And they were grabbed from inside the capitol. They were not brought with them.

Again, this is from a Department of Justice Memo about a video they have, while they are trying to tell the judge to actively keep "zip tie guy" detained until trial. For them to say, when they want him behind bars, that the flex-cuffs were found inside the capital is pretty definitive.
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  #60  
Old 02-14-2021, 08:53 PM
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And they were grabbed from inside the capitol. They were not brought with them.
So?

Why exactly do you think he took them if not to take people hostage?
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  #61  
Old 02-14-2021, 09:44 PM
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So?

Why exactly do you think he took them if not to take people hostage?
One is the truth. The other is not. It can't get more "so" than that. And from a legal stand point, it is a MASSIVE deal. Just off the bat, it will depend on if Burglary charges can be filed against them and used, which would say, potentially enable them to be charged with murder in the first degree under Federal Murder statutes.

Also, as an aside..

Quote:
The insurrectionists killed one cop
This one is up for debate as well, by the way, from a legal stand point. While I am a long defender on this site of saying throwing anything at peoples heads is stupid and dangerous (and even having it largely dismissed when it was bike locks and bottles and bags of rocks ), as per CNN there was no blunt force trauma to indicate cause of death.

As per Forbes, there is no clear evidence in any interaction of Sicknick obtaining injuries, and last I heard it is being considered to be pepper or bear spray that triggered his death. Another thing I've warned against in the past as being possibly fatal, funny enough. I know this has been updated retroactively and not really "announced" so you might have to go back and read old articles..

Now, generally, people in a riot have a bit of protection because the law recognizes mob mentality in how it charges things. It is why rioting and such is not included in federal law statute regarding murder, and why you aren't likely to see murder charges filed on the entire mob if someone is killed.

You might be able to get a subset of the rioters under Burglary charges since it is a pretty wide net(and where the flex cuffs being found matter or not) , but its unlikely because you have to have pretty solid timing to get it to stick.

Either way, "Killed one cop" is legally incorrect. At the moment, it is "One cop died during the insurrection attempt"

Which is again, not a defense of these people. Charge them as should be charged.
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Old 02-14-2021, 09:54 PM
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Old 02-14-2021, 10:11 PM
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Yeah?

Like he says, most of these people who will be charged will not be charged with sexy things. It's going to be mundane and obscure laws, primarily focused on public and verifiably people. Almost no one is getting charged with insurrection, or with any other fancy thing.

Anti-terror laws, existing gun laws, destruction of property, a host of defacement laws. And even then, as Legal Eagle makes a mention of, they will be applied lightly so as to not set precedent to be used on other rioters in other circumstances.

The main people who are going to be charged with big flashy stuff are the ones where intent can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and intent is very very hard to prove and intent holds weight in legal situations. The rest of the people are going to be charged with more mundane shit.

See Clinton's Email server and why she was not charged. Intent was not there. And no, that isn't a "but but but her emails" argument. I'm using it as an example that should still be nationally relevant and fresh in peoples minds.

And of course, they all deserve those charges. Don't show up to a riot, or a situation where a riot has a chance to occur. If you do, and you participate (and human mentality says you will participate), you deserve the consequences.
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Old 02-15-2021, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Yeah?

Like he says, most of these people who will be charged will not be charged with sexy things. It's going to be mundane and obscure laws, primarily focused on public and verifiably people. Almost no one is getting charged with insurrection, or with any other fancy thing.

Anti-terror laws, existing gun laws, destruction of property, a host of defacement laws. And even then, as Legal Eagle makes a mention of, they will be applied lightly so as to not set precedent to be used on other rioters in other circumstances.

The main people who are going to be charged with big flashy stuff are the ones where intent can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and intent is very very hard to prove and intent holds weight in legal situations. The rest of the people are going to be charged with more mundane shit.

See Clinton's Email server and why she was not charged. Intent was not there. And no, that isn't a "but but but her emails" argument. I'm using it as an example that should still be nationally relevant and fresh in peoples minds.

And of course, they all deserve those charges. Don't show up to a riot, or a situation where a riot has a chance to occur. If you do, and you participate (and human mentality says you will participate), you deserve the consequences.
All I'm doing at this point is posting evidence that this wasn't a benign protest and that Trump has significantly changed the discourse to the point he's culpable (something the non-QAnon GOP has even admitted). Beyond that, I'm not going to argue just how people will be charged because I'm not a lawyer.
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Old 02-15-2021, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
One is the truth. The other is not. It can't get more "so" than that. And from a legal stand point, it is a MASSIVE deal. Just off the bat, it will depend on if Burglary charges can be filed against them and used, which would say, potentially enable them to be charged with murder in the first degree under Federal Murder statutes.

Also, as an aside..



This one is up for debate as well, by the way, from a legal stand point. While I am a long defender on this site of saying throwing anything at peoples heads is stupid and dangerous (and even having it largely dismissed when it was bike locks and bottles and bags of rocks ), as per CNN there was no blunt force trauma to indicate cause of death.

As per Forbes, there is no clear evidence in any interaction of Sicknick obtaining injuries, and last I heard it is being considered to be pepper or bear spray that triggered his death. Another thing I've warned against in the past as being possibly fatal, funny enough. I know this has been updated retroactively and not really "announced" so you might have to go back and read old articles..

Now, generally, people in a riot have a bit of protection because the law recognizes mob mentality in how it charges things. It is why rioting and such is not included in federal law statute regarding murder, and why you aren't likely to see murder charges filed on the entire mob if someone is killed.

You might be able to get a subset of the rioters under Burglary charges since it is a pretty wide net(and where the flex cuffs being found matter or not) , but its unlikely because you have to have pretty solid timing to get it to stick.

Either way, "Killed one cop" is legally incorrect. At the moment, it is "One cop died during the insurrection attempt"

Which is again, not a defense of these people. Charge them as should be charged.
Watching the maga-sphere equivocate and do pedantic hair-splitting is pretty funny and delusional, but not at all surprising. I mean that cop pretty much got himself beaten to death, and friendly magas would never do a violence. Just an unfortunate coincidence that his skull was underneath the blunt force object as it came crashing down.

My understanding is that the flex-cuffs were looted by rioters from mass arrest kits left behind by capitol police. So, perhaps it wasn't premeditated and they didn't bring them from home. They just looted them from stuff the police left behind after violently driving them back, before they burst into the chamber with their newly looted reams of flex cuffs. Very legal, very cool.

Quote:
isn't a "but but but her emails" argument. I'm using it as an example that should still be nationally relevant
LMAO. P-pwomise, it isn't a 'but her emails' argument, except here is one anyway in the same sentence. The desperation is palpable. Just because you are self-aware on some level of how dumb and irrelevant this argument is and put a disclaimer in your post, doesn't mean it isn't still dumb and irrelevant.
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Old 02-15-2021, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
Watching the maga-sphere equivocate and do pedantic hair-splitting is pretty funny and delusional, but not at all surprising. I mean that cop pretty much got himself beaten to death, and friendly magas would never do a violence. Just an unfortunate coincidence that his skull was underneath the blunt force object as it came crashing down.

My understanding is that the flex-cuffs were looted by rioters from mass arrest kits left behind by capitol police. So, perhaps it wasn't premeditated and they didn't bring them from home. They just looted them from stuff the police left behind after violently driving them back, before they burst into the chamber with their newly looted reams of flex cuffs. Very legal, very cool.



LMAO. P-pwomise, it isn't a 'but her emails' argument, except here is one anyway in the same sentence. The desperation is palpable. Just because you are self-aware on some level of how dumb and irrelevant this argument is and put a disclaimer in your post, doesn't mean it isn't still dumb and irrelevant.
Again. There is zero evidence of him having something thrown at his head under review from journos, and differing statements from colleagues. There is zero blunt force trauma as per medical examination. His current cause of death is not considered to be from any sort of anything thrown at his head. There is no clear cause of death. Current belief from officials is possible pepper or bear spray.

That is not up for debate as per information in the news as of now. Stop spreading misinformation.

Quote:
One leading theory that investigators are considering is that the suspects sprayed an irritant, perhaps bear spray, that caused Sicknick to suffer a fatal reaction, the official said and CNN has previously reported.
Quote:
Sicknick, a 13-year veteran of the police force, died on January 7, one day after he collapsed in his office after being "injured while physically engaging with protestors," the Capitol Police said in a statement last month.
Investigators have struggled for weeks to build a federal murder case in Sicknick's death as they pored over video and photographs to try to determine the moment when he suffered his fatal injuries. Investigators have determined that initial reports suggesting Sicknick was struck with a fire extinguisher aren't true, CNN previously reported
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/10/polit...ion/index.html


Quote:
All I'm doing at this point is posting evidence that this wasn't a benign protest and that Trump has significantly changed the discourse to the point he's culpable (something the non-QAnon GOP has even admitted). Beyond that, I'm not going to argue just how people will be charged because I'm not a lawyer.
Sure. Any riot is by definition not a benign protest.
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Old 02-15-2021, 10:51 AM
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https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status...240633344?s=20

Evidence of individuals carrying zip ties at the rally.

Seems like there's going to be a lot of confusing stories simply because of the sheer mass of the crowd and individuals focusing on specific pictures or instances over others.
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Old 02-15-2021, 11:00 AM
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The cop didn't die at the capitol

All of this is manufactured hysteria

The same people gave no fucks about BLM riots or the protests invading federal buildings during the Kavanaugh hearings

Miss me with all of this subversive programming

Meanwhile, your boy Joe is setting records for executive actions without any input from Congress (because Congress is too busy doctoring evidence for a sham impeachment) and you have the audacity to call anyone else a fascist or dictator

The cognitive dissonance is always worse in otherwise intelligent people. Fascinating phenomenon, really.
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Old 02-15-2021, 11:05 AM
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The cop didn't die at the capitol

All of this is manufactured hysteria

The same people gave no fucks about BLM riots or the protests invading federal buildings during the Kavanaugh hearings

Miss me with all of this subversive programming

Meanwhile, your boy Joe is setting records for executive actions without any input from Congress (because Congress is too busy doctoring evidence for a sham impeachment) and you have the audacity to call anyone else a fascist or dictator

The cognitive dissonance is always worse in otherwise intelligent people. Fascinating phenomenon, really.
This... isn't a gotcha. He died later from his injuries rather than right there on the steps. Guess that blows the whole thing up huh? This is more of the desperate pedantry of those with no real argument or evidence. And that last sentence.. so close, so close. Magas beating cops in broad daylight really has broken the brains of the thin blue line larpers. That's why it feels like their goalposts are on top of an overclocked roomba.

Not that evidence matters to you dipshits, but here ya go anyway for the posterity and those who may be reading along.
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Old 02-15-2021, 11:10 AM
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I watched it live on multiple channels. I saw tweets coming in from other sources. Some of the insurrectionists live streamed their behavior to Parler and posted pictures from the event.

I'm not asking you to like Biden, but I am hoping that you can at least believe the insurrectionists in their own words on that day. This is not manufactured hysteria, this is just reporting on what people did.
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Old 02-15-2021, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status...240633344?s=20

Evidence of individuals carrying zip ties at the rally.

Seems like there's going to be a lot of confusing stories simply because of the sheer mass of the crowd and individuals focusing on specific pictures or instances over others.
Fair enough. Pictures I've not seen.

Quote:
The same people gave no fucks about BLM riots or the protests invading federal buildings during the Kavanaugh hearings
The BLM riots are, on many points, different. While they did involve on Government buildings, the outrage and overarching "phenomena" resulted in multiple deaths, resulted in lots of property damage and probably worst of all ruined who knows how many legal cases and set who knows how many rapists, murderers, sexual assaulters, or...well.. Anyone who had evidence sitting in the multiple police stations burned or abandoned....

It was at it's core a social "uprising" that was independent of stopping the United States government from doing it's duties.

The Capitol Riot, while resulting in far less damage, was an attack on the system itself, which carries with it certain connotations.

Now, the funny thing is, we actually know a lot of what the Trump people are and were worried about is..well.. factual.

There were private actors and special interests behind the scenes messing with laws and influencing how systems work, and a bunch of other super shady stuff. Time put out a whole article about it, though they were careful with wording and used terms like "fortifying" elections. Even mentioned the threat of political violence to hurt profits for businesses to get things done.

But ultimately, what was done was legal.

Now, I don't think this was as big of a deal as it's made out to be. But nothing Trump has done is as big of a deal as it's made out to be. Contesting and disputing EC votes is.. standard practice and is done nearly every election. It was no in any way "unprecedented". Not only was it not unprecedented, if large portions of the voter base were unclear or untrusting, it actively should have been done, then openly and plainly investigated in the most transparent way possible.

Accusing and slinging cries of rigged election machines and bad voting practices is...also done every election. Fuck, I know of at least one mainstream left wing site that threw the accusation about Mitch McConnel in the 2020 election. Actively using it while Trump was doing the same thing.

People rioted. It's what upset people do, and they should be in prison over it.

I believe I've pointed out to Cantus when he ran his server that I don't really have much of an issue with BLM attacking Government buildings when protesting. It is, frankly, what should be done. The issue was with businesses and private things, and that shouldn't have been done.

Attack the Government buildings, the police stations, and the institutions of power all you want.

Same here, and while I certainly feel sorry for the police and the staffers who had to experience this terror (there is a particular scene of a cop up against the wall shitting his pants in terror as he's being jostled around that is heartbreaking), I think much of the outrage at our "systems" being attacked is largely overblown.

I certainly don't feel sympathy for the elected officials who continually screw everyone over, and I don't really think anybody complaining about it does either.

And it's DAMN sure a farce to say these people are honoring the "sanctity of the vote" when they were actively trying to run campaigns to get the EC to vote against how people voted in 2016. Like, hiring actors and shit.
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Old 02-15-2021, 11:52 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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There's a reason I shut my server down, and it's largely because people supported both protest and riot. I'm not going to host a server where violence is an acceptable and normalized outlet. I'm not going to debate the BLM protests and tangential rioting in this thread because it's a "whataboutism" that shifts focus away from the purpose of showing how January 6th was such a big deal. That doesn't mean I condone rioting

If anyone wants to talk about BLM, present evidence, etc, they can do so elsewhere for me to respond. Here, I'm going to repeat, ad nauseum, that it doesn't have a bearing on the topic, so I'm not going to respond to it.

On topic, the impeachment hearing directly addressed the fact that Trump exhausted all legal means to win his case regarding the election before the 6th. The rally on the 6th was an attempt to assemble a mob for the purpose of intimidating members of Congress not to certify the electoral votes already cast by the states. In doing this, a sitting president attempted to overturn, by threat of force, the will of the individual states and thus retain power against the will of the people. This was, in effect, an attempted coup against the legislative and judicial branches by the executive branch.

If it happened in Africa, we'd call that a dictatorial power grab.

If this hadn't been Trump's rally, it would still have been a serious incident, but adding in the sitting Commander in Chief sets the bar much, much higher.
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Old 02-15-2021, 12:28 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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On topic, the impeachment hearing directly addressed the fact that Trump exhausted all legal means to win his case regarding the election before the 6th
And more than one of those were dismissed on procedural and not merit based things.

In one of the lawsuits (it's actually brought by state GOP) in regards to envelopes not having the correct information, one of the State supreme court judges actively ruled he agrees with the argument that the information needs to be there, the law just shouldn't be followed this year due to circumstances.

There was another, which made news, where the State governor had announced a change to indefinitely confined votes illegally, the courts stepped in and said "no, you can't make that change" later, and then when a drastic rise in indefinitely confined votes case made it to court... The court agreed there was a large discrepancy, but refused to grant relief due to the lawsuit trying to dismiss all of that type of vote as a "blanket class".

That is. The deepest of horse shit.

The system works. If the system actively sees cases brought. And I hate to tell you, but that was not the case with the 2020 election. Half the shit that has actively, factually been covered and worked on at a local level gets just flat out dismissed when brought up in conversation.

Like Dominion machines flipping votes. That is real. ~6% of a total vote, albeit in a localized area (so far). Attorney General has an investigation into into it. https://www.wmur.com/article/attorne...ndham/35484417
And ABC channel, so hardly what one could call right wing.

There was an easy way to simmer down the national conversation, and that was to be transparent and not play political games with this shit.
When Trump was under investigation, my near constant refrain to you folks was "Sure, investigate him all you want. I don't think it will find anything, but investigate. Transparency is good".

That was the answer needed.

Instead, we got "We can't let you investigate these systems, they are a proprietary software owned by a private company". We got cities and counties defying judges orders to turn over machines and data. None of that

It's not like this doesn't have a built in constitutional procedure. Fuckin, delaying this shit to investigate would have, at very worst case, put Grassley in as President pro tempore until shit could be resolved.

None of this...was a big deal, none of it was a constitutional crises, and none of it had to come down to this. Like shit, even if you don't think it will find something (and it very much would likely not have found anything) transparency is never bad.

A large portion of voters did not trust the results. Nothing else matters to maintain a stable system except to open shit up and show them it was legit.

Trump was a loud mouthed ass. He is always a loud mouthed ass. Him being a loud mouthed ass that got people riled up does not explain the failure of the 2020 elections.

And it very much was a failure, and proves the entire process needs to be updated, modernized, and fortified to avoid this shit.

And the worst part is, pointing this all out is going to be taken as a partisan statement, when it very much isn't. The fact that transparency is a fucking partisan issue is disgusting.
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Old 02-15-2021, 01:04 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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And more than one of those were dismissed on procedural and not merit based things.

In one of the lawsuits (it's actually brought by state GOP) in regards to envelopes not having the correct information, one of the State supreme court judges actively ruled he agrees with the argument that the information needs to be there, the law just shouldn't be followed this year due to circumstances.

There was another, which made news, where the State governor had announced a change to indefinitely confined votes illegally, the courts stepped in and said "no, you can't make that change" later, and then when a drastic rise in indefinitely confined votes case made it to court... The court agreed there was a large discrepancy, but refused to grant relief due to the lawsuit trying to dismiss all of that type of vote as a "blanket class".

That is. The deepest of horse shit.

The system works. If the system actively sees cases brought. And I hate to tell you, but that was not the case with the 2020 election. Half the shit that has actively, factually been covered and worked on at a local level gets just flat out dismissed when brought up in conversation.

Like Dominion machines flipping votes. That is real. ~6% of a total vote, albeit in a localized area (so far). Attorney General has an investigation into into it. https://www.wmur.com/article/attorne...ndham/35484417

And ABC channel, so hardly what one could call right wing.

There was an easy way to simmer down the national conversation, and that was to be transparent and not play political games with this shit.

When Trump was under investigation, my near constant refrain to you folks was "Sure, investigate him all you want. I don't think it will find anything, but investigate. Transparency is good".

That was the answer needed.

Instead, we got "We can't let you investigate these systems, they are a proprietary software owned by a private company". We got cities and counties defying judges orders to turn over machines and data. None of that

It's not like this doesn't have a built in constitutional procedure. Fuckin, delaying this shit to investigate would have, at very worst case, put Grassley in as President pro tempore until shit could be resolved.

None of this...was a big deal, none of it was a constitutional crises, and none of it had to come down to this.

Like shit, even if you don't think it will find something (and it very much would likely not have found anything) transparency is never bad.
Trump had 2 months and 61 cases to prove significant discrepancies that would change the outcome of the final vote and failed to do so in every reasonable respect. If we were to "investigate all potential problems and remedies" for every election, we would never have a complete count due to endless legal interference with the process. We'd still be litigating 2000 at that point.

That said, yes, we should all be in agreement that process review post-facto is not only important, but necessary. Electronic and physical voting systems should be carefully evaluated for errors (whether in software or human interaction), state voting laws should be assured that they're appropriately rigorous (aka, reduce the chance for fraud to a minimum without becoming so burdensome to vote that they're discriminatory), and campaigns should not be allowed to continue if they significantly adhere to abusive or legally indefensible behavior (e.g. North Carolina and Leslie Macrae https://www.npr.org/2019/07/30/74680...e-ballot-fraud).

And THAT said, Trump also benefited from some incredibly shady voter purges in GA, FL, and other states, and still lost across enough states that there is no statistically feasible reason he could argue he won. To argue that would be to then argue that the vote count wasn't correct for anyone and the entirety of the election (across multiple distinct voting systems) needed to be forfeit, something we can objectively see was never presented. This means that the vote wasn't prejudiced against Trump to any significant extent that would alter the outcome of the election for him. That's why the moderate arm of the GOP didn't rally around him, they understand that he's [still] fighting a lost cause.
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Old 02-15-2021, 01:37 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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And THAT said, Trump also benefited from some incredibly shady voter purges in GA, FL, and other states, and still lost across enough states that there is no statistically feasible reason he could argue he won. To argue that would be to then argue that the vote count wasn't correct for anyone and the entirety of the election (across multiple distinct voting systems) needed to be forfeit, something we can objectively see was never presented. This means that the vote wasn't prejudiced against Trump to any significant extent that would alter the outcome of the election for him. That's why the moderate arm of the GOP didn't rally around him, they understand that he's [still] fighting a lost cause.
I mean, the moderate GOP didn't rally around him because they don't like him.

That being said...

37 states voting systems were altered or otherwise "fortified" involving mail in voting.

In Times own words

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"That’s why the participants want the secret history of the 2020 election told, even though it sounds like a paranoid fever dream–a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information. They were not rigging the election; they were fortifying it. And they believe the public needs to understand the system’s fragility in order to ensure that democracy in America endures."
And again, one persons "fortify" is another persons "rigged".

I really just don't get how people can see articles like that (and other comments) and not see why Republicans are pissed off and sure the election was stolen, even if they don't agree with it.

I'll be honest, that times article is one that should have never seen the light of day.
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