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Old 08-20-2014, 11:20 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Default Weekly Warcraft (Lore Edition): Building Character

And weekly threads begin their invasion of the Lore Forums!

The idea of this thread is to discuss what you would do with a particular character. The catch is, within a week, a character needs a majority of the votes in order to become the topic of choice (for reference look at Nazja's most excellent race-crafting thread: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...d.php?t=216106). The rules are simple.

1. Every week, we all vote on a character to discuss. This is done by simply writing the name of the character in your post. If you truly wish to write more, no one is going to stop you, but please do save some of your ideas for the event of your character of choice winning. Votes for characters who have not one will roll over from week to week. To be clear, you may continue to vote for the same person every week until they win.

2. Every week, the votes will be tallied, and the first nominee to have achieved the majority for that week (a character will need at least two votes) will be the character of discussion. Thus, if by the end of the week Bud Nedreck and Harrison Jones each have 3 votes, whichever one got to 3 first wins. Characters may only win once, but once the win, they may be discussed freely for as many weeks as the thread is active.

3. While, as said above, no one can stop you from posting what you like, I would respectfully request that you limit your posts to votes, ideas for how you would develop characters who win, and comments on the ideas of others.

Vote for any character you want, for any reason you want. Hate Anduin, vote for him and write about having him killed (I hope you write a story, not just "he dies"). Want to vote for a character of your own creation? No objections here, but good luck getting other people to vote for the character, or discuss him or her for that matter.

Here's where I'll keep the votes:

Rokaro - 1
Halford Ramsey - 1
Ivar Bloodfang - 1


And here's where I'll keep the winners:

Jaina Proudmoore - 3
Thargas Anvilmar - 3
Vol'jin - 2
Jandis Barov. - 4
Isiden Perenolde - 3
Interrogator Khan - 3
Teron Gorefiend - 2
Nefaru - 3

Good luck, and lets have some fun!

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 10-15-2014 at 07:22 AM..
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  #2  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:25 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I vote for http://wowpedia.org/Rokaro

Who the heck is this greyhaired guy to take the place of Rexxar while he's away as champion? Orc rogue is an interesting combination.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:08 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Vol'jin, and how to un-Warchief him.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:34 PM
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Interrogator Khan (MU), and how to truly implement him ingame.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:50 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Jaina, and how she could dethrone Varian.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:28 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I'm going to go ahead and weigh in and go with Vol'Jin.

That said, I like the spread so far. Hope it continues to grow.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:29 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Thargas Anvilmar.
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  #8  
Old 08-20-2014, 03:36 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Jandice Barov.
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  #9  
Old 08-20-2014, 05:48 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Halford Ramsey
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It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #10  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:29 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Jaina. To repair her character and supplant Varian.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:38 PM
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Jaina. To repair her character and supplant Varian.
Repair? No, transmute is more like it, and I don't think the formula to turn fail into win has been discovered yet.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:20 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

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Thargas Anvilmar.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:48 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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transmute
Hero characters are immune.

Unless you're playing Curse of Monkey Island.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:22 AM
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I'll say Jaina, because while I want WoW to be about smaller tertiary characters that only tangentially interact with major WC3 characters and leaders, I still want Jaina Proudmoore to be the goddamn mu'fu'n superheroine of the franchise --not vengeful destructive Dark Phoenix --but scrappy, principled, self-sacrificing Wonder Woman.
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:22 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Isiden Perenolde, King of Alterac and Future Prince Consort of Gilneas. Alliance politics needs a little more court intrigue.
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  #16  
Old 08-27-2014, 07:48 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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K, Jaina wins it by majority vote.

By the looks of things, not everyone is on board with the direction she's taken the Kirin Tor. I would play up on this, and maybe do a civil war within Dalaran. I'm not saying she shouldn't win, but if she doesn't she could regroup and take her rightful place as sovereign of Kul Tiras, which needs some exposure. As for whether or not they'd accept her after Daelin, I'm not certain how much her limited involvement in that battle is known, and if she continues in her anti-Horde position I doubt the people will object. It could make for a fun naval rivalry between Quel'Thalas and Kul Tiras. I imagine she'd even take the Silver Covenant with her (and a number of High Elven Destroyers as well).

My next vote is for Isiden Perenolde. By all means vote, and post your ideas as to what you'd do with Jaina Proudmoore, whether it's kill her, increase her standing in the Alliance, etc.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:51 AM
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Jandice "the yellow fever" Barov once more.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:26 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Thargas Anvilmar. I got a soft spot for the Anvilmars and he's most likely the last one. That would actually be the perfect union. Drop the Dark Iron bastard in lava and marry him off to Moira, creating a proper imperial bloodline.
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2014, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
By the looks of things, not everyone is on board with the direction she's taken the Kirin Tor. I would play up on this, and maybe do a civil war within Dalaran.
Again.

Quote:
I'm not saying she shouldn't win, but if she doesn't she could regroup and take her rightful place as sovereign of Kul Tiras, which needs some exposure.
"Rightful" may not be correct here, as current lore has it so that Kul Tiras is not a hereditary monarchy. Their government is unknown, but the Lord Admiral is just a noble who rules.

As to what I would have Jaina do, let us look at her role in the narrative (from another thread):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
During Vanilla WoW (and TBC) the Alliance and Horde were led by Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore. That was clearly the intent. Their on-click quotes mirrored each other, and both were focused on in WoW's lead-ins The Founding of Durotar and Cycle of Hatred.

To put the war back in Warcraft, Varian was the anti-Thrall, with all of the parallels/reversals noted by Omacron. Then we needed an anti-Jaina, which was Garrosh. The mirror is not as exact here, but he is the warmonger to Thrall's attempts at peace (failures aside).

The odd and hard to pin down notion of an anti-Garrosh comes when Jaina and Varian switched roles during MoP's run. You still have the peace-advocate and the war-advocate, but reversed.

What does the Horde get? Vol'jin as the peace-advocate... and what? Garrosh still? Sylvanas? The Horde does not have a leader screaming for the heads of the Alliance, and if bipolar Jaina cools down, we have a cold war again.
So, she is really shoved into the anti-Horde warmonger role, except when she cools down, except when she is a raving lunatic again, with a look at the end of SoO that says 'raid boss'. Is this a good thing? If not, can she be fixed?
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:41 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I don't think Jaina can be fixed. Unless Blizzard does significant retcon, which I doubt would happen, it'd be better off just continuing with what we have.

As much as I hated the direction they took with Jaina, I'd like to see her go crazy and eventually get offed. The current one has good crazy potential.

Edit: and I vote for Rexxar this time.
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  #21  
Old 08-27-2014, 11:02 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
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Again.



"Rightful" may not be correct here, as current lore has it so that Kul Tiras is not a hereditary monarchy. Their government is unknown, but the Lord Admiral is just a noble who rules.

As to what I would have Jaina do, let us look at her role in the narrative (from another thread):



So, she is really shoved into the anti-Horde warmonger role, except when she cools down, except when she is a raving lunatic again, with a look at the end of SoO that says 'raid boss'. Is this a good thing? If not, can she be fixed?
Aren't titles of Nobility also Hereditary? Although, if you're implying there are other nobles there (or if perhaps Kul'tiras was not a sovereign state but rather a feudal one that bowed to one crown or another) that could be interesting.

I think Jaina's just fine being the pot stirrer. She has legitimate reasons to do what she does. I don't even think she necessarily needs to be a raid boss either. Faction conflict will always have a place in WoW. Having it be Jaina and her having good reasons helps sustain it for a longer period of time. She doens't have to be 100% right, nor does she have to be 100% wrong.

I just wonder if she might be better off doing it from a base of power that she knows is on board with her intentions. As ruler of Kul'Tiras she could tacitly oppose the Horde. She could institute trade embargos and blockades in an effort to make sure the Horde is never strong enough to challenge the Alliance again (if you can't tell, I've been on a bit of an economic kick). Horde on the other hand would lash out with pirate attacks that are only loosely affiliated with them.

Of course, she doesn't have to leave Dalaran to do that. She could just hire privateers from Kul Tiras (she'd still probably have contacts there even if she's no longer monarch).

Basically, she I'm saying she could have a shining future if they ever do a great seas expansion.
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:30 AM
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I still support Khan, by the way. Ja´na... I'm not really interested in this character as of now.
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  #23  
Old 08-27-2014, 12:19 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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My next vote is for Isiden Perenolde. By all means vote, and post your ideas as to what you'd do with Jaina Proudmoore, whether it's kill her, increase her standing in the Alliance, etc.
Jaina is an odd character to me. She was easily my favorite character in Warcraft III, and I found her tiny, tiny role in TFT rather sad. However, she obviously had a bright future ahead of her, because she was basically made for the role of patron of the alliance. Aside from her own heritage, she was the star pupil of Antonidas, friend of the court of Lordaeron and the church of holy light, and commanded forces from throughout the alliance in a battle to save the planet. Indeed, in the RPG, Theramore was named as the factual capital of the Alliance. The Night Elves, then new additions to the alliance, were presumably convinced to join by Lady Proudmoore as well. Obviously, her star was rising.

And then WoW happened. While Jaina was still obviously meant as Thrall's counterpart in the story, the game didn't reflect that. Instead, the focus of the human narrative was on Stormwind (which now sported a bizarrely Theramore-like design). The result was this weird state where Jaina and Theramore just kinda existed, with little to no influence on the story. In one step, Jaina went from 'rising star of the alliance' to 'lady who sits around and does nothing'.

This is also when two other trends happened. First, the conflict between the horde and alliance started getting ramped up again. Second, Thrall and Jaina were turned into the 'voices of peace'. With Thrall, we actually got to see some of that. He held back on striking against Tiragarde, despite their blatant aggression, hoping that a peaceful accord could still be reached. He sent people to investigate the attack on an inn founded by settlers from Theramore. He sent agents to rescue Moira Thaurissan from her (presumed) kidnappers. Thrall obviously made mistakes (uncountably many), but we could actually see him work towards peace as well.
Jaina on the other hand? She had nothing of the sort. She briefly appeared in the missing diplomat quest, and that was all. This is the point where Jaina's intended role and portrayed role started to drift apart. Because while she didn't get any chance to make an overture towards peace, she did get the mistakes. Northwatch started shooting at passing trading vessels. Her soldiers attacked the horde player while he was helping their investigation. The dwarven members of her expedition established Bael Modan. You can even argue about the recruitment of the night elves in the alliance, depending on when and how the conflict over orcish woodcutting started.

WotLK made a this situation a hundred times worse. When Varian declared war on the horde, a competent voice of peace would have used his or her own political connections to place pressure on Varian. A competent voice of peace would have negotiated a joint mission into Ulduar, independent of Varian's or Garrosh' expeditions. A competent voice of peace would have told Varian that he does not have the authority to force the members of allied nations into a lethal tournament. Instead, we have a little girl who meekly follows around Varian, looking sad that Varian is such a meany-pants.

Cataclysm made the entire situation even weirder. I'm guessing that they were going for a "just because she's a voice of peace doesn't mean she's weak" sort of thing, but the end result was just... schizophrenic. Cataclysm was the kind of war that would have actually been solvable through diplomacy, since the guy leading the aggression was only a placeholder, and the root causes were a solvable resource problem.
Which naturally means that Jaina instantly gave up on all diplomacy, instead providing soldiers so that the best hope for peace (and one of her best friends) could be put into a cage, while ordering assaults on all of the horde's holdings in Kalimdor.
Jaina was not trying to enforce a peaceful solution in Cataclysm. She was working to utterly and completely crush the horde. I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable in the situation. You could even argue that conquest by someone who honestly intents for equal co-habitation to be the most optimal outcome. However, that's not what's going on.

Instead, Jaina keeps going on and on about how everyone needs to be in peace, and why isn't there any peace, and why isn't anyone else trying to create a peace, without her actually doing anything to create peace. It's not like Jaina is lacking in resources here. She's got an entire kingdom at her disposal, as well as good working relationships with almost every single leader in both the alliance and the horde. However, she seems to have decided that she needs to do absolutely jack faeces to work for peace.

I hate to say this. I truly do, since Jaina really was my favorite character in Warcraft III. However: Taken at face-value, Jaina has been a complete and utter failure as a diplomat, due to either apathy or sheer incompetence on her own part. Despite the significant resources at her disposal, she has failed to negotiate a single treaty or agreement, has allowed relationships to deteriorate without making any apparent effort to counter this deterioration, and has not even managed to establish basic diplomatic ties. For me, Jaina has become the face of the absolute idiocy and incompetence necessary to perpetuate the faction conflict. Which makes me sad.

I can't really say much about her narrative in ToW and MoP. I prefer a Jaina who fights for peace, but we weren't getting that anyway. Post-ToW Jaina has kinda left me cold. Not nearly as bad as incompetent!Jaina, but not really my sort of thing either. Plus, she seems kinda bipolar.


Woo! Haven't done a good rant in a while. Feels good to stretch those criticism muscles.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:33 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Ivar Bloodfang

He'd probably just die off, become a villain, or neutered but I'll take my chances.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Jaina is an odd character to me. She was easily my favorite character in Warcraft III, and I found her tiny, tiny role in TFT rather sad. However, she obviously had a bright future ahead of her, because she was basically made for the role of patron of the alliance. Aside from her own heritage, she was the star pupil of Antonidas, friend of the court of Lordaeron and the church of holy light, and commanded forces from throughout the alliance in a battle to save the planet. Indeed, in the RPG, Theramore was named as the factual capital of the Alliance. The Night Elves, then new additions to the alliance, were presumably convinced to join by Lady Proudmoore as well. Obviously, her star was rising.

And then WoW happened. While Jaina was still obviously meant as Thrall's counterpart in the story, the game didn't reflect that. Instead, the focus of the human narrative was on Stormwind (which now sported a bizarrely Theramore-like design). The result was this weird state where Jaina and Theramore just kinda existed, with little to no influence on the story. In one step, Jaina went from 'rising star of the alliance' to 'lady who sits around and does nothing'.

This is also when two other trends happened. First, the conflict between the horde and alliance started getting ramped up again. Second, Thrall and Jaina were turned into the 'voices of peace'. With Thrall, we actually got to see some of that. He held back on striking against Tiragarde, despite their blatant aggression, hoping that a peaceful accord could still be reached. He sent people to investigate the attack on an inn founded by settlers from Theramore. He sent agents to rescue Moira Thaurissan from her (presumed) kidnappers. Thrall obviously made mistakes (uncountably many), but we could actually see him work towards peace as well.
Jaina on the other hand? She had nothing of the sort. She briefly appeared in the missing diplomat quest, and that was all. This is the point where Jaina's intended role and portrayed role started to drift apart. Because while she didn't get any chance to make an overture towards peace, she did get the mistakes. Northwatch started shooting at passing trading vessels. Her soldiers attacked the horde player while he was helping their investigation. The dwarven members of her expedition established Bael Modan. You can even argue about the recruitment of the night elves in the alliance, depending on when and how the conflict over orcish woodcutting started.

WotLK made a this situation a hundred times worse. When Varian declared war on the horde, a competent voice of peace would have used his or her own political connections to place pressure on Varian. A competent voice of peace would have negotiated a joint mission into Ulduar, independent of Varian's or Garrosh' expeditions. A competent voice of peace would have told Varian that he does not have the authority to force the members of allied nations into a lethal tournament. Instead, we have a little girl who meekly follows around Varian, looking sad that Varian is such a meany-pants.

Cataclysm made the entire situation even weirder. I'm guessing that they were going for a "just because she's a voice of peace doesn't mean she's weak" sort of thing, but the end result was just... schizophrenic. Cataclysm was the kind of war that would have actually been solvable through diplomacy, since the guy leading the aggression was only a placeholder, and the root causes were a solvable resource problem.
Which naturally means that Jaina instantly gave up on all diplomacy, instead providing soldiers so that the best hope for peace (and one of her best friends) could be put into a cage, while ordering assaults on all of the horde's holdings in Kalimdor.
Jaina was not trying to enforce a peaceful solution in Cataclysm. She was working to utterly and completely crush the horde. I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable in the situation. You could even argue that conquest by someone who honestly intents for equal co-habitation to be the most optimal outcome. However, that's not what's going on.

Instead, Jaina keeps going on and on about how everyone needs to be in peace, and why isn't there any peace, and why isn't anyone else trying to create a peace, without her actually doing anything to create peace. It's not like Jaina is lacking in resources here. She's got an entire kingdom at her disposal, as well as good working relationships with almost every single leader in both the alliance and the horde. However, she seems to have decided that she needs to do absolutely jack faeces to work for peace.

I hate to say this. I truly do, since Jaina really was my favorite character in Warcraft III. However: Taken at face-value, Jaina has been a complete and utter failure as a diplomat, due to either apathy or sheer incompetence on her own part. Despite the significant resources at her disposal, she has failed to negotiate a single treaty or agreement, has allowed relationships to deteriorate without making any apparent effort to counter this deterioration, and has not even managed to establish basic diplomatic ties. For me, Jaina has become the face of the absolute idiocy and incompetence necessary to perpetuate the faction conflict. Which makes me sad.

I can't really say much about her narrative in ToW and MoP. I prefer a Jaina who fights for peace, but we weren't getting that anyway. Post-ToW Jaina has kinda left me cold. Not nearly as bad as incompetent!Jaina, but not really my sort of thing either. Plus, she seems kinda bipolar.


Woo! Haven't done a good rant in a while. Feels good to stretch those criticism muscles.
Except she did.

The whole Missing Diplomat story - initially and modified in the comics - was her big gambit to establish and reinforce peace, and despite more time passing in RL, due to the wonky passage of time in-lore WoW basically started with that going on, and didn't resolve it until the lead-in to Cataclysm.

But we ended up with Varian's kidnap, and with Stormwind headless and manipulated from within, the Alliance wasn't really in a position to try an organized peace summit again.

Then she finally got a shot at it again with Varian's return, and the Twilight's Hammer crashed it, along with Garrosh basically kicking off his personal spat with Varian.

And from there on, it was all downhill.

It's easy to feel like nearly a decade passed in WoW with Jaina failing to even try to actively promote peace, but that's because in WoW itself, far less time than that has passed than we've been playing WoW. She made two very large efforts to bring the Alliance and Horde leaders to the bargaining table, and both were systematically intercepted, then dismantled by events outside her control. From Vanilla, to TBC, to WotLK, to Cataclysm, to MOP, and now WoD, events in-lore are happening a lot faster than they seem to be from the outside, and situations where it seems like someone only did one or two things that filled a single questline and then stood around for a ten-year span really did those things across many months, even multiple years, within on only half that time.
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