Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 08-27-2014, 12:50 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Being an effective diplomat sometimes means putting your foot down and telling people to stop this shit. Jaina never did that. Varian used to do it but now he won't.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-27-2014, 12:53 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,588

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Being an effective diplomat sometimes means putting your foot down and telling people to stop this shit. Jaina never did that. Varian used to do it but now he won't.
Actually, she did....... in Undercity. Just not the faction you'd want her to do it to.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-27-2014, 12:55 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Actually, she did....... in Undercity. Just not the faction you'd want her to do it to.
Hnnnng.

It's stuff like that that makes me so baffled when people pine for Old Jaina.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-27-2014, 01:19 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,790

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Except she did.

The whole Missing Diplomat story - initially and modified in the comics - was her big gambit to establish and reinforce peace, and despite more time passing in RL, due to the wonky passage of time in-lore WoW basically started with that going on, and didn't resolve it until the lead-in to Cataclysm.

But we ended up with Varian's kidnap, and with Stormwind headless and manipulated from within, the Alliance wasn't really in a position to try an organized peace summit again.

Then she finally got a shot at it again with Varian's return, and the Twilight's Hammer crashed it, along with Garrosh basically kicking off his personal spat with Varian.

And from there on, it was all downhill.

It's easy to feel like nearly a decade passed in WoW with Jaina failing to even try to actively promote peace, but that's because in WoW itself, far less time than that has passed than we've been playing WoW. She made two very large efforts to bring the Alliance and Horde leaders to the bargaining table, and both were systematically intercepted, then dismantled by events outside her control. From Vanilla, to TBC, to WotLK, to Cataclysm, to MOP, and now WoD, events in-lore are happening a lot faster than they seem to be from the outside, and situations where it seems like someone only did one or two things that filled a single questline and then stood around for a ten-year span really did those things across many months, even multiple years, within on only half that time.
Fair point about the missing diplomat questline. Should not have forgotten that. However, I don't think it really changes anything about my perception of her. Jaina's single great diplomatic overture remains 'ask Varian to make peace for me'. Even with the timelines, more than two years passed between Cycle of Hatred and Varian's return. Are you telling me that the extent of possible diplomatic interaction for any ruler of the alliance at the time was limited to 'hope Varian comes back'?
__________________
This is not a signature.

Author of the Pink Engine.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-27-2014, 01:42 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,588

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Hnnnng.

It's stuff like that that makes me so baffled when people pine for Old Jaina.
I liked old Jaina, but for her to go back after everything that's happened to her would be a mistake in my mind. The world changes and people change. I'd rather her character moved forward than back. Now where forward takes her is another question entirely. Peace could still be an option, but perhaps she'll be more prone to demanding peace on her terms.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-27-2014, 09:08 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,573

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Fair point about the missing diplomat questline. Should not have forgotten that. However, I don't think it really changes anything about my perception of her. Jaina's single great diplomatic overture remains 'ask Varian to make peace for me'. Even with the timelines, more than two years passed between Cycle of Hatred and Varian's return. Are you telling me that the extent of possible diplomatic interaction for any ruler of the alliance at the time was limited to 'hope Varian comes back'?
The thing is, like it or not (I lean toward "not", but that's me) Stormwind is treated as the most important voice in the Alliance. Without their say-so, there would be no peace overtures forthcoming from the Alliance, and with Katrana pulling Varian's strings in Stormwind, that say-so was a longer time in coming than it might otherwise have been.

Half the reason Prestor even enacted her kidnapping of Varian was due to him becoming more difficult to control, which in all likelihood manifested partly in his willingness to meet with Thrall despite that being something Onyxia would have been vehemently against.

Then, without Varian around, Onyxia (first through Bolvar, then through her malleable "half-Varian") made sure Stormwind remained hamstrung while sabotaging their diplomatic relations, to the point of outright refusing aid to their own allies.

With the time-crunching that took place in associating Varian's return closely with the death of Onyxia, the war in Northrend, and the beginning of Cataclysm, the events of Vanilla WoW and TBC have since become severely truncated, to the point that it's practically implied that TBC basically happened during much of Vanilla WoW rather than after.

It feels like a longer time to the players, but the rearranging that took place during Varian's re-insertion into the story effectively necessitated that much of Vanilla, and really even some of TBC, took place concurrently rather than in sequence as shown in leveling and content patches, significantly shortening the amount of time between the start of WoW and Varian coming back. Both segments of WoW are significantly sped up by necessity, so that Acherus can be attacking the Plaguelands at the same time that the war in Outland is winding down, while the ghoul plague is rampant during the Vanila-era event of Onyxia's death, Varian's return coincides with the Scourge invasion (to the point that the Necropolis attack on Stormwind occurs during his impromptu war council/sendoff with Bolvar at the harbor just after he got off the boat returning from Kalimdor with her head) - a great many things were accelerated and overlapped to eliminate dead space that previously contained nondescript, inter-expansion "downtime" between Vanilla, TBC and WotLK.

They sandwiched a ton of stuff together into a nexus of events, and consequently the span between Cycle of Hatred and WoW has to be a lot shorter than originally suggested for any of it to work. Such retcons suck, but there it is. And as a result, Jaina's efforts at seeking peace took place far more rapidly in "lore-time" than they seemed to when stretched across all those years in real-time. As a result, the necesary span from CoH, to the Missing Diplomat, to the second peace summit, to the wrathgate/Undercity, to the Mysteries of Ulduar cinematic, to the Argent Tournament, to the escalation of hostilities in Cataclysm, to the destruction of Theramore, has to be a lot more rapid-fire than it came across at the rate of the associated content and expanded materials being released.

And again, like it or not, WoW has significantly hinged the joint operations of the Alliance - which would include any efforts at formally seeking peace with the Horde - upon the leadership of Stormwind, even to the point that Varian's story arc revolves around the implication that the Alliance was rife with disunity because Stormwind was hamstrung by his absence and Onyxia's schemes, and that the problem would only be fixed when Stormwind got its king back so he could start setting everyone straight.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-03-2014, 11:09 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,588

Default

By the looks of things, Thargas Anvilmar takes it. I understand the basics of the character (last descendant of the original ruling family of Ironforge), but I'm not necessarily sure what I'd do with him right this minute, as I'm not necessarily a Dwarf guy. So, Dwarf guys, whatchya got?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-10-2014, 03:28 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,588

Default

Vol'jin's turn. I was really expecting to hear more on Thargas Anvilmar. That said, he, like all other winners, is still available to discuss.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-11-2014, 05:48 AM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

Eternal
Xarthat's Avatar
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Second World Shithole
Posts: 3,864
BattleTag: Kalontas#2949

Default

I'd like to have Teron Gorefiend join the Forsaken and make a new Cult of the Damned with Helcular.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-11-2014, 07:30 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,588

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xarthat View Post
I'd like to have Teron Gorefiend join the Forsaken and make a new Cult of the Damned with Helcular.
I'll go with that. Go back to the idea of Undeath as a form of Immortality (which is basically what Sylvanas uses it as anyway). They might actually start getting willing candidates for undeath that way. That said, I'll save some ideas for the vent of Teron Gorefiend winning.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-11-2014, 02:15 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Jaina is an odd character to me. She was easily my favorite character in Warcraft III, and I found her tiny, tiny role in TFT rather sad. However, she obviously had a bright future ahead of her, because she was basically made for the role of patron of the alliance. Aside from her own heritage, she was the star pupil of Antonidas, friend of the court of Lordaeron and the church of holy light, and commanded forces from throughout the alliance in a battle to save the planet. Indeed, in the RPG, Theramore was named as the factual capital of the Alliance. The Night Elves, then new additions to the alliance, were presumably convinced to join by Lady Proudmoore as well. Obviously, her star was rising.

And then WoW happened. While Jaina was still obviously meant as Thrall's counterpart in the story, the game didn't reflect that. Instead, the focus of the human narrative was on Stormwind (which now sported a bizarrely Theramore-like design). The result was this weird state where Jaina and Theramore just kinda existed, with little to no influence on the story. In one step, Jaina went from 'rising star of the alliance' to 'lady who sits around and does nothing'.

This is also when two other trends happened. First, the conflict between the horde and alliance started getting ramped up again. Second, Thrall and Jaina were turned into the 'voices of peace'. With Thrall, we actually got to see some of that. He held back on striking against Tiragarde, despite their blatant aggression, hoping that a peaceful accord could still be reached. He sent people to investigate the attack on an inn founded by settlers from Theramore. He sent agents to rescue Moira Thaurissan from her (presumed) kidnappers. Thrall obviously made mistakes (uncountably many), but we could actually see him work towards peace as well.
Jaina on the other hand? She had nothing of the sort. She briefly appeared in the missing diplomat quest, and that was all. This is the point where Jaina's intended role and portrayed role started to drift apart. Because while she didn't get any chance to make an overture towards peace, she did get the mistakes. Northwatch started shooting at passing trading vessels. Her soldiers attacked the horde player while he was helping their investigation. The dwarven members of her expedition established Bael Modan. You can even argue about the recruitment of the night elves in the alliance, depending on when and how the conflict over orcish woodcutting started.

WotLK made a this situation a hundred times worse. When Varian declared war on the horde, a competent voice of peace would have used his or her own political connections to place pressure on Varian. A competent voice of peace would have negotiated a joint mission into Ulduar, independent of Varian's or Garrosh' expeditions. A competent voice of peace would have told Varian that he does not have the authority to force the members of allied nations into a lethal tournament. Instead, we have a little girl who meekly follows around Varian, looking sad that Varian is such a meany-pants.

Cataclysm made the entire situation even weirder. I'm guessing that they were going for a "just because she's a voice of peace doesn't mean she's weak" sort of thing, but the end result was just... schizophrenic. Cataclysm was the kind of war that would have actually been solvable through diplomacy, since the guy leading the aggression was only a placeholder, and the root causes were a solvable resource problem.
Which naturally means that Jaina instantly gave up on all diplomacy, instead providing soldiers so that the best hope for peace (and one of her best friends) could be put into a cage, while ordering assaults on all of the horde's holdings in Kalimdor.
Jaina was not trying to enforce a peaceful solution in Cataclysm. She was working to utterly and completely crush the horde. I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable in the situation. You could even argue that conquest by someone who honestly intents for equal co-habitation to be the most optimal outcome. However, that's not what's going on.

Instead, Jaina keeps going on and on about how everyone needs to be in peace, and why isn't there any peace, and why isn't anyone else trying to create a peace, without her actually doing anything to create peace. It's not like Jaina is lacking in resources here. She's got an entire kingdom at her disposal, as well as good working relationships with almost every single leader in both the alliance and the horde. However, she seems to have decided that she needs to do absolutely jack faeces to work for peace.

I hate to say this. I truly do, since Jaina really was my favorite character in Warcraft III. However: Taken at face-value, Jaina has been a complete and utter failure as a diplomat, due to either apathy or sheer incompetence on her own part. Despite the significant resources at her disposal, she has failed to negotiate a single treaty or agreement, has allowed relationships to deteriorate without making any apparent effort to counter this deterioration, and has not even managed to establish basic diplomatic ties. For me, Jaina has become the face of the absolute idiocy and incompetence necessary to perpetuate the faction conflict. Which makes me sad.

I can't really say much about her narrative in ToW and MoP. I prefer a Jaina who fights for peace, but we weren't getting that anyway. Post-ToW Jaina has kinda left me cold. Not nearly as bad as incompetent!Jaina, but not really my sort of thing either. Plus, she seems kinda bipolar.


Woo! Haven't done a good rant in a while. Feels good to stretch those criticism muscles.
Jaina's problem is that her character suffered heavily from inconsistency, especially RotLK pretty much changed her by 180 degrees, from a smart and resilient leader to a very naive and emotional girl.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-11-2014, 06:53 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

Eternal
Sports72Xtrm's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,688

Default

Where do I see Jaina's story arc heading? She's a The Lancer and it seems to me that her main role is to be a pain in Varian's ass and undermine him at every turn. I think it's been highlighted through many areas where Jaina's independent ventures (e.g The Purge of Dalaran, giving money to Baine with out Varian's consent, not cordinating with Varian) has gone against the "good" goals of Varian's The Good King leadership. Some of you percieve this as a good thing, maybe out of spite of Varian's character or his role as the leader of the Alliance. It's like sticking it to the man I guess to you people. But Jaina is not a protagonist. She's a lancer and Varian will ultimately triumph over her. And this conflict and drama in the Alliance seems like a story point that needs to be resolved. I foresee a Divided We Fall scenario in which she learns to follow Varian's lead because he knows better and close ranks. The following outcomes according to TV tropes will occur:
Quote:
he better sort of rival will come to his senses with the enemy actually at the gate, but not without doing heavy damage to the cause first. However, often, Redemption Equals Death. Not always. Sometimes, at that, The Hero learns An Aesop about how people can legitimately suspect him without being evil. Either way, Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is likely to ensue though that may lead to Fire Forged Friendship and prevent reoccurrence. The Leader can sometimes resolve it earlier by trampling objections.

The worse sort may actually become the Turn Coat, undergoing a Face-Heel Turn. This shifts them out of the ambit of this trope. Obstructive Bureaucrat and The Resenter frequently cause this.
This is the type of writing I believe Blizz will deliver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Jaina is an odd character to me. She was easily my favorite character in Warcraft III, and I found her tiny, tiny role in TFT rather sad. However, she obviously had a bright future ahead of her, because she was basically made for the role of patron of the alliance. Aside from her own heritage, she was the star pupil of Antonidas, friend of the court of Lordaeron and the church of holy light, and commanded forces from throughout the alliance in a battle to save the planet. Indeed, in the RPG, Theramore was named as the factual capital of the Alliance. The Night Elves, then new additions to the alliance, were presumably convinced to join by Lady Proudmoore as well. Obviously, her star was rising.

And then WoW happened. While Jaina was still obviously meant as Thrall's counterpart in the story, the game didn't reflect that. Instead, the focus of the human narrative was on Stormwind (which now sported a bizarrely Theramore-like design). The result was this weird state where Jaina and Theramore just kinda existed, with little to no influence on the story. In one step, Jaina went from 'rising star of the alliance' to 'lady who sits around and does nothing'.

This is also when two other trends happened. First, the conflict between the horde and alliance started getting ramped up again. Second, Thrall and Jaina were turned into the 'voices of peace'. With Thrall, we actually got to see some of that. He held back on striking against Tiragarde, despite their blatant aggression, hoping that a peaceful accord could still be reached. He sent people to investigate the attack on an inn founded by settlers from Theramore. He sent agents to rescue Moira Thaurissan from her (presumed) kidnappers. Thrall obviously made mistakes (uncountably many), but we could actually see him work towards peace as well.
Jaina on the other hand? She had nothing of the sort. She briefly appeared in the missing diplomat quest, and that was all. This is the point where Jaina's intended role and portrayed role started to drift apart. Because while she didn't get any chance to make an overture towards peace, she did get the mistakes. Northwatch started shooting at passing trading vessels. Her soldiers attacked the horde player while he was helping their investigation. The dwarven members of her expedition established Bael Modan. You can even argue about the recruitment of the night elves in the alliance, depending on when and how the conflict over orcish woodcutting started.

WotLK made a this situation a hundred times worse. When Varian declared war on the horde, a competent voice of peace would have used his or her own political connections to place pressure on Varian. A competent voice of peace would have negotiated a joint mission into Ulduar, independent of Varian's or Garrosh' expeditions. A competent voice of peace would have told Varian that he does not have the authority to force the members of allied nations into a lethal tournament. Instead, we have a little girl who meekly follows around Varian, looking sad that Varian is such a meany-pants.

Cataclysm made the entire situation even weirder. I'm guessing that they were going for a "just because she's a voice of peace doesn't mean she's weak" sort of thing, but the end result was just... schizophrenic. Cataclysm was the kind of war that would have actually been solvable through diplomacy, since the guy leading the aggression was only a placeholder, and the root causes were a solvable resource problem.
Which naturally means that Jaina instantly gave up on all diplomacy, instead providing soldiers so that the best hope for peace (and one of her best friends) could be put into a cage, while ordering assaults on all of the horde's holdings in Kalimdor.
Jaina was not trying to enforce a peaceful solution in Cataclysm. She was working to utterly and completely crush the horde. I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable in the situation. You could even argue that conquest by someone who honestly intents for equal co-habitation to be the most optimal outcome. However, that's not what's going on.

Instead, Jaina keeps going on and on about how everyone needs to be in peace, and why isn't there any peace, and why isn't anyone else trying to create a peace, without her actually doing anything to create peace. It's not like Jaina is lacking in resources here. She's got an entire kingdom at her disposal, as well as good working relationships with almost every single leader in both the alliance and the horde. However, she seems to have decided that she needs to do absolutely jack faeces to work for peace.

I hate to say this. I truly do, since Jaina really was my favorite character in Warcraft III. However: Taken at face-value, Jaina has been a complete and utter failure as a diplomat, due to either apathy or sheer incompetence on her own part. Despite the significant resources at her disposal, she has failed to negotiate a single treaty or agreement, has allowed relationships to deteriorate without making any apparent effort to counter this deterioration, and has not even managed to establish basic diplomatic ties. For me, Jaina has become the face of the absolute idiocy and incompetence necessary to perpetuate the faction conflict. Which makes me sad.

I can't really say much about her narrative in ToW and MoP. I prefer a Jaina who fights for peace, but we weren't getting that anyway. Post-ToW Jaina has kinda left me cold. Not nearly as bad as incompetent!Jaina, but not really my sort of thing either. Plus, she seems kinda bipolar.


Woo! Haven't done a good rant in a while. Feels good to stretch those criticism muscles.
This is Horde propaganda. The Alliance is reactionary to the Horde's warmongering in Cataclysm. Garrosh is a warmonger and struck the Alliance first, I don't know how you can delude yourself of that fact. Varian did not use the disasters to gain a military advantage this is confirmed in flavor text in MoP, Garrosh meanwhile in a novel invades Ashenvale and attempted to conquer the Night Elves: TWICE! Once in Wolfheart and a second time in Cata. Jaina invaded the Barrens to contain the Horde, because Thrall put Garrosh in charge and told the rest of the Horde to enable his warmongering. The Horde broke the treaty, undisputedly. And then after Cata in Tides of War, Jaina begged Thrall to take back the position of Warchief and keep Garrosh in check but he refused saying his work for the Eathern Ring was more important. The reason why peace failed is all on Thrall and the Horde for enabling a murderous warmonger, that's why. Jaina tried being reactive diplomatically, relying on Thrall to get the Horde's shit together and it cost her her city. Your rant seems like blaming the victim. THe reason why peace failed is on the Horde, not on Jaina.
__________________
Dis my Jam

Last edited by Sports72Xtrm; 09-11-2014 at 11:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-12-2014, 07:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,997

Default

I'll vote for Jandice Barov again.

Regarding Jaina, I just want her to be herself again; a smart woman that uses her intellect to further the Alliance and not some schemer or manipulator that just serves as a reason for the Horde to hate the Alliance. Wars don't need villains in order to occur.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-12-2014, 08:04 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

Elune
Ma Caque Attaque's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In your mind
Posts: 12,687

Default

I'll put in a vote for Jandice Barov.

Because it's like unreal that death really hurts.

And I love her accent.

Really should do a map of accents across Warcraft.... That will be my little project.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-12-2014, 08:43 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I'll vote for Jandice Barov again.

Regarding Jaina, I just want her to be herself again; a smart woman that uses her intellect to further the Alliance and not some schemer or manipulator that just serves as a reason for the Horde to hate the Alliance. Wars don't need villains in order to occur.
Jaina's never been a smart woman that furthered the alliance.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:02 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,997

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Jaina's never been a smart woman that furthered the alliance.
She went to Kalimdor, saved lots of people and topped it off by saved the world.

Most of the tine she was just hindered by idiots on both sides, thwarting her efforts.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:10 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

This post did a good job on her character (until 2010).

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ighlight=JAINA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimrodell View Post
The main problem with Jaina's character is inconsistency in her character development during time. First we see her as pretty independent girl that has clear view on what she actually wants... she wants to be accomplished mage and as such she pretty much follows that path (just remember Aegwynn in times of her beginnings and how she handled things). Tis funny tho how she behaves very often like Pontius Pilate and washes her hands of things to happen (Arthas and Stratholme, Thrall and her father). But yes, in times of W3 and TFT, she's pretty much independent, expresses firmly her decisions and what she thinks that needs to be done.

In Cycle of Hatred, we can still see her as strong-willed mage and ruler but also, we see more of her feminine, softer side... and what's more important, she does show her attitude toward Arthas. Yes she is shaken cause of his fate, but she behaves like that was thing from the past... she actually decides to put thoughts about him aside, cause she has more urgent things to solve. She's still not expressing her crying, too-soft feminine side, but in the same time, she is not that sure in herself anymore and we can actually see insecure girl that still strives to learn and improve herself.

In times of Vanilla WoW, she was almost silent, pleasant NPC with good manners toward visitors of Theramore and we could see exercise of her power only in (in those times unfinished) Missing Diplomat chain. With rewamping of Dustwallow Marsh as zone in TBC we got that chain continued, but still we couldn't see much of Jaina's character development. In CoT Mount Hyjal tho, we meet her again and she's much different from Jaina with whom we fought on Mount Hyjal the first time. CoT version of Jaina has more fragility in herself then Jaina we knew in W3 or TFT bonus campaign Founding of Durotar. Tis just her voice emotes moment, but still, she resembels more female human mage that is actually scared and vulnerable... that craves and asks for help... and that's not the Jaina we used to know.

With WotLK and of Warcraft Manga comic series, she emerged again, now even more feminine, even more fragile. She's still a powerful mage, still good ruler of Theramore, still clearly determining right from wrong, but more and more she resembles a girl that actually never wanted such position, responsibility or power. I must admit that in Battle for Undercity I was actually proud of her cause she finally decided to abandon her Pontius Pilate status and after saying - I cannot let you do this - she actually acts and stops the bloodshed between Varian and Thrall - praise the lord, she finally did it - she openly and clearly stated her thoughts on this stupid conflict. Yet again, in Ulduar cinematic - she's fragile, sensitive, small lost girl again, that doesn't know how to actually solve the situation.

In meantime, we got Arthas - Rise of the Lich King - and Jaina's downfall into inconsistency is sealed. But actually it was bound to happen, since first, original Jaina's creation wasn't made by female storyteller so of course she was more like a tomboy then true lady of the court (don't get me wrong, even being female myself, I like her better as strong willed not much showing emotions person then like this fragile, sometimes too obvious in fright and suffering lady, always liked better Joan of Arc or Eowyn then Lady Marian or :raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor:). Having Christie Golden as someone who actually gives new moments and motivations to our beloved characters, made Jaina become a woman, meaning we actually got to see her secret desires of her heart and body. And that's how Jaina got this crybaby aura - not cause she's true crybaby (well, she is comparing to original Jaina) but cause she got few additional layers in her character development. And that's what happens when few people are actually involved in character evolution instead of one narrator. She became a girl and later woman in love and that's something we didn't see in Arthas downfall/post Arthas/Thrall Jaina. She started to express her emotions, cherish them and trying to understand them, accept them as such thus actually becoming a crybaby in eyes of many that had different picture of her in their heads.

As we can see from Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection, she's woman now, scared and fragile but in the same time determined to actually find the truth and oppose the evil. She's not that mighty mage anymore cause she looses people and almost falls to the Lich King's hands - demystification happened... and of course she'll cry at the end for him and will wish for him to find peace - that's what happens when your truly loved someone. There's no logic in it and no sense of what we might consider justice, especially if there are special moments in downfall like Arthas had.

When I talk about inconsistent literature characters with my students, I usually use her too as an example... and they understand that phenomena better. In order to actually describe her and give some kind of judgment on her motifs and doing, you actually have to take few steps away from her, see her and grasp her in whole and then make your judgment. She is product of bad writing and rash, chaotic, to please majority storytelling... and as such she has to be considered carefully - tis like putting puzzle pieces together in order to get picture, but in these cases, when puzzle is finished, u get to see the whole picture but also, you can still see those pieces thus having more accurate point of view.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:11 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
She went to Kalimdor, saved lots of people and topped it off by saved the world.
She followed Medivh's orders. You know, Medivh who is probably the worst prophet ever? The guy that would casually walk up to people, yell "DOOM!", before walking off in a huff when they didn't believe him.

That Jaina did doesn't mean she's smart. Smart people draw conclusions based on the evidence on hand. Smart people try to reconcile what's in their best interest and what is the right thing to do. Probably the smartest thing Jaina has ever done was kill her own father, but then again you have to consider that she helped Rexxar escape Theramore before it was even clear that her father would lose the war.

Suffice to say, I've never once seen Jaina do anything that I would consider to be smart or principled. She can want to study all she wants, but as far as I'm concerned, her intelligence is merely an informed ability. Her principles are fickle and ill-defined and as a practical matter benefit the Horde exclusively.

Last edited by Westlee; 09-12-2014 at 09:14 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:15 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
She followed Medivh's orders. You know, Medivh who is probably the worst prophet ever? The guy that would casually walk up to people, yell "DOOM!", before walking off in a huff when they didn't believe him.

That Jaina did doesn't mean she's smart. Smart people draw conclusions based on the evidence on hand. Smart people try to reconcile what's in their best interest and what is the right thing to do. Probably the smartest thing Jaina has ever done was kill her own father, but then again you have to consider that she helped Rexxar escape Theramore before it was even clear that her father would lose the war.

Suffice to say, I've never once seen Jaina do anything that I would consider to be smart or principled. She can want to study all she wants, but as far as I'm concerned, her intelligence is merely an informed ability.
In RoC, she is quite smart, but RotLK ruined it.

Let's say, Kel'Thuzad also follows the Lich King's order, but is he smart?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:18 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
In RoC, she is quite smart, but RotLK ruined it.
What did she do in RoC that made her smart? Follow Arthas around up until she didn't? Obey Medivh's orders unconditionally?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:26 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,182

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
What did she do in RoC that made her smart?
The only surviving Alliance character who had a name? In RoC and in FT?

(Except not really "Alliance", but "Human Expedition".)
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:33 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,997

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Obey Medivh's orders unconditionally?
You mean Thrall. Jaina took his words into consideration and prepared, but she only left once it became apparent that he was right - just before the fall of Dalaran.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:44 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
You mean Thrall. Jaina took his words into consideration and prepared, but she only left once it became apparent that he was right - just before the fall of Dalaran.
In which case she is following her mentor's orders to leave. As for Thrall, considering the situation he faced (total extermination at the hands of the Alliance), a crazy prophet's orders aren't that crazy. Kalimdor might have been a shot in the dark, but it was better than nothing.

Jaina does not make decisions for herself, nor is she independent. She always relies on a male character, whether it's Arthas, Thrall, Varian, or Kalec or whomever. Her first real foray into independent action was to murder a bunch of people that up until a few days prior she claimed to be good friends, and the catalyst for that event were her emotions boiling over, not because she had any evidence.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:47 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
What did she do in RoC that made her smart? Follow Arthas around up until she didn't? Obey Medivh's orders unconditionally?
She chose not to intervene with Arthas and Uther's conflict too much and told Arthas not to.

She didn't follow Medivh in the beginning, only after these events happened.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:51 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
She chose not to intervene with Arthas and Uther's conflict too much and told Arthas not to.
And why didn't she intervene?

Quote:
She didn't follow Medivh in the beginning, only after these events happened.
Still following his orders.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
characters, warcraft, weekly

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.