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  #201  
Old 11-12-2015, 06:52 PM
Malygos Malygos is offline

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As if nonsapient zerg lives are worth shit
You take that back.
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  #202  
Old 11-12-2015, 07:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Fuck any zerglings but the carbot animation puppies
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  #203  
Old 11-12-2015, 07:27 PM
Malygos Malygos is offline

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How could you say no?



edit: because why not

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  #204  
Old 11-21-2015, 07:10 AM
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It's literally half the size length wise. The art book aspect of it is only a couple pages at the back, plus apparently they are selling it outside the CE, meaning there's absolutely nothing of value there. Regardless, it's not an artbook in what should be a trilogy of artbooks.
Yeah I'm rather confused by this too, why they've suddenly not done an Artbook after doing it for the first 2 games.

In fairness though, while I'm not disagreeing with any of your rant (I agree with most of it) - it's nothing new. It was nothing but pure, disgusting greed that made them split SC2 into 3 "games" in the first place.
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  #205  
Old 11-21-2015, 12:23 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Correction: they have a feeling. They can feel hungry. Otherwise they're nothing mindless drones who do as they're told by their master and in the absence of a master spend their existences eating or looking for something to eat, just like all Swarm Zerg.

That aside, it feels great to be back here. I was wondering what happened to the website.
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  #206  
Old 11-21-2015, 12:41 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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I'm just watching a playthrough of LotV but I have to say, I'm really liking Alarak. Plus, dat voice...Q as a Protoss, yes please.
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  #207  
Old 11-21-2015, 01:06 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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I'm still confused about Tassadar.

Was Ouros saying there never was a Tassadar, that he was just Narud/Duran but for protoss the entire time, or just that he was "ghost" Tassadar?
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  #208  
Old 11-21-2015, 01:15 PM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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I'm still confused about Tassadar.

Was Ouros saying there never was a Tassadar, that he was just Narud/Duran but for protoss the entire time, or just that he was "ghost" Tassadar?
The latter.
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  #209  
Old 11-21-2015, 01:53 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'm just watching a playthrough of LotV but I have to say, I'm really liking Alarak. Plus, dat voice...Q as a Protoss, yes please.
He was pretty clearly someone on the story / design team's pet.
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  #210  
Old 11-21-2015, 02:14 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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He was pretty clearly someone on the story / design team's pet.
Oh definitely. He even looks a bit like someone's doodles of an edgy protoss. Still, don't care, I like him, heh.
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  #211  
Old 11-21-2015, 02:36 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Darth Alarak was an OK character, but his betrayal of Amon was not very well-explained - even taking into account the short story.

I was very disappointed that we got zero information about the different Protoss tribes.

En taro Khas.
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  #212  
Old 11-21-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I'm still confused about Tassadar.

Was Ouros saying there never was a Tassadar, that he was just Narud/Duran but for protoss the entire time, or just that he was "ghost" Tassadar?
Yes, what Gromak said.

I was confused for a minute at first too, but I guess Ouros used Tassadar's form to lure Zeratul into rescuing him/stopping Amon.


And yes, Alarak is the shit. I want one of those extra post-release mission packs to just center around him. He's awesome.
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  #213  
Old 11-21-2015, 02:54 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Ulrezaj campaign when?
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  #214  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:00 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Or Niadra? or Mira Han?
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  #215  
Old 11-21-2015, 04:23 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly one of my biggest issues with Kerrigan in LotV was that there already existed a perfectly logical reason for her survival in HotS: denying Amon the Swarm. It was built into the whole campaign structure, starting with Amon's use of the zerg to crush the protoss in the WoL "future" mission, and continuing with her flying around the Koprulu Sector reclaiming the broods before taking care of her business with Mengsk.

But instead, LotV makes it seem like gathering all of those broods meant nothing, as she only controls a pittance of zerg while Amon possesses hundreds if not thousands of planets full of "feral" broods to use, along with his Hybrid (which the protoss rather anticlimactically take away from him), the Tal'darim, and a terran research organization that somehow comes across as practically having a larger army than the Dominion. Every damned planet the protoss go to is carpeted with Amon's zerg, while Kerrigan ends up coming across like she's hanging out in Ulnar with nothing more than Zagara, Stukov and a handful of drones.

It just felt like a lot of extremely flimsy excuses to have the protoss constantly fighting against all three playable races, culminating in Amon's use of a bland, boring army of "Void minions" that were nothing more than a hodgepodge swarm of pallet-swapped terran, zerg and protoss units constantly spawning from portals DotA-style.

And amid all that, no real reason given for Amon's goals and actions. Sure, he wants to end all life. He claims to want to end the suffering caused by the infinite cycle of life and death in the universe. But why? Why him? There's no reason given for why he and his followers think that way in contrast to the other Xel'Naga. No impetus for their decision to undo the works of their brothers and end it all. Even Sargeras has that, but not Amon. And without it, his whole "thing" just comes across as nothing more than hollow Old God platitudes meant to demoralize the protagonists (it never once works) rather than a villain with actual reasons for the things he does beyond justifying his status as the villain.

Oddly enough, the one thing I did like (and dislike at the same time, as the hasty and crammed-in feeling of the Epilogue missions caused it to seem rather sudden and haphazard) was that the prophecy - the whole mystical, magical bit - turned out to be fabricated by Ouros to get Zeratul (and through him the protoss) onto the path of beating Amon. It essentially capped off the one most glaring "don't gotta explain shit" angles of SC2's story by revealing that it was all smoke and mirrors being used to manipulate the characters.

Which wasn't surprising, when it comes down to it. The Tal'Darim were shown to believe in the same sort of mystical stuff through their adherence to Amon, and so it makes sense that rather than finding out "God" was really on the side of Zeratul's prophecies rather than theirs, in the end neither was truly prophetic or divine. Amon was lying to the Tal'Darim with his whole "destined to be elevated as Hybrid and cleanse creation" schtick to get their willing compliance, so why should another prophecy and its source be any different? The "good" prophecy just turned out to be the extremely convincing pyramid scheme that came out on top through the efforts of the people involved rather than some grander destiny that had already decided beforehand how things would unfold.

Of course, the possibility exists that Ouros wasn't really a "good guy" either. I'm not abut to hold my breath, but it's feasible that he's just some opposite extreme to Amon that could end up being just as dangerous when merged with Kerrigan and loosed upon creation. The fact that he was still alive when Amon seemingly wiped out the rest of the Xel'Naga might suggest there was something equally powerful - and so perhaps equally sinister - about Ouros that forced Amon to keep him alive and imprisoned instead of just killing him off along with the others.


*Oh yeah, Spoilered, I guess.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-21-2015 at 04:26 PM..
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  #216  
Old 11-21-2015, 05:57 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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And amid all that, no real reason given for Amon's goals and actions. Sure, he wants to end all life. He claims to want to end the suffering caused by the infinite cycle of life and death in the universe. But why? Why him?
A motive shows up near the end. He apparently was a protoss/zerg-level thing that didn't like getting Xel'naga'd. I didn't quite get it either.
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  #217  
Old 11-21-2015, 06:08 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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A motive shows up near the end. He apparently was a protoss/zerg-level thing that didn't like getting Xel'naga'd. I didn't quite get it either.
Except the problem there is, the "real" Xel'Naga were strictly all about noninterference beyond the initial seeding of life across the universe.

So that would mean every few eons when two races (including whatever Amon might have been before) evolved to eventually merged and become a perfect union of form and essence, providing vessels for the reborn Xel'Naga, it would have to be their choice to do so as per the Xel'Naga's own central rule of never interfering in the evolutionary direction of the life they created.

All I can figure was perhaps Amon himself coming from a race of controlling dicks in the first place who allowed themselves to merge and ascend, then balked at finding out their new existence as Xel'Naga wouldn't involve getting to forcibly shape all life however they saw fit.
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  #218  
Old 11-21-2015, 06:19 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Darth Alarak was an OK character, but his betrayal of Amon was not very well-explained - even taking into account the short story.

I was very disappointed that we got zero information about the different Protoss tribes.

En taro Khas.
Yeah it would've fit better if we'd seen "Amon did X thing to alienate part of the Tal'darim"

But you don't really find out that they won't 'ascend to hybrid', or that was even the deal Amon had with the tal'darim until one of the last missions in that section.

And the Tal'darim origin being retconned from the novels with Jacob Ramsey and Zamara is weird.
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  #219  
Old 11-21-2015, 06:34 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Well, I can kind of get the Tal'darim thing. Alarak's big unique strength was supposed to be his talent for choosing his alliances wisely and strategically eliminating his prospective foes' alliances before a confrontation rather than just being overtly powerful enough to overwhelm anyone else.

Consequently, I got the sense that Alarak was actually convinced by Nuroka's case back in Ascension, but still betrayed him and backed Ma'lash because he judged Nuroka incapable of delivering victory against Amon even if he managed to defeat Ma'lash.

On the other hand, for all his jibes and criticisms, his very decision to join Artanis' group indicated that he deemed them viable allies who could actually help him overthrown Ma'lash and successfully take the fight to Amon.

The rest of the Tal'darim supporting Alarak afterward was kind of explained; some would have actually taken his victory as proof that Ma'lash's claims on Amon's behalf were false, while others were simply cowed into obedience by Alarak's victory proving he was the strongest.

It was kind of the built-in fault in the culture Amon had instilled in the Tal'darim. As long as only the loyal Tal'darim ruled, it worked for his purposes. However by obligating them to serve and obey those who stood above them in their hierarchy based on strength alone, it meant that whoever was most powerful and stood at the top would have the obedience of the whole tribe. Even if he turned out to be no friend of Amon's, they would still obey because there was no room in their society for the idea that the leader's heresy trumped the fact that he managed to kill his predecessor. Amon had indoctrinated them in such a manner that whether he liked it or not, Alarak's victory over Ma'lash took precedence over even Alarak's lack of loyalty to Amon.
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  #220  
Old 11-21-2015, 06:47 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Well, I can kind of get the Tal'darim thing. Alarak's big unique strength was supposed to be his talent for choosing his alliances wisely and strategically eliminating his prospective foes' alliances before a confrontation rather than just being overtly powerful enough to overwhelm anyone else.

Consequently, I got the sense that Alarak was actually convinced by Nuroka's case back in Ascension, but still betrayed him and backed Ma'lash because he judged Nuroka incapable of delivering victory against Amon even if he managed to defeat Ma'lash.

On the other hand, for all his jibes and criticisms, his very decision to join Artanis' group indicated that he deemed them viable allies who could actually help him overthrown Ma'lash and successfully take the fight to Amon.

The rest of the Tal'darim supporting Alarak afterward was kind of explained; some would have actually taken his victory as proof that Ma'lash's claims on Amon's behalf were false, while others were simply cowed into obedience by Alarak's victory proving he was the strongest.

It was kind of the built-in fault in the culture Amon had instilled in the Tal'darim. As long as only the loyal Tal'darim ruled, it worked for his purposes. However by obligating them to serve and obey those who stood above them in their hierarchy based on strength alone, it meant that whoever was most powerful and stood at the top would have the obedience of the whole tribe. Even if he turned out to be no friend of Amon's, they would still obey because there was no room in their society for the idea that the leader's heresy trumped the fact that he managed to kill his predecessor. Amon had indoctrinated them in such a manner that whether he liked it or not, Alarak's victory over Ma'lash took precedence over even Alarak's lack of loyalty to Amon.
I get it and I agree it makes sense it's mostly the retcon and the abruptness of it that bugs me.

Also that Alarak seemed... ridiculously powerful, despite his 'thing' being political maneuvers.

The Tal'darim have no Khala so what is the deal that makes them so much stronger than all the other protoss?
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  #221  
Old 11-21-2015, 07:39 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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My main problem with Alarak's betrayal is.. why now? It just seems too convenient and coincidental when you get a Tal'darim deserter right at the moment when Artanis is trying to fight Amon. Perhaps there have been renegade Tal'darim in the past who found out about the truth as well, but were dispatched quickly by Amon before being able to find assistance; but if so it's just not explained.

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Consequently, I got the sense that Alarak was actually convinced by Nuroka's case back in Ascension, but still betrayed him and backed Ma'lash because he judged Nuroka incapable of delivering victory against Amon even if he managed to defeat Ma'lash.
Perhaps, but if you take the novel's description of the character's internal psychology at its word, Nuroka only managed to plant seeds of doubt in Alarak - he wasn't totally convinced. But it did look like Alarak sided against Nuroka mostly for strategic reasons, not religious reasons.

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  #222  
Old 11-21-2015, 07:54 PM
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I get it and I agree it makes sense it's mostly the retcon and the abruptness of it that bugs me.

Also that Alarak seemed... ridiculously powerful, despite his 'thing' being political maneuvers.

The Tal'darim have no Khala so what is the deal that makes them so much stronger than all the other protoss?
Instead of the Khala, power flows up the Chain of Ascension. That is what I got from the short story.

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My main problem with Alarak's betrayal is.. why now? It just seems too convenient and coincidental when you get a Tal'darim deserter right at the moment when Artanis is trying to fight Amon. Perhaps there have been renegade Tal'darim in the past who found out about the truth as well, but were dispatched quickly by Amon before being able to find assistance; but if so it's just not explained.
Artanis is trying to fight Amon becase Amon is moving into his endgame, which does not involve the Tal'darim. This and the arrival of Artanis are the key factors in the betrayal.

I don't feel at all like an apologist. These bits make sense.
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  #223  
Old 11-21-2015, 08:04 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Instead of the Khala, power flows up the Chain of Ascension. That is what I got from the short story.
Right, it kind of fills in the last gap in the "types" of psionic power structures between the protoss and zerg. The zerg are top-down centralized, with the Swarm getting its psionic power from the direction of the mind at its top passing through a pyramid of intermediaries all the way down to the lowest zerglings. The Khala is decentralized, with the protoss sharing its power equally between every individual, from the zealot to the high templar to the khalai scientist. The Dark Templar are strictly individualistic, each one wielding their psionic power unto themselves. The Tal'Darim are bottom-up centralized, with the top of the "pyramid" fortifying its power through the reinforcement of its subordinate "tiers" starting from the bottom.

Which is kind of ironic, in a way; the subservience to Amon was theoretically contrary to the fundamental Tal'darim way, since Amon himself wasn't getting his power from the Tal'darim, while they believed they got their power from him. I.e. Amon was this eyesore of a foreign agency that didn't really fit into the hierarchy at all. One might say that by getting rid of Amon, Alarak was freeing the Tal'darim society to actually function the way it was meant to without the glaring problem of Amon's contradictory role in it.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-21-2015 at 08:06 PM..
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  #224  
Old 11-21-2015, 08:06 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Artanis is trying to fight Amon becase Amon is moving into his endgame, which does not involve the Tal'darim. This and the arrival of Artanis are the key factors in the betrayal.

I don't feel at all like an apologist. These bits make sense.
You mean Amon deliberately let the Tal'darim know or at least let his guard down about the truth, because he was moving into his endgame? Then it just makes Amon look stupid.
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  #225  
Old 11-21-2015, 08:23 PM
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You mean Amon deliberately let the Tal'darim know or at least let his guard down about the truth, because he was moving into his endgame? Then it just makes Amon look stupid.
Terrazine is a hell of a drug.

Also remember that Rohana was reading his mind the entire campaign.
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Ten.

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