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Old 06-19-2017, 04:39 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Default What are the prominent Human/Alliance stories of the First War?

Looking at Chronicles Volume II, something that jumps out at me is that the Horde has a lot more narrative going into it than the humans of Stormwind do. The Horde has the conflicts between Durotan and Gul'dan, between Blackhand and Doomhammer, all of Cho'Gall's shenanigans, and just a huge cast of characters, especially if you fold in some of the logical characters established by Warlords of Draenor, like Azuka Bladefury.

The Alliance, by contrast, has a pretty constrained number of actors during the First War; King Llane, Anduin Lothar, Khadgar, and Garona are the main characters in the story of Medivh and his downfall (and consequently the fall of Stormwind itself), with a notable appearance by Aegwynn, and aside from that you get namedrops of some supports like Gavinrad the Dire. While we know that some characters like Mara Fordragon and Natalie Seline acted DURING the First War, very little of it was given prominence in Chronicle. Ultimately, it seems like the First War was really the Horde's story.

So that's what leads to the title question: aside from those mentioned previously, what are the stories from the human side of the First War? Or is it really just Medivh's downfall?
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:39 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think one particular story is worth mentioning. Lothar's quest to reclaim the Tome of Divinity, a sacred writing of the Northshire Clerics, later used to train new paladins. Although it was not featured in Chronicle, Matt Burns confirmed it was cut because of space constraints (just as many other side stories), so it is pretty safe to assume it is still canon in some capacity. The only thing that possibly does not fit is Lothar being held in the Deadmines for over twenty months as in Warcraft I, but Warcraft II's "it was a quest that all but killed him" can still very well fit.

Another thing ties with Northshire. It was a bit dissapointing that we did not see its fall (although thankfully, there was some information on its members) in Chronicle, it certainly would make for an appealing story. Especially if tied with Mara Fordragon somehow, she was the High Clerist after all.

And finally, thanks to Chronicle, there are also Deathwing's shenanigans.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:03 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I think one particular story is worth mentioning. Lothar's quest to reclaim the Tome of Divinity, a sacred writing of the Northshire Clerics, later used to train new paladins. Although it was not featured in Chronicle, Matt Burns confirmed it was cut because of space constraints (just as many other side stories), so it is pretty safe to assume it is still canon in some capacity. The only thing that possibly does not fit is Lothar being held in the Deadmines for over twenty months as in Warcraft I, but Warcraft II's "it was a quest that all but killed him" can still very well fit.

Another thing ties with Northshire. It was a bit dissapointing that we did not see its fall (although thankfully, there was some information on its members) in Chronicle, it certainly would make for an appealing story. Especially if tied with Mara Fordragon somehow, she was the High Clerist after all.

And finally, thanks to Chronicle, there are also Deathwing's shenanigans.
Okay, so...
  1. Tome of Divinity: Lothar is on a quest to recover this MacGuffin.
  2. The Fall of Northshire Abbey: The assault on the biggest bastion of the Light outside of the Cathedral within Stormwind itself is a big deal. The question is, does it have to be the Horde that destroys it?
  3. The Black Dragonflight: Exactly what is Deathwing's beef with Stormwind again?
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Okay, so...
  1. Tome of Divinity: Lothar is on a quest to recover this MacGuffin.
  2. The Fall of Northshire Abbey: The assault on the biggest bastion of the Light outside of the Cathedral within Stormwind itself is a big deal. The question is, does it have to be the Horde that destroys it?
  3. The Black Dragonflight: Exactly what is Deathwing's beef with Stormwind again?
1. I like to imagine this is where his appearance aged considerably.

2. I'd wager that before the First War, it was the biggest bastion of the Light in Stormwind. Chronicle certainly supports the notion. The Clerics were those who spread the faith around the kingdom, and they were centered around this particular place.

As for the question. Warcraft I had this one mission where you had to defend Northshire (not sure if the abbey, perhaps an associated town) from a bunch of human rebels. I suppose it could be used in building the event. On the other hand, the actual Abbey mission was performed by the Horde. And I have always been partial to the notion it was Gul'dan and Cho'gall, using the Twilight's Hammers, who brought the place to ruin.

3. It is not exactly about Stormwind, but more about ensuring the Horde's success. In an case, I think the story of Deathwing playing a political mastermind in the north to ensure Stormwinds stays isolated does have potential.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:50 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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1. I like to imagine this is where his appearance aged considerably.

2. I'd wager that before the First War, it was the biggest bastion of the Light in Stormwind. Chronicle certainly supports the notion. The Clerics were those who spread the faith around the kingdom, and they were centered around this particular place.

As for the question. Warcraft I had this one mission where you had to defend Northshire (not sure if the abbey, perhaps an associated town) from a bunch of human rebels. I suppose it could be used in building the event. On the other hand, the actual Abbey mission was performed by the Horde. And I have always been partial to the notion it was Gul'dan and Cho'gall, using the Twilight's Hammers, who brought the place to ruin.

3. It is not exactly about Stormwind, but more about ensuring the Horde's success. In an case, I think the story of Deathwing playing a political mastermind in the north to ensure Stormwinds stays isolated does have potential.
1. I think I'm willing to buy the idea that Lothar might have been off on a grail quest for the Tome of Divinity, since he's not mentioned as doing anything specific between the Gurubashi War and Stormwind's initial response to the arrival of the Horde. That gets into some questions about the nature of the Tome itself, why it was lost, and where it ultimately ended up being. At the bottom of the Dead Mines is as reasonable a place as any, but I think getting some clarity on why it ended up there would be handy.

2. It is curious that the Cathedral in Stormwind doesn't get mentioned anywhere, with Northshire really taking the central position, you're right. Hmm.

3. The Deathwing angle is interesting, because here's how Chronicles presents things: Deathwing has generally been out of commission since the War of the Ancients, unable to use to the Dragon Soul, being torn apart by the energies of it, and the black flight has been decimated by the other flights in retribution for Deathwing's actions. He's "roused" by the opening of the Dark Portal, and gets orders from the Old Gods to aid the Horde, which he does by influencing opinion in Lordaeron and doing recon within the Horde himself.

What intrigues me is that Deathwing himself doesn't seem to be directly involved with doing stuff in Stormwind itself. Onyxia and Nefarian are not mentioned at all in Chronicles (only Sabellian, out of the Black Flight, seems to warrant a mention, during BtDP), even though we have that scene from the BtDP novel where he dispatches Nefarian to Blackrock Mountain and Onyxia to Stormwind.

I like the idea that the Black Flight might have been working at manipulating things in Stormwind even during the First War, even if "Victor Nefarius" and "Katrana Prestor" weren't necessarily the actors in play.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:05 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Looking at Chronicles Volume II, something that jumps out at me is that the Horde has a lot more narrative going into it than the humans of Stormwind do. The Horde has the conflicts between Durotan and Gul'dan, between Blackhand and Doomhammer, all of Cho'Gall's shenanigans, and just a huge cast of characters, especially if you fold in some of the logical characters established by Warlords of Draenor, like Azuka Bladefury.

The Alliance, by contrast, has a pretty constrained number of actors during the First War; King Llane, Anduin Lothar, Khadgar, and Garona are the main characters in the story of Medivh and his downfall (and consequently the fall of Stormwind itself), with a notable appearance by Aegwynn, and aside from that you get namedrops of some supports like Gavinrad the Dire. While we know that some characters like Mara Fordragon and Natalie Seline acted DURING the First War, very little of it was given prominence in Chronicle. Ultimately, it seems like the First War was really the Horde's story.

So that's what leads to the title question: aside from those mentioned previously, what are the stories from the human side of the First War? Or is it really just Medivh's downfall?
I've thought about this before, why it feels like the Horde has more narrative. I think it's a case of mathematics.

The Horde has seven-eight clans in this war. That's all the WCII clans minus the Stormreavers, except you can still count Gul'dan's Shadow Council as a clan-like entity itself, and add the Frostwolves (Black Tooth Grin don't have much prominence yet, but the Blackhands and Doomhammer still diverge here). If you look at the chieftains alone, that's at least eight potential commanders/subfactions with their own interests and battlefronts to explore.

Azeroth is the only Alliance nation in this narrative. Llane, Lothar, and recently Gavinrad are all part of the same subfaction with a singular common cause. Add in Medivh's interests and Khadgar's interests, and you have enough for a little narrative. But we don't have the wide array of distinct, semi-autonomous forces like the Horde has yet. This is because the other six human kingdoms are all on hold until the next war.

We can speculate on Mara Fordragon or maybe even Van Cleef, but we just don't have the same level of information.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:49 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I've thought about this before, why it feels like the Horde has more narrative. I think it's a case of mathematics.

The Horde has seven-eight clans in this war. That's all the WCII clans minus the Stormreavers, except you can still count Gul'dan's Shadow Council as a clan-like entity itself, and add the Frostwolves (Black Tooth Grin don't have much prominence yet, but the Blackhands and Doomhammer still diverge here). If you look at the chieftains alone, that's at least eight potential commanders/subfactions with their own interests and battlefronts to explore.

Azeroth is the only Alliance nation in this narrative. Llane, Lothar, and recently Gavinrad are all part of the same subfaction with a singular common cause. Add in Medivh's interests and Khadgar's interests, and you have enough for a little narrative. But we don't have the wide array of distinct, semi-autonomous forces like the Horde has yet. This is because the other six human kingdoms are all on hold until the next war.

We can speculate on Mara Fordragon or maybe even Van Cleef, but we just don't have the same level of information.
I think you're totally right. That's why prior to Vol. 2, my concept for a First War campaign for the Alliance brought in actors like Gavinrad and Aedelas Blackmoore, just for the sake of having more folks in play with divergent narratives.

With Vol. 2 constraining all of the non-Stormwind actors out of play with Deathwing's misinformation gambit, we're basically in a scenario where we've got to basically invent a lot of complication in the Stormwind faction in order to try and rival what the Horde brings to the table.

Now thankfully, we've got a couple tools we can do to do that. The fact that the film canonized Queen Taria (even if she was just killed off during the siege of Stormwind) provides an actor that can be deployed. It also opens the door for someone like Callan Lothar to be brought into play; yeah, his character was awful in the film, but there's still value in exploring the idea that Lothar has got a teenage son; there's even a convenient 18-year gap between the Gurubashi War, which Lothar was an active player in.

Looking at other Stormwind narratives we've got in WoW and working their way back to the First War is basically the only other option we've got. Van Cleef is a great example of someone you can do that with. Mara Fordragon, clearly.

Another person you can play with in that sense, though, is Tiffin Ellerian.

The details we know about her origins are sketchy, but can be spun out pretty readily: principally, we know that the Ellerian family wasn't part of the nobility, because Tiffin's marriage to Varian was intended to get their family into the House of Nobles. It stands to reason that the kind of person who would have the political clout to accomplish that kind of caste-jump would be a rich merchant. This meshes with the note that Tiffin taught Varian economics while Varian is the one who taught Tiffin about etiquette.

Let's imagine the Ellerian family as a mercantile clan, perhaps with relations to the noble maritime families of Kul Tiras*. Tors Ellerian is one of the preeminent trade barons of Stormwind, and the only way for him to advance his family's social position would be to join the House of Nobles. King Llane, relatively new to his reign after Barathen's death, would have been advised to make more allies among the elite in order to secure his dynasty, and elevating a rich merchant family to the noble caste would be a way to do that. Hence the marriage contract between Varian and the infant Tiffin was struck.

(*): This could be spun out to imply a relation with the Proudmoore family, giving greater weight to Anduin calling Jaina his aunt, and yeah I know it's probably just a term of endearment but I liked the idea of working on the superficial similarities between Jaina and Tiffin.
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