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  #26  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:10 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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What evidence do you have they powered their spells on fel?
They are -ORCISH WARLOCKS-. Why the hell would they use Arcane magic to power their spells?

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Are you honestly suggesting Kael'thas' spells in the first three missions were fel-powered because apparently modern day warlocks use those spells as well? This is ridiculous.
And obviously fel spheres flying around him was ridiculous as well? And fel magic ball throwing? And the Battlenet entry?

Many of the stoic high elves, reeling from the loss of their ancient homeland, Quel'Thalas, have given in to their hatred and despair and embraced the dark side of their magical natures. Calling themselves 'Blood Elves' - these cold hearted refugees seek to expand their remaining magical powers at any cost - even if it means courting the infernal powers of the Burning Legion! Though still loyal to the Alliance, the Blood Elves' passions will lead them not only to the highest pinnacles of power, but to the darkest depths of madness.

Kael didn't absorb demonic magic, so as not to fall to corruption, but he was still using the same "infernal powers" as his spells.

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The only similarity being they're both addictive. Other than that, they're two completely different things.
Both addictive, both draw the demons, both affect the user, both warp the land into anomalies, both emulate "natural" magic effects through the magical essense... Nope, no relation at all.
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  #27  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:16 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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They are -ORCISH WARLOCKS-. Why the hell would they use Arcane magic to power their spells?
Yeah, how silly of me. Except the burden of proof is on YOU. YOU are making the claim that orcish warlocks power all of their spells using fel in WC3.

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And obviously fel spheres flying around him was ridiculous as well? And fel magic ball throwing? And the Battlenet entry?
Ah, yes. And his eyes being white colored and not entering in contact with a demon for the whole damn game up to the fourth/fifth mission of the Alliance campaign? Hell, pretty sure the priest models had green eyes during the Garithos missions. Does that mean they were fel addicted before even going to Outland or fighting a demon?
Did those blood elves know how to drain magic from demons before Illidan even met them?
I'm guessing Gameplay Mechanics, as it's way more convenient to have the Kael-fel addicted model for the most of the campaign and not bother making TWO models.
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  #28  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:19 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Is Fel..... Arcane?
Nope! They are two separate schools of magic.

Schools being the most important word in this sentence. Why is it important? Because them being separate schools does not mean that fel isn't arcane magic, as in the branch of magic that gets it's power from ley lines and not greater beings like divine magic. You guys have got to separate the school of magic from the powersource!

Edit: Cemo, who uses his head, followed up by asking if both use the same source of power. This question has not been answered, so for now, we don't know.

Last edited by Nazja; 07-15-2013 at 05:02 AM..
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  #29  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:19 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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  #30  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:21 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Yeah, how silly of me. Except the burden of proof is on YOU. YOU are making the claim that orcish warlocks power all of their spells using fel in WC3.
What ELSE would ORCISH WARLOCKS power their spells with?! Shamanism?! Druidism?! Arcane magic stolen from Dalaran?!

Use your HEAD!

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Ah, yes. And his eyes being white colored and not entering in contact with a demon for the whole damn game up to the fourth/fifth mission of the Alliance campaign? Hell, pretty sure the priest models had green eyes during the Garithos missions. Does that mean they were fel addicted before even going to Outland or fighting a demon?
Did those blood elves know how to drain magic from demons before Illidan even met them?
I'm guessing Gameplay Mechanics, as it's way more convenient to have the Kael-fel addicted model for the most of the campaign and not bother making TWO models.
They weren't fel-addicted yet, because they didn't siphon fel magic before Illidan's suggestion.

And, if anyone is interested, it's painfully easy to make the blood mage model "unaddicted", as done by myself:

-Delete the hidden "sphere" ability.

-Change the projectile attack from the sphere to something else.

Voila.
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  #31  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:24 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Is Fel..... Arcane?
Nope! They are two separate schools of magic.
...that explicitly states fel is not arcane.

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What ELSE would ORCISH WARLOCKS power their spells with?! Shamanism?! Druidism?! Arcane magic stolen from Dalaran?!
Gul'dan taught ogres to cast fire spells implying they knew how to use fire. Maybe the warlocks were using fire and shamanism? (Shadow too)

Last edited by Pixy; 07-15-2013 at 04:31 AM..
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  #32  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:25 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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...that explicitly states fel is not arcane.
School.
It's almost like saying Elune isn't Light. (Although, with the way they are setting things up...)
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  #33  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:27 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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School.
It's almost like saying Elune isn't Light. (Although, with the way they are setting things up...)
The guy asked if Fel is Arcane. Blizz said no. THEN they said they're two different schools of magic. It's an extra detail, but the answer still stands; No.

Elune isn't the Light paladins and ordinary priests use. Elune Light is Elune Light.
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  #34  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:27 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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I love when people push everything they say as facts.
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  #35  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:33 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
...that explicitly states fel is not arcane.
It -isn't-, but that doesn't mean they can't be related.


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Gul'dan taught ogres to cast fire spells implying they knew how to use fire. Maybe the warlocks were using fire and shamanism?
Except for the part where the spirits dissed the orcs for accepting fel taint and wanted nothing to do with them. Zuluhed, Ner'zhul, Nekros.
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  #36  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:35 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Except for the part where the spirits dissed the orcs for accepting fel taint and wanted nothing to do with them. Zuluhed, Ner'zhul, Nekros.
What about fire and shadow, then? Seem convenient sources for a warlock.
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  #37  
Old 07-15-2013, 04:36 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
The guy asked if Fel is Arcane. Blizz said no. THEN they said they're two different schools of magic. It's an extra detail, but the answer still stands; No.
Cemo followed up by asking if both use the same source of power. This question has not been answered, so for now, we don't know what power source they use.

Anyways, that "extra detail" is far more important than you think. It tells you that you should word your questions more carefully, if you don't want to hear an obvious answer to a question you didn't mean to be interpreted that way.

And, now, cue my dramatic getaway.

Last edited by Nazja; 07-15-2013 at 05:00 AM..
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  #38  
Old 07-15-2013, 05:00 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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What about fire and shadow, then? Seem convenient sources for a warlock.
Have you read "The Last Guardian"?

One can't simply "tap" into fire or shadow. When a shaman uses a fire spell, he uses natural fire, as given (or taken) from the elemental spirits. When a mage or a warlock uses a fire spell, they use "fake" fire that is processed through transmuting the essence of magic into a physical form: for example, a mage can "think" his magic missile into being a fireball, a frostbolt, or leave it as pure arcane missiles. Warlock's fire is always with some "dark" side effect that is left on the user: burning soul, searing pain, internal immolation etc.

To compare with something else... Think of Force Lightning from Star Wars. It looks like lightning, but is actually a reoresentation of raw "dark" emotions being thrown by caster onto his or her enemy.

I am not an expert on shadow and won't comment here, mostly because I'm not sure what kind of magic do the necromancers use to power their spells - pure arcane (evidence: Kel'Thuzad's necromantic experiments in Dalaran, the appearance of Black Mages in wc3), fel (evidence: vast necromantic powers of the Legion), or "dark" divine (evidence: necrolytes training in temples, Scourge treating the Lich King as a god an possibly tapping from "his" magic source). But I suppose it can be used in the same manner as fire (tap into magic essence --> produce the "shadow" form for the spell) OR it can also be directly connected with the realm of Voidwalkers, who are these not-exactly-demons-but-sort-of-primoridal-void-elementals.

In short, magical damage dealt (like the "arcane" damage of the druids) does not always equate with the power used to give said damage physical form.

(That being said, ToW has a suggestion that mages are basically dark shamans, but I'm not sure if this a retcon of TLG. or just a proposed theory)
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  #39  
Old 07-15-2013, 05:48 AM
TSCR TSCR is offline

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That was certainly a good read and you gave me a different perspective on Warcraft III. You just made a few mistakes regarding the lore. For instance, Archimonde isn't a Dreadlord (he's a draenei/eredar) as you said in the Blackrock & Roll Too! review.



Actually, without competent figureheads leading the charge, the Legion would have had many problems in Kalimdor. The bulk of the Legion's forces were made of Scourge agents, and nobody knew how to command them better than Arthas and Kel'thuzad, even if they didn't make an appearance at the Battle of Mount Hyjal.



False.

The Well was a creation of Titan origins, being pretty much a bottomless source of Arcane magic crafted by the Titans. It didn't draw its powers from the nether. Archimonde comes from the planet Argus, the homeworld of the draenei

The main school of magic of the Legion is actually Fel magic, as they don't use Arcane magic much if at all. That claim about stealing magic from them makes sense if we're talking about Archimonde's origins, Argus. The eredar were very keen on using arcane magic, being possibly the most skilled race in using arcane magic.



Well, uhm, Kaldorei means "Children of the Stars", and that's a term used for night elves, not tauren.
Thanks. I guess I did make a few errors since the lore is huge.

1. Where did I say Archimonde was a Dreadlord? I'm aware that he's an eredar so if I said he was a dreadlord somwhere then it was probably a typo.

2. Well what you say may be true, Archimonde still says that the Lich King is of no more use to him and that dreadlords should now command the Scourge. He made it sound like he didn't need Arthas or Kel'Thuzad at all.

3. Right, I'll fix that up.

4. Sorry I thought Kaldorei is a general term used to apply for all races of Kalimdor (is there even a term for that?). Looks like I was getting mixed up with StarCraft terminology. Guess I 'll have to fix that as well.
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  #40  
Old 07-15-2013, 06:19 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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hey use "fake" fire that is processed through transmuting the essence of magic into a physical form: for example, a mage can "think" his magic missile into being a fireball, a frostbolt, or leave it as pure arcane missiles.
I think Shamans draw their powers directly from Ragnaros while Mages & Warlocks use an artificial type of fire.

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1. Where did I say Archimonde was a Dreadlord? I'm aware that he's an eredar so if I said he was a dreadlord somwhere then it was probably a typo.
Blackrock&Roll Too! review. I may have misread but I'm sure it said something among the line.
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  #41  
Old 07-15-2013, 06:43 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I think Shamans draw their powers directly from Ragnaros while Mages & Warlocks use an artificial type of fire.
Sort of... There is the Element of Fire as shown in Thrall's spiritual travels in LOTC, but whether it's actually Ragnaros or not is hard to say.

The artifical fire needs to be made from something - that being arcane/fel magic given materialized form.
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  #42  
Old 07-15-2013, 06:47 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Sort of... There is the Element of Fire as shown in Thrall's spiritual travels in LOTC, but whether it's actually Ragnaros or not is hard to say.

The artifical fire needs to be made from something - that being arcane/fel magic given materialized form.
That explains Felfire, which is basically green fire. As for artificial, ordinary fire, I think it's a converted type of Arcane.
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  #43  
Old 07-15-2013, 06:53 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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That explains Felfire, which is basically green fire. As for artificial, ordinary fire, I think it's a converted type of Arcane.
But other types of warlock fire are similarly faint-tainted with dark soul-affecting after effects, regardless of whether they are colored red, green or purple. Fel similarly powers other "darker" forms of spells, like Demon Armor, stone of health and the like.

Though I wonder whether Felfire or the green liquid thing is the "pure" form of fel.
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  #44  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:05 PM
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After a couple of delays, I finally got my review of the night elf campaign done so if you're interested then here's the link:

http://videogamestoryplotnarrativean...ign-of_25.html

Unfortunately I found it to be the weakest of the four campaigns so I tried to explain how I thought it could have been done better. I hope I did that well enough.
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  #45  
Old 07-25-2013, 02:27 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Tyrande isnít as calculating and careful as the other elves. Sheís bold but she prefers to rush in rather than to consider every possibility. This makes her stand out among the elves because usually the elves are portrayed as the careful calculating race. You can see Tyrandeís lack of care with how she swiftly decides to kill the Alliance and Horde members. If she had carefully considered their words she would have noticed something else: the grunt says that theyíre here to hunt the remaining demons. Now remember that the night elves are unaware of the legionís return but just now Tyrande has heard an orc speaking of demons. If Tyrande had thought about what he had just said then she might have caught onto the legionís return earlier however her character flaw prevented this from occurring.
The night elves have their own language, and they never entered in contact with many humans and orcs by that point (Rhonin and Broxiggar only I guess) so she wouldn't know their language. This explains why she didn't care what they talked about at all.

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The legionís plan originally was to have the undead assault the night elves, orcs and humans when they fought each other.
The bulk of Legion forces there were Scourge. Only Archimonde's personal guard were actual Burning Legion agents, and that was made of Tichondrius, some dreadlords, pit lords and some other demons. They just used the undead because they make great fodder.

Last edited by Pixy; 07-25-2013 at 02:35 AM..
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  #46  
Old 07-25-2013, 04:58 AM
TSCR TSCR is offline

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The night elves have their own language, and they never entered in contact with many humans and orcs by that point (Rhonin and Broxiggar only I guess) so she wouldn't know their language. This explains why she didn't care what they talked about at all.
But don't the night elves speak the common tongue? How did Tyrande and Malfurion communicate with the Jaina and Thrall later on when Medivh arranged them all to meet? Neither of them knew they were going to meet Jaina or Thrall so I doubt they learnt their language beforehand.

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The bulk of Legion forces there were Scourge. Only Archimonde's personal guard were actual Burning Legion agents, and that was made of Tichondrius, some dreadlords, pit lords and some other demons. They just used the undead because they make great fodder.
I'm not sure why you said this because I don't think anything I wrote clashes with it.
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  #47  
Old 07-25-2013, 05:19 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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But don't the night elves speak the common tongue? How did Tyrande and Malfurion communicate with the Jaina and Thrall later on when Medivh arranged them all to meet? Neither of them knew they were going to meet Jaina or Thrall so I doubt they learnt their language beforehand.
Let's just say "it's complicated".

But, yes, the night elves understood humans, and even orcish runes (as TFT shows us... though, if the World Editor is to be believed, those are demonic runes)
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  #48  
Old 07-25-2013, 05:24 AM
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I can not take part now in discussion - it is very occupied. I will be free - I will necessarily write that I think.
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  #49  
Old 07-25-2013, 05:28 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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I can not take part now in discussion - it is very occupied. I will be free - I will necessarily write that I think.
That's almost... cute.

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I'm not sure why you said this because I don't think anything I wrote clashes with it.
You said the Legion unleashed the Scourge on the front lines for the surprise factor, but in reality the Scourge was really their only strong fighting force present there..
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  #50  
Old 07-25-2013, 06:15 AM
TSCR TSCR is offline

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You said the Legion unleashed the Scourge on the front lines for the surprise factor, but in reality the Scourge was really their only strong fighting force present there..
Perhaps I wasn't clear about what I meant.

What I meant was that an intelligent army leader who's facing off against multiple enemies doesn't just attack them all at once. Instead they make their enemies fight among themselves. Then all their enemies will let their guard down and not expect another attack.

That's why I consider Tyrande's method of dealing with the orcs and humans to be immature. She sees that they're not on the best terms and given the night evles abilities they could easily create incidents that could cause the orcs and humans to fight among one another. Then both of them would have their guard down so it would be ideal for Tyrande to attack them. Instead Tyrande decides to attack them both directly which is quite foolhardy considering what she could have done.

What I mean about the Burning Legion is that they take the approach that Tyrande should have taken. They wait until the humans, orcs and night elves are fighting one another and then they unleash the undead to attack them. They're not reckless like Tyrande and just directly attack them. They wait for each faction to lower their guard as they fight among each other. Then they get the undead to launch a sneaky but effective attack on the humans, orcs and night elves.

I don't think I said anything about the Burning Legion being there in large numbers nor do I see how that's even relevant to what I was saying. The important thing is that the legion waited for their enemies to fight among themselves before unleashing the undead upon them. That's what made their attack effective.
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