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Old 03-10-2019, 09:46 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Default The problem with the Titans

First off, I'd ask you to pay attention to this:



You can even just scan through the video quickly skipping most of it, the idea is to watch the character introduction.

Gods/deities/special monsters, also represented as summons in the various universes of Final Fantasy, almost never have their origins explained. They are almost like 'forces of nature', as if they were always there when the party encounters them.

Quite a strong contrast to the lore in Warcraft.

The lore in Warcraft, as it is right now, has almost everything tied to the titans' work of creation and experimentation.

Final fantasy, in most of its games, expresses the fantasy of journeying into unknown lands and meeting fantastic beasts. Warcraft, rightfully so, doesn't express the same fantasy; it used to express some fantasy of fantastic warfare.

But when you think on the lore, post-Chronicle, to me it seems that right now the only thing Warcraft lore can express is "creator fantasy". Or, in a more rude way, "developer fantasy". And that's the issue.

As if everything in Warcraft could be tied back to the presence and actions of developers.

Fictional universe self-insert versions of developers.

Creators,

"Titans",

Quite an arrogant name at that, even.

In which, titans were beings greater than gods in Greek mythology.

The feeling that Final Fantasy expresses when you meet a mysterious powerful creature is very common in fantasy RPGs, and yet it's so absent in WoW.

(oddly though, I had that feeling when traversing through Northrend in WC3)

Warcraft lore has cursed itself by providing too much explanation to some stuff that didn't really need, and especially, by providing an equivalent to self-inserts of the developers, which are the titans.

Tying everything to the titans, as in a creation of the titans, means the lore-ification (lore-insertion) of the act of game developing. As in, programming and modelling a new creature.

And that's, in my opinion, even more disgusting-and-boring than having an annoying character as the self-insert of the creator of the story.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:00 PM
DarkAngel DarkAngel is offline

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Quote:
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Personally, I didn't have a problem with Titan unification -- so long as the Titans remained a mysterious, long-vanished force that could only be known through the evidence it left behind. When the Titans showed up in person and needed our help, THAT was a problem.

The Titans should be powerful and far-sighted beyond mortal comprehension; and as long as they stay that way, there isn't harm in making them the guiding force behind everything. But when players are conversing with gods and catastrophically altering the cosmic balance of power, it puts us on an equal footing with they who created all things -- and that, in turn, trivializes all things.

So, while the underlying purpose of the game may be to allow ordinary people to feel powerful and heroic, there's only so far the fantasy can go before it becomes transparently absurd. You can't tickle yourself, you can't lie to yourself, and you can't believe anything you know to be a lie. We are not gods, and any claim to the contrary will always ring hollow.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:42 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I think the developer insert is an unintended consequence of trying to streamline everything in the lore. It's very similar to Ultimate Marvel in my opinion.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Yeah, they made the Titans far too ubiquitous, and now the Horde 'ties' to them in Zandalar feel shoehorned in.
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:39 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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I don't know about Titans being "self-inserts" of the Developers, but I do agree post-Chronicles Lore explains too much and leaves no room for speculation/creativity.

I think Titans were just the most convenient element to base everything else on.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:47 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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To be frank, Warcraft III already laid out the Titans as the creative force behind all of Azeroth, so Chronicle has not changed much. But exposition is generally a problem in most modern fantasy aye.
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:51 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
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To be frank, Warcraft III already laid out the Titans as the creative force behind all of Azeroth, so Chronicle has not changed much. But exposition is generally a problem in most modern fantasy aye.
Yes but Chronicle is what made them explicitly so much stronger than even the old gods, with Amanthul squishing Yshaarj between his fingers

[Which, tbh, is pretty silly]

And the game has gradually walked back the impressiveness of non titan and non old god stuff

Like, even as awesome as Rezan and some of the other loa are visually, they and the other dragons / demigods and the like feel much less impressive than thru used to because we have to save them all the time
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:17 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Well, squishing between fingers never happened, but that's not particularly important.

(But for that matter, I'd say this particular artwork is rather representative of what the text was inferring; Aman'thul.)

I am simply not sure how much is that contrary to Warcraft III's account, and how much is that conflagrating this account with World of Warcraft's rather inconsistent and messy lore on the titans. As while reading Chronicle, I'd don't really see anything opposing the image presented in Warcraft III, it feels far more like its expansion than anything else.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:23 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Warcraft III never suggested that the Titans and, especially, their keepers, were robot-like and portrayed programmer lingo.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:35 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The titans aren't self-inserts; they're basically Marvel's Celestials. Gargantuan 'machine-men" wielding cosmic powers to shape life on countless worlds who, while immensely powerful, can still be opposed by other agencies of comparable might and universality. It's just a derivation of WoW's heavily comic-based influences and inspirations.

As with the Marvel comics universe, WarCraft presents the existence of magic and technology functioning as "paths" in tandem rather than in fundamental opposition (which would put it more in line with DC's angle on such things). The more advanced tech gets, the more it behaves like magic; the more advanced magic gets, the more technological it becomes. And at the interdimensional, "cosmic" level of the most powerful beings, the two often intersect as fantastical, hybridized "magitech" wherein enormous machines can channel, manipulate and interchange the underlying laws and energies of reality itself on an incomprehensibly massive scale.
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