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  #1151  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:11 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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And please, I'd love to see you get a group of 25 strangers together, enter an LFR, and do absolutely nothing. Seriously. Go in, and do nothing. Tell me how long it takes you to complete it. Better yet, you can use one healer and two dps. If LFR is as mindless as you say, you should easily be able to clear it using three people.
Actually, I've AFKed in LFR multiple times. And anyone who brings it up, they often get booted for being rude.

Sorry you won't be getting a set bonus that would have been rather pointless on someone who doesn't progress.

No matter how much you may try, LFR will always be the simplest, easiest thing added to an MMO in a long, long, LONG ASS time. It requires the barest amount of thought. Its built for not needing much co-operation beyond "heal this, tank this".

It's only there to show you the raid. Its about as involved as watching a movie.
  #1152  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:13 PM
Darkwind Darkwind is offline

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If they wanted to go this way with LFR, I think they should have just scrapped it and made 'solo' raids, where your Garrison soldiers accompany you. This way, it becomes a way to test your skill in a raid (Your soldiers are only as good as you are), allow people to see the raid without committing to a schedule, and it eliminates the atrocious LFR behavior.
  #1153  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I just hope that pve and pvp stays out of my Garrison armours. If they decide to only allow certain people to get those sets, even I may simply take my business elsewhere.
  #1154  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:17 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Well, I suppose pet battles is the only thing seperate from PvE. I would advocate for the raid pets being removed and available to pet battlers truth be told. A gear would also be nice. Though it having stats would be out of the question.

I suppose we can't have much discussion on this subject without having some examples of other methods of gameplay blizz could offer.
Add full sets of things to reps is one. No, they don't need to be as good as raiding, or even dungeons, but it would give people something to work towards. But new reps should reward newer, slightly more powerful gear.

Thinking on crafting, they did have this with the crafted PvP gear. Each patch you can craft slightly more powerful gear without needing to step into a raid. Maybe have some mats you need to get from higher level scenarios, or harder solo events.

They way they handled the gearing in Dungeons during Wrath and Cata are ways to do that properly.

These also all work as great catchup mechanics for those who are interested in raiding but start a few patches late.

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Put some effort into it and get rewarded.
There's more than one way to put effort into a game.
  #1155  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:20 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Actually, I've AFKed in LFR multiple times. And anyone who brings it up, they often get booted for being rude.

Sorry you won't be getting a set bonus that would have been rather pointless on someone who doesn't progress.

No matter how much you may try, LFR will always be the simplest, easiest thing added to an MMO in a long, long, LONG ASS time. It requires the barest amount of thought. Its built for not needing much co-operation beyond "heal this, tank this".

It's only there to show you the raid. Its about as involved as watching a movie.
I've done plenty of heroic MoP dungeons with only three people. If that's the case, and LFR is so simple it's the equivalent of simply watching a movie, I'll look forward to the recording of you and two others clearing LFR SoO.

We both know you're full of shit though, so I won't actually be waiting. You can go back to your dreams of "prestige" now.
  #1156  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:23 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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  #1157  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:24 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Garotar View Post
Add full sets of things to reps is one. No, they don't need to be as good as raiding, or even dungeons, but it would give people something to work towards. But new reps should reward newer, slightly more powerful gear.

Thinking on crafting, they did have this with the crafted PvP gear. Each patch you can craft slightly more powerful gear without needing to step into a raid. Maybe have some mats you need to get from higher level scenarios, or harder solo events.

They way they handled the gearing in Dungeons during Wrath and Cata are ways to do that properly.

These also all work as great catchup mechanics for those who are interested in raiding but start a few patches late.



There's more than one way to put effort into a game.
Well reps did that in MoP, till the last patch. Rep vendors gave raid quality gear. Shado-pan vendors in 5.2 gave raid quality gear: and quests gave valor to buy it. Having their own model would been fine with me. Kinda wish the clan armors would be like that: rep vendors giving a clans armor.

But none the less, the end result was always the same: this stuff is for raiding. You're progressing towards raiding.
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I've done plenty of heroic MoP dungeons with only three people. If that's the case, and LFR is so simple it's the equivalent of simply watching a movie, I'll look forward to the recording of you and two others clearing LFR SoO.

We both know you're full of shit though, so I won't actually be waiting. You can go back to your dreams of "prestige" now.
When did you do these? Later patches when you out geared them, or when they were new?

Likewise, have you done any challenge modes?

I can't believe you're actually defending LFR as not being simple and easy.
  #1158  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:30 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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LFR is simple and easy, but what's wrong with that? Why is it necessary to run it down just so the other modes look better? If the harder modes are supposed to be more rewarding, then make them more rewarding, but don't do this at the expense of LFR. Add heirlooms, mounts and/or extra gear like Garry's shoulders. Don't take stuff away that's been there since LFR's inception.
  #1159  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:31 PM
CosmicGuitars CosmicGuitars is offline

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There's literally no justification for tier to drop in LFR. It's the epitome of welfare epics. Flex modes are only a little bit harder and require coordination. Put some effort into it and you'll still be able to get the rudimentary tier gear.
  #1160  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:33 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
LFR is simple and easy, but what's wrong with that? Why is it necessary to run it down just so the other modes look better? If the harder modes are supposed to be more rewarding, then make them more rewarding, but don't do this at the expense of LFR. Add heirlooms, mounts and/or extra gear like Garry's shoulders. Don't take stuff away that's been there since LFR's inception.
LFR still getting unique colored armor and perhaps fully unique shoulders and head (judging from datamined icons). Still getting weapons too, which may be unique color: same as current LFR.

If they do end up getting shoulders and head models that are different from honor: and again, I can only base this on datamined icons atm, then LFR is, if anything, gaining from what it was getting in MoP.

Quote:
There's literally no justification for tier to drop in LFR. It's the epitome of welfare epics. Flex modes are only a little bit harder and require coordination. Put some effort into it and you'll still be able to get the rudimentary tier gear.
This too. Flex isn't really hard. Easily pugged.
  #1161  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:34 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Well reps did that in MoP, till the last patch. Rep vendors gave raid quality gear. Shado-pan vendors in 5.2 gave raid quality gear: and quests gave valor to buy it. Having their own model would been fine with me. Kinda wish the clan armors would be like that: rep vendors giving a clans armor.

But none the less, the end result was always the same: this stuff is for raiding. You're progressing towards raiding.
Admittedly I didn't play much in MoP but more like that would be good, and they should exist at the start. But maybe without the valor cost.

If the end result is to try to make it easier for people, especially newer players who want to raid, into raiding, then those catch up mechanics work as a way of gear progression for non-raiders. They just need to be included as part of the first patch.

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Originally Posted by CosmicGuitars View Post
There's literally no justification for tier to drop in LFR. It's the epitome of welfare epics. Flex modes are only a little bit harder and require coordination. Put some effort into it and you'll still be able to get the rudimentary tier gear.
There's really no reason not to either, since people are still putting effort in. No effort would mean Blizzard gives you a way to conjure gear up from no where with the press of a button.
  #1162  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:36 PM
Blackearth Blackearth is offline

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Bonechewer is mentioned. Tagar Spinebreaker is in the Shadow Council and I saw that Hurkan has a model.
Thank you. I didn't know that.
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  #1163  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:36 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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I remember hearing that, besides the removal of tier sets from LFR gear, the item level for it was actually also being lowered to be the same level as Heroic 5-mans.

Has that second part changed? Because if not, it does make LFR strictly worse than every other method of gearing up in the game.
  #1164  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:36 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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The difference is, the Minions were actually adorable and endearing.
  #1165  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:37 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Garotar View Post
Admittedly I didn't play much in MoP but more like that would be good, and they should exist at the start. But maybe without the valor cost.

If the end result is to try to make it easier for people, especially newer players who want to raid, into raiding, then those catch up mechanics work as a way of gear progression for non-raiders. They just need to be included as part of the first patch.
They may end up going with that system again in WoD. Faction vendor stuff often comes late.

They also added raid quality gear to other aspects of the game. Like Timeless Isle where the gear is better than LFR. Or Heroic scenarios which rewarded better than LFR gear as well.

Quote:
I remember hearing that, besides the removal of tier sets from LFR gear, the item level for it was actually also being lowered to be the same level as Heroic 5-mans.

Has that second part changed? Because if not, it does make LFR strictly worse than every other method of gearing up in the game.
Unless it was changed, Heroic dungeons give better than LFR, but also have had their difficulty raised. There are two types of end game dungeon: normal ones, and heroic. Normal are like the MoP heroics.
  #1166  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:39 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
When did you do these? Later patches when you out geared them, or when they were new?

Likewise, have you done any challenge modes?

I can't believe you're actually defending LFR as not being simple and easy.
1. I did them a couple patches later. But that shouldn't matter, since you just said that LFR is the easiest thing added to an MMO in a long, long, LONG time. It's equivalent to literally doing nothing but looking at a screen as a movie plays. You should have no problem three manning any LFR at any stage of the game.

2. No, I've never done any challenge modes. I have no interest in doing them.

3. You should go back and reread my posts, because I've admitted from the beginning that LFR is the easiest of all raid difficulties. But it's not as mind-numbingly retarded easy as you're claiming it to be. It requires a significant investment of time, and it's difficulty is higher than any heroic 5-mans. I find the removal of tier to be an arbitrary thing done to appease people like yourself, who were angry that the "prestige" of tier was tainted by the underclass of players who only did LFR.
  #1167  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:43 PM
CosmicGuitars CosmicGuitars is offline

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Originally Posted by Garotar View Post
There's really no reason not to either, since people are still putting effort in. No effort would mean Blizzard gives you a way to conjure gear up from no where with the press of a button.
"There's no reason not to" is not a justification to do it.
  #1168  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:45 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
1. I did them a couple patches later. But that shouldn't matter, since you just said that LFR is the easiest thing added to an MMO in a long, long, LONG time. It's equivalent to literally doing nothing but looking at a screen as a movie plays. You should have no problem three manning any LFR at any stage of the game.

2. No, I've never done any challenge modes. I have no interest in doing them.

3. You should go back and reread my posts, because I've admitted from the beginning that LFR is the easiest of all raid difficulties. But it's not as mind-numbingly retarded easy as you're claiming it to be. It requires a significant investment of time, and it's difficulty is higher than any heroic 5-mans. I find the removal of tier to be an arbitrary thing done to appease people like yourself, who were angry that the "prestige" of tier was tainted by the underclass of players who only did LFR.
1. It should matter and it does. Its the functional equivalent of saying "I can solo ICC 10m now, so this means its always been this easy. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

3. I'll admit, some people need to be doing the encounter to pass LFR. The thing is, LFR has been tonned down so much from the normal equivalent, that you don't need that many people actually focusing on whats going on. End result is that you can often que up for a LFR and do nothing while reaping the benefits. If you look at a recount for an LFR you often see half or more of the DPS doing nothing, or so little that it may as well be nothing, and only one or two healers actually healing worth a damn. Often one doing no healing. Solo tanking LFR is also fairly common.
  #1169  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:45 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by CosmicGuitars View Post
"There's no reason not to" is not a justification to do it.
Your reasoning isn't justification either.

If your only premise on if someone deserves something is that they work for it, then people in LFR are working for tier now. Removing it from LFR because people are not working for it is not a reason to remove it.

EDIT: What I hear you saying is that people are not meeting my arbitrary definition of effort, therefore them asking for things that they've always got is not really fair because I don't think they deserve it now anyway.

Last edited by Garotar; 07-04-2014 at 02:49 PM..
  #1170  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:47 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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I like the LFR change, very much.
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  #1171  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:47 PM
CosmicGuitars CosmicGuitars is offline

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Originally Posted by Garotar View Post
Your reasoning isn't justification either.

If your only premise on if someone deserves something is that they work for it, then people in LFR are working for tier now. Removing it from LFR because people are not working for it is not a reason to remove it.
Just because you invest time into something doesn't mean that it was earned. Look at the legendary cloak as a prime example of that. That's not even really considered a legendary item by the general population because you can acquire it by AFKing through LFR for weeks. LFR is not enough of a challenge to warrant tier gear, especially with Blizzard pushing the idea they want it to just be a mode where you just see the content.
  #1172  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:47 PM
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One good thing coming out of this discussion is learning which elitist assholes I should block.
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  #1173  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:48 PM
Niars Niars is offline

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Given the ramped difficulty of heroics in WoD and the introduction of flex, I suspect the removal of Tier from LFR was done to encourage more people into slightly more organised raiding (LFR is mindless. Time investment is irrelevant. It's 2 hours of -not thinking-), than it was to punish anyone.
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  #1174  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:50 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by CosmicGuitars View Post
Just because you invest time into something doesn't mean that it was earned.
Why not? What more than time to people really need to give to earn anything?

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Look at the legendary cloak as a prime example of that. That's not even really considered a legendary item by the general population because you can acquire it by AFKing through LFR for weeks.
So that make it common. It's still a legendary item though.

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LFR is not enough of a challenge to warrant tier gear, especially with Blizzard pushing the idea they want it to just be a mode where you just see the content.
Why?
  #1175  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:51 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Niars View Post
Given the ramped difficulty of heroics in WoD and the introduction of flex, I suspect the removal of Tier from LFR was done to encourage more people into slightly more organised raiding (LFR is mindless. Time investment is irrelevant. It's 2 hours of -not thinking-), than it was to punish anyone.
Of course, but then, they could just have added more carrots to flex instead of taking some from LFR.
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