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  #32601  
Old 03-25-2015, 11:11 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Yeah, I've heard some odd stories about "South of the Border". Doesn't really sound worse than any other franchise, though I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance: I haven't actually set foot in one.
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  #32602  
Old 03-25-2015, 01:37 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
That would be far too cruel to do to perps. Police get in enough trouble shooting at someone in the first place. Not that billy clubs aren't used anyways, but they don't seem to make the news as much as shootings do. Using a billy club would probably be seen as pure abuse rather than attempts to use a control a resisting perp.
I would rather have some bruises or even a broken bone or two than be dead. Besides, every time someone dies during an arrest, the police get an even worse reputation due to our media always portraying it as a conspiracy of racism or something.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 03-25-2015 at 01:39 PM..
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  #32603  
Old 03-25-2015, 02:54 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I agree with you.
Good!

Jeez I don't want to privatize everything.
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  #32604  
Old 03-25-2015, 03:15 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
I would rather have some bruises or even a broken bone or two than be dead. Besides, every time someone dies during an arrest, the police get an even worse reputation due to our media always portraying it as a conspiracy of racism or something.
The civil rights people would go ballistic and compare it to the racial abuse of the 1960s and before, a call back to the days of slavery and such.

In all honesty, the police are in a no win situation. They do something, the media and people overreact (and forget/ignore the many times the police get things right), and if the police don't do anything, or hesitate for fear of causing an incident, the media and people overreact about that. No to mention you have people who go out looking to taunt the police and/or cause such incidents, which make people overreact. For all too many of the media and civil rights types like Al Sharpton, damned near -every- incident is because of racial bias/hatred and the police are at fault.
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  #32605  
Old 03-25-2015, 09:45 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Bad bill.
Good bill.
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  #32606  
Old 03-25-2015, 10:13 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Good bill.
Good Bill.
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  #32607  
Old 03-25-2015, 10:32 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Bad Bill?

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  #32608  
Old 03-25-2015, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Good bill.
Bad bill. Discrimination is bad. Don't use religion as your shield for being a bigot.
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  #32609  
Old 03-25-2015, 11:52 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Bad bill. Discrimination is bad. Don't use religion as your shield for being a bigot.
This.
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  #32610  
Old 03-26-2015, 12:05 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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I'd like to see some of you guys n gals actually discuss that bill instead of saying good bill or bad bill. For some people it's actually not a cut and dry issue, it'd be nice to see each sides points put into well thought out posts.
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  #32611  
Old 03-26-2015, 12:10 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
I'd like to see some of you guys n gals actually discuss that bill instead of saying good bill or bad bill. For some people it's actually not a cut and dry issue, it'd be nice to see each sides points put into well thought out posts.
They are going to take Gencon away!(After 2020).
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  #32612  
Old 03-26-2015, 12:11 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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They are going to take Gencon away!(After 2020).
I saw that.
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  #32613  
Old 03-26-2015, 12:15 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I saw that.
How am I suppose to tell myself that one day I am going to get someone to make me a cosplay costume but never do it because I can't find anyone?
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  #32614  
Old 03-26-2015, 12:16 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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How am I suppose to tell myself that one day I am going to get someone to make me a cosplay costume but never do it because I can't find anyone?
I think you'll find a way.
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  #32615  
Old 03-26-2015, 02:34 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
I think you'll find a way.
I am indifferent to the bills existence. I don't know how it will work in practice. Calling people that support it a bigot though doesn't persuade me because they use that word for everything to get what they want.
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  #32616  
Old 03-26-2015, 02:40 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Good bill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Bad bill.
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Good bill.
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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Bad bill.
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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I am indifferent to the bills existence.
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  #32617  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:43 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Bad bill.
Good bill.
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  #32618  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:54 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
I'd like to see some of you guys n gals actually discuss that bill instead of saying good bill or bad bill. For some people it's actually not a cut and dry issue, it'd be nice to see each sides points put into well thought out posts.
The notion that companies should be able to refuse service based on their religious beliefs does not make sense to me.

It makes me think of when people wanted to refuse service based on race, except now people are hiding behind religion to cloak their bigotry.

I sincerely doubt people who want to refuse service based on orientation are avoiding mixed fabrics or stoning to death people for not being virgins before marriage and whatnot, or other biblical laws.

This isn't about religion, this is about hate and intolerance.
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  #32619  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:59 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
"What do you believe?" "Is your opinion the average for [insert ideological group]?" "Am I wrong to believe [insert belief] about you?" "About [insert ideological group]?"

You haven't seen the world. Take your head out of your ass, take the shit-colored glasses off your face, and look at it from the perspective of what you (and the majority of us) are. Unenlightened.
If you two ask nicely, I can show you the secret to enlightenment.

Yask and I got it.
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  #32620  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:10 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
The notion that companies should be able to refuse service based on their religious beliefs does not make sense to me.

It makes me think of when people wanted to refuse service based on race, except now people are hiding behind religion to cloak their bigotry.

I sincerely doubt people who want to refuse service based on orientation are avoiding mixed fabrics or stoning to death people for not being virgins before marriage and whatnot, or other biblical laws.

This isn't about religion, this is about hate and intolerance.
Ehhh, you have to know how people will argue against that though, it's really easy to argue against too.

According to Paul (which modern Christianity is Pauline Christianity) since Christ fulfilled the old laws ("until all has been fulfilled") the old laws such as mixed fabrics and stoning to death no longer apply.

Paul specifically gives certain things which do apply ontop of Christ's teachings and one of those things does in fact include homosexual sex.

Arguing using the Old Testament doesn't work because it's in the New Testament as well and the old covenant no longer applies.
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  #32621  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:18 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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There's about as many quotes to suggest the old testament still applies as there are that it doesn't.

And even then there's stuff from the new testament still, just not as much.
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  #32622  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:41 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Eh, I don't like the bill at all. It's hard to imagine it'll be used for any reason other than discriminating against LGBT communities.

Though if some business owners put bigotry before profits, that means more opportunities will go to those who actually behave like professionals.
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  #32623  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:43 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
There's about as many quotes to suggest the old testament still applies as there are that it doesn't.

And even then there's stuff from the new testament still, just not as much.
The Burden is on you to find the quotes from the new Testament.


As far as for the Old Testament Law, the official Church stance is that it isn't really a part of the "moral teachings" of the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Law of the Gospel "fulfills," refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection.21 In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the "kingdom of heaven." It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith - the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23

1969 The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the "Father who sees in secret," in contrast with the desire to "be seen by men."24 Its prayer is the Our Father.25

1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between "the two ways" and to put into practice the words of the Lord.26 It is summed up in the Golden Rule, "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets."27

The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the "new commandment" of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.28

1971 To the Lord's Sermon on the Mount it is fitting to add the moral catechesis of the apostolic teachings, such as Romans 12-15, 1 Corinthians 12-13, Colossians 3-4, Ephesians 4-5, etc. This doctrine hands on the Lord's teaching with the authority of the apostles, particularly in the presentation of the virtues that flow from faith in Christ and are animated by charity, the principal gift of the Holy Spirit. "Let charity be genuine. . . . Love one another with brotherly affection. . . . Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality."29 This catechesis also teaches us to deal with cases of conscience in the light of our relationship to Christ and to the Church.30

1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who "does not know what his master is doing" to that of a friend of Christ - "For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you" - or even to the status of son and heir.31

1973 Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. The traditional distinction between God's commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. The precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. The aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it.32

1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. The perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbor. The counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practiced in keeping with the vocation of each:

[God] does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.33
They even give abit of a list of where you can find the particular moral teachings which a Christian should follow ontop of the 10 commandments.

That's all I can really comment on what with the whole <Not a Christian> thing.
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  #32624  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:58 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Even if you're correct and the old testament still isn't active anymore, new testament based discrimination on sexual orientation has still got no business serving as a legal defense in modern law.

Refusing to serve people based on their sexual orientation is not defense of religion, it has no basis on their ability to go to church or anything else.



This site is far more hostile to Christianity and religion in general than I agree with but it has some pertinent information: http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/05/the...ament-cop-out/

Quote:
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be “just as inspired as the New Testament.” The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

“All Scripture – This properly refers to the Old Testament…it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired.” More importantly, as Catholic.com says (emphasis is ours): “Scripture — all of Scripture — is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.”

[Update I: A reader pointed out the following: Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in your previous articles. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament “an expression of the will of Christ”–it is Christ.]

Protestant Christianity, as seen on this popular Evangelical site, also agrees with this assessment:

Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

And here

Quote:
6) The fact of the matter is that all mainstream Christian groups affirm both the Old and New Testament as canon. The Church fought off any attempts to “throw away the Old Testament”. In the second century of Christianity, Marcion of Sinope rejected the Old Testament because of the violence, war atrocities, and genocide contained therein. He was denounced by the Church, and his views towards the Old Testament were officially damned as heresy. Tertullian, the Father of Western Christianity, issued a rebuttal against Marcion.

We read:

Marcionism. Marcionism owed its existence to Marcion, an individual who gained popularity in Rome in 140-144. His theology was influenced heavily by the Gnostics, and he denied the power of the God of the Old Testament. He promulgated the use of a limited form of the New Testament, including Luke’s Gospel and Acts, and many of the Pauline epistles, the former since Luke was a Gentile and the latter since he was sent to preach to the Gentiles. He found the God of the Old Testament contradictory and inhumane. The “orthodox” Christianity of the time rejected his argumentation, upheld the value of the Old Testament, and dutifully began the work of canonization of the Old and New Testaments. The specter of Marcion loomed large enough so as to merit refutation by Tertullian at the end of the second century; nevertheless, Marcion’s movement mostly died out or assimilated into other Gnostic groups.

Marcionism died out, thanks to the Church and its insistence of the Old Testament’s validity. The Catholic Encyclopedia calls the Marcionist sect “perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known.” Today, there are some modern-day believers, called New Testament Only Christians, who reject the Old Testament due to its inherent violence, war atrocities, and genocide. This group is a very small minority, a “heretical” group that is at odds with the main body of Christianity.

So, unless you happen to be a New Testament Only Christian, the “But That’s Just the Old Testament!” Defense simply doesn’t apply to you. The existence of the New Testament Only Christians, however, is actually indicative of just how violent the Bible is: it couldn’t be reconciled, so more than half of it had to be jettisoned.

And then on an unrelated new testament note

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Matthew+15:1-9

Quote:
‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’

The Bible is not useful as a code of behavior in modern social context.
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  #32625  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:08 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I am indifferent to the bills existence. I don't know how it will work in practice. Calling people that support it a bigot though doesn't persuade me because they use that word for everything to get what they want.
The bigotry argument is probably the weakest to me, even if they are just bigots, people have the right to be as long as they aren't violating someones rights, even if we see it as wrong.
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