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  #7801  
Old 02-27-2019, 03:28 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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First things first. Ignoring the shoddy retcons that even allow this sort of argument (as during the old days, the Horde was purely a product of orcish culture, strongly entrenched in their history, the orcs and the trolls became allies because they were "kindred spirits", and so on), even the latest rendition of lore does not make the Horde entirely a demon construct. Going back to Nelgarm's union of clans and the whole Goria disaster, Chronicle made a point that Kil'jaeden simply exploited the orcs' cultural memory in creating the Horde, rather than conjuring it out of nowhere. Moreover, Blackhand's decision to integrate the ogres was simply pragmatic, not influenced by any sort of demonic philosophy, and Doomhammer's even a less prudent example, as the entire point of the character (in modern lore) is the opposition to the influence of the demons. These examples were purely about circumstantial advantages, not about any sort of demonic thinking imprinted onto the characters. We do not call the Alliance an example of troll/demon thinking simply because the humans also united only thanks to their eternal threat/machinations.

However, that's not even as important, as even if it had been purely a purely demonic construct, we do not think of individual ideas when saying demon thinking, human thinking, and so on, we think of bases and entire sets. An exchange of ideas is a natural process, and a consequent adaptation is often beneficial, just as the aforementioned circumstantial adaptation. Adjusting to the everchanging environment or adapting beneficial ideas from other cultures won’t transform orcish thinking into human or demon thinking, unless something absolutely fundamental changes. And uniting both themselves and with other groups, be it because of cultural similarity or pragmatic reasons, is hardly a fundamental change. Germanics did not abandon their spiritual believes nor did they stop being a warrior culture when their smaller tribes begun confederating and even accepting people of different ethnic background in the face of the everchanging world.

To make it even more simplistic, it’s not about Thrall shunning any sort of ideas that would not have appeared on Draenor before the rise of the Horde, it’s about Thrall as a leader who understands the nature of his people and the basis of their thinking, accepting it and guiding it instead of suppressing it. That’s not mutually exclusive with also understanding the nature of the world around them and adapting to it, as well as adapting any sort of ideas that might be beneficial even if they are not of orcish origin, something a shrewd leader should naturally do.
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  #7802  
Old 02-27-2019, 03:50 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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We saw what was pure "orc thinking" in Garrosh and the Iron Horde.

Sure, they can band together, but always to beat a foe, and not always one that was threatening them.
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  #7803  
Old 02-27-2019, 05:38 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Having Orcs become "noble spirits" kills the whole fantasy of having Orcs in your RPG.

One of the reasons why GW2 feels bland race-wise. They have been morally evolving and progressing and that doesn't please the people who like savagery in their fantasy.
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  #7804  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Garrosh (as of Mists) and the Iron Horde were specifically written as the villains of the story, yet even so, their villainy was not as much a direct product of orcish thinking but Garrosh' unbalanced psyché (a product of shoddy writing nonetheless) and his manipulations (the visions of time).

We can't just take one character or event and pin point it as representing the entirety of the orcs. Durotan, Garad, older Saurfang represent "pure orcish thinking" as much as Garrosh. We have to look at what they have in common, in this case warrior culture and tribalistic ties to the land, to see what actually represents it. And a warrior culture does not have to be hyper-aggressive, it can be contained and reserved, either as an established part of the culture or through guidance. Guidance, not suppression, as that’d end with a counter-reaction and further escalation (which, with current writing, the entire Garrosh endeavor would seem as an example, even if probably not intended by Blizzard in its entirety). Something apparently present in Reign of Chaos, a thing conceded in a previous post of mine, as Thrall seemingly accepted the warrior culture of the orcs there as opposed to World of Warcraft, guiding it instead of suppressing it, using the tauren, a clear example of a self-reserved warrior culture, as a further symbol in doing so.
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  #7805  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:32 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Have you seen this?


It's an adaptation of Reign of Chaos using the original voice acting. Animations is superb, and the author has a lot of talent, caring a lot about small details to enhance the narrative, as well as changing the order of the events so different campaigns weave together as one. I was very impressed by it.

Anyway, at 21:42 there's a scene in which an orc quietly saves a beaten human soldier's. It doesn't make the orcs less savage, only honorbound. The way it's done is quite badass, without the orc stopping to beg to the conscience of his soldier. He just stops the blow like a boss and the other orc is all "ok, I won't do it. You're the boss", no need for apologies.

I think this is what people expect the Horde to be.
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  #7806  
Old 02-27-2019, 08:36 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Garrosh (as of Mists) and the Iron Horde were specifically written as the villains of the story, yet even so, their villainy was not as much a direct product of orcish thinking but Garrosh' unbalanced psyché (a product of shoddy writing nonetheless) and his manipulations (the visions of time).

We can't just take one character or event and pin point it as representing the entirety of the orcs. Durotan, Garad, older Saurfang represent "pure orcish thinking" as much as Garrosh. We have to look at what they have in common, in this case warrior culture and tribalistic ties to the land, to see what actually represents it. And a warrior culture does not have to be hyper-aggressive, it can be contained and reserved, either as an established part of the culture or through guidance. Guidance, not suppression, as that’d end with a counter-reaction and further escalation (which, with current writing, the entire Garrosh endeavor would seem as an example, even if probably not intended by Blizzard in its entirety). Something apparently present in Reign of Chaos, a thing conceded in a previous post of mine, as Thrall seemingly accepted the warrior culture of the orcs there as opposed to World of Warcraft, guiding it instead of suppressing it, using the tauren, a clear example of a self-reserved warrior culture, as a further symbol in doing so.
Another problem: turning Orcs into Tauren.

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I think this is what people expect the Horde to be.
Muddy waters.

You could have that discussion for years without reaching a conclusion.

Oh wait--
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  #7807  
Old 02-28-2019, 05:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Another problem: turning Orcs into Tauren.
Looking at another group as a point of reference and guidance does not mean they have to necessarily become their copies in thinking and habits. And being somewhat similar is not a problem with this particular duo, in my opinion.
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  #7808  
Old 02-28-2019, 05:45 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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It's kinda funny to see, during the Mag'har Questline, how the Anachronos is actually lamenting Garrosh's fate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Echo_of_Ga...scream_(quest)

Quote:
Anachronos says: Garrosh Hellscream... Such a pity how things turned out.
Anachronos says: In countless potential timelines, he was seen as a great hero of his people. Some called him the Horde's greatest warchief.
Anachronos says: What you saw here was one of his worst possible incarnations. A waste.

Last edited by Vineyard; 02-28-2019 at 06:26 AM..
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  #7809  
Old 02-28-2019, 08:57 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Vineyard View Post
It's kinda funny to see, during the Mag'har Questline, how the Anachronos is actually lamenting Garrosh's fate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Echo_of_Ga...scream_(quest)
I know. I kinda have to wonder what could have gone differently. Was it Cairne’s challenge coupled with Magatha’s betrayal, creating a rift between Garrosh and the more noble elements of the Horde? Was he made War Chief too soon? Or was it based on his own decisions? Was it Theramore? Was it Thrall? When did he diverge from the path that led to becoming the greatest War Chief ever?
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  #7810  
Old 02-28-2019, 10:16 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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He barely knew the Horde when he became warchief.
Give him 10 years to understand all the races and the Alliance and he might have had a chance.
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  #7811  
Old 02-28-2019, 11:57 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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He barely knew the Horde when he became warchief.
Give him 10 years to understand all the races and the Alliance and he might have had a chance.
I tend to agree, but I don’t necessarily see how that could possibly be a possibility that the Bronze Flight would be aware of, unless most of the possible timeways were ones where the Cataclysm didn’t happen, or where Thrall wasn’t the one who saved the world.
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  #7812  
Old 02-28-2019, 12:29 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
I tend to agree, but I don’t necessarily see how that could possibly be a possibility that the Bronze Flight would be aware of, unless most of the possible timeways were ones where the Cataclysm didn’t happen, or where Thrall wasn’t the one who saved the world.
Well, it was their role to know about all of the possible timeways to effectively prevent them intruding upon the true one.

Technically despite losing much of their power at the end of Cataclysm, the Bronzes are uniquely positioned to still retain a ton of knowledge of the true timeline and the possible false timelines they were tasked with keeping apart from it, as they used to be essentially immortal and routinely traveling among myriad points in time across multiple timeways.

In fact when one thinks about it, logically they should be the one Dragonflight that still has their powers in a way, since even if their contemporary selves were lessened, there should still be countless versions of themselves from before who hadn't been depowered yet still policing the timeways. At any point in time there should remain the possibility of Bronze dragons from the past popping up who still retain their powers over time, since they were always traveling between past, present and future as part of their jobs.

In that vein, it's hard to say if we as players would even be able to tell if a particular Bronze dragon we meet is the modern-day one whose powers are severely diminished, or if it's a fully empowered version of that dragon from the past who's only pretending to be his modern self while visiting Azeroth in the present as part of preserving the timeways.
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  #7813  
Old 02-28-2019, 02:44 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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And this might somehow tie in to the creation of the Infinite Dragonflight, and Nozdormu's fall. I think it's pretty damn awesome that this is a thing that will still happen.
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  #7814  
Old 02-28-2019, 04:47 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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And this might somehow tie in to the creation of the Infinite Dragonflight, and Nozdormu's fall. I think it's pretty damn awesome that this is a thing that will still happen.
I kinda wonder if they’re setting Garrosh up to have been screwed over by fate. I mean what are the odds that of all the potential outcomes of his reign, we’d get the worst one. Is it possible that the Cataclysm was a set up to put Garrosh in power too early? We know the Infinite Flight put a lot of effort to lead us to the End Times, and that Deathwing has some Infinite help for whatever reason. Factor that in with the Infinite Dragonflight’s proclivity toward messing with Horde History and the Bronze assistance in bringing us Mag’har Orcs...... there’s something weird going on here.

Then again the strings of fate have been played with like a kitten’s ball of yarn. First we borrowed a relic of the past to defeat Deathwing, then we get an Alternate Universe/divergent Timeway invasion, where the Echo/Alternate version of a War Criminal who died decades ago is brought in to kick off a rather ill fated Burning Legion invasion, the. Illidan defies his destiny, leading to the world getting stabbed. Who knows how fate was supposed to go anymore?
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  #7815  
Old 02-28-2019, 06:47 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
I kinda wonder if they’re setting Garrosh up to have been screwed over by fate. I mean what are the odds that of all the potential outcomes of his reign, we’d get the worst one. Is it possible that the Cataclysm was a set up to put Garrosh in power too early? We know the Infinite Flight put a lot of effort to lead us to the End Times, and that Deathwing has some Infinite help for whatever reason. Factor that in with the Infinite Dragonflight’s proclivity toward messing with Horde History and the Bronze assistance in bringing us Mag’har Orcs...... there’s something weird going on here.

Then again the strings of fate have been played with like a kitten’s ball of yarn. First we borrowed a relic of the past to defeat Deathwing, then we get an Alternate Universe/divergent Timeway invasion, where the Echo/Alternate version of a War Criminal who died decades ago is brought in to kick off a rather ill fated Burning Legion invasion, the. Illidan defies his destiny, leading to the world getting stabbed. Who knows how fate was supposed to go anymore?
Well, keep in mind that the "best" outcome for Garrosh doesn't necessarily mean the best for Azeroth. A reality where thing work out with a heroic and beloved Warchief Hellscream leading the Horde could very well be doomed by default due to a billion-billion resulting changes that spiral into the Burning Legion successfully conquering Azeroth by another means.
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  #7816  
Old 03-01-2019, 04:02 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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When I think about what went wrong with Garrosh, I lately think about what went wrong with Aedelas Blackmoore.

Both have a similar background, that they grew up with shame about their father.

Blackmoore has hold back being a great leader in our timeline by being a dickish drunk. AU Blackmoore on the other hand....

As for Garrosh's main weakness, it was actually greatly explained by Christie Golden.

Quote:
Garrosh's personality in game and out has done a lot of shifting back and forth. We see him get a lot darker in Tides. How did you go about developing his character?

"I think Garrosh has, at his core, a weak personality. He was very hostile about his father and ashamed of his father, and it took Thrall to say, "Hey, look, you know your dad did some pretty amazing things despite everything." He had to get that validation externally. He also had to prove himself in battle externally. And now he is surrounding himself with some very bad and dangerous advisors, externally.

Because I think that at the core, he doesn't really know. He wants to do well. He wants to preserve the orcs and their pride and their history. But I think he is actually a rather malleable person whose opinions can change. He doesn't have a strong core.

I think the main difference -- Jaina has a very strong core. And when adversity and disaster and personal torment rip her down to nothing but that core, that core is still intact. It's hurt, but it's intact. And Garrosh doesn't really have a strong core. So what he believes kind of changes depending on what the situation is and who's talking. And I think that does not a good strong leader make."
Lately I wonder if all that malice wouldn't have happend, if Garrosh got never infected by the Red Pox, when he was younger, and been able to join up with his dad...
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  #7817  
Old 03-01-2019, 04:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Garrosh 'weak core' yet didn't get any influence from Thrall or any good people.

Golden's explanation is bullshit.

It doesn't take into account his life in Outland, Geyah's influence, etc...

Garrosh is a plot device to make the Horde the villain cause they couldn't do it with thrall in charge and it sucks.
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  #7818  
Old 03-02-2019, 02:06 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
I tend to agree, but I don’t necessarily see how that could possibly be a possibility that the Bronze Flight would be aware of, unless most of the possible timeways were ones where the Cataclysm didn’t happen, or where Thrall wasn’t the one who saved the world.
Or in most timelines Thrall picks Vol'Jin as his successor and Garrosh succeeds Vol'Jin in Legion.
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  #7819  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:13 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Hmmmmmmmmm weak personality and easily influenced....... such as if the Light were introduced to his people he might turncoat and become Lightbound? I’ve got a theory percolating, where Exarch Hellscream is in fact Garrosh, and not the non-existent AU Garrosh either. I’m wondering if he’s not our Garrosh, resurrected by Yrel and a born again Naaru worshipper. It would be an unexpected direction to take his character, and it would be a glorious direction to take Jaina. I’m reasonably sure Blizz is aware that they botched his character arc, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled another Illidan.
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:29 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Hmmmmmmmmm weak personality and easily influenced....... such as if the Light were introduced to his people he might turncoat and become Lightbound? I’ve got a theory percolating, where Exarch Hellscream is in fact Garrosh, and not the non-existent AU Garrosh either. I’m wondering if he’s not our Garrosh, resurrected by Yrel and a born again Naaru worshipper. It would be an unexpected direction to take his character, and it would be a glorious direction to take Jaina. I’m reasonably sure Blizz is aware that they botched his character arc, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled another Illidan.
God please no let him rest.
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  #7821  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:33 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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God please no let him rest.
We both know Blizzard is capable of it. I don’t think it would necessarily be the best thing for Garrosh, but it might stir things up for other characters.
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  #7822  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:05 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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We both know Blizzard is capable of it. I don’t think it would necessarily be the best thing for Garrosh, but it might stir things up for other characters.
No, it's an incredibly bad idea they already spent multiple expacs dealing with him it's time to move on to exploring those reactions and growth.
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  #7823  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:53 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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No, it's an incredibly bad idea they already spent multiple expacs dealing with him it's time to move on to exploring those reactions and growth.
Either way, this isn’t a proposal. It’s an educated guess on what Blizz is already doing. Whether either of us approves of the idea isn’t terribly important. The question is whether or not it’s the sort of story Blizz is willing to tell, especially with Golden directly on the payroll.
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  #7824  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:13 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
weak personality and easily influenced......
I've heard this about Garrosh, but what does it mean he had a weak personality? He seemed rather forceful and determined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
I’ve got a theory percolating, where Exarch Hellscream is in fact Garrosh, and not the non-existent AU Garrosh either. I’m wondering if he’s not our Garrosh, resurrected by Yrel and a born again Naaru worshipper. It would be an unexpected direction to take his character, and it would be a glorious direction to take Jaina. I’m reasonably sure Blizz is aware that they botched his character arc, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled another Illidan.
I think it's possible, if the devs regretted how they ruined his character and wanted to make another attempt. I always felt he was wasted.
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  #7825  
Old 03-02-2019, 09:07 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I've heard this about Garrosh, but what does it mean he had a weak personality? He seemed rather forceful and determined.
Presumably it means he was extremely susceptible to being swayed by ideas that fed into his own preconceptions and rigidly opposed to those that didn't. So Garrosh was dangerously receptive to individuals like Malkorok who sold their methods and ideas as endorsements of his own, while at the same time being reflexively dismissive of anything people like Cairne, Vol'jin or Baine had to say that didn't reinforce what he already believed.

He was arguably like Arthas in those regards. Easily goaded. Poorly suited to dealing with frustration. Unstable temperament in the face of defeat. Neither of them responded well to conflicting ideas and opinions, either ignoring, dismissing or punishing such out of hand. Conversely, both of them ate it up far too readily whenever someone reaffirmed their preconceptions. Even when that meant (in Arthas' case) basically ignoring allies and being led around by enemies.
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