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Old 05-16-2018, 09:34 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It's kinda ironic, that the Nelves seemingly now have lost their home similar to what happend to the Gilneans.

Teldrassil was one of their most major Post Third War settlements, considering how strongly Ashenvale Forest, their former main living ground got devestated during it.
The state of the devastation is quite unclear. For starters, Alliance questing followed Horde questing in Cataclysm, and both sides demonstrate that the Horde fails to get control of the zone. The Horde's logistical position is terrible, and by 5.3, Night Elves are moving caravans into the dry hills: a location that they can only really reach by way of the Warsong-controlled Mor'shan Rampart. These matters don't line up with the idea of a Horde steamroll or even victory in Cata/MoP - though again, it's hard for hard canon to overcome the framing.

We also know from the excerpt we have so far from the Brooks novella that much of the damage that was there was quickly restored.

In regard to the Horde offensive, thus far it doesn't appear to be one designed to hold territory. It was a sudden surprise attack that went in a straight line. The continued presence of a substantial Night Elven force in Ashenvale and Darkshore borne out by the mission tables even further outlines this. One of these tables suggests that they are even strong enough to mount attacks on Orgrimmar.

In regards to other territories, Azuremyst isle is a stone's throw away. So is Moonglade, so is Hyjal. Any of the three would be far more suitable locations for a refugee population.

The decision to put refugees in Stormwind then? I only have metagame justifications for that: further movement towards the one hub, one theme, one Alliance model - the one that has stagnated the faction and demolished interesting theming because it would have been too much of a hassle for the devs to consider making something interesting. It is the exact thing I was worried about from day one, and regardless of the effort still going on in Northern Kalimdor, Blizzard seems dead set on this horrendous idea.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
In regards to other territories, Azuremyst isle is a stone's throw away. So is Moonglade, so is Hyjal. Any of the three would be far more suitable locations for a refugee population.

The decision to put refugees in Stormwind then? I only have metagame justifications for that: further movement towards the one hub, one theme, one Alliance model - the one that has stagnated the faction and demolished interesting theming because it would have been too much of a hassle for the devs to consider making something interesting. It is the exact thing I was worried about from day one, and regardless of the effort still going on in Northern Kalimdor, Blizzard seems dead set on this horrendous idea.
The only reason the refuges are in Stormwind are gameplay issues. Updating Exodar would be almost pointless since no one goes there, so people wouldn't "feel" the effect of the war.

it makes no sense to realocate the population accross the ocean. It's a logistical nightmare and too many people would die on the crossing. You can't bring food for everyone in those ships.

The most logical answer is that the population got scattered. A portion would go Stormwind, many would go to Myst Isles, a lot would go Ashenvalle. But we only see the Stormwind ones for gameplay reasons.

As the Horde strengthens its position in Kalimdor, thought, it would make sense that the civilians would be sent to Eastern Kingdoms, while military would keep guerrila-fighting the Horde in Ashenvale and Darkshore.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:51 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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The only reason the refuges are in Stormwind are gameplay issues. Updating Exodar would be almost pointless since no one goes there, so people wouldn't "feel" the effect of the war.

it makes no sense to realocate the population accross the ocean. It's a logistical nightmare and too many people would die on the crossing. You can't bring food for everyone in those ships.

The most logical answer is that the population got scattered. A portion would go Stormwind, many would go to Myst Isles, a lot would go Ashenvalle. But we only see the Stormwind ones for gameplay reasons.

As the Horde strengthens its position in Kalimdor, thought, it would make sense that the civilians would be sent to Eastern Kingdoms, while military would keep guerrila-fighting the Horde in Ashenvale and Darkshore.
On your latter paragraph, the idea of the Alliance in Kalimdor thinking that it's incapable of defending civilian settlements there is a) contradicted by the lack of Draenei who, under that theory, should also be evacuating the continent, and b) the sort of defeatism on the part of the Night Elves that will get nothing but scorn from me.

Addressing the resource issue, if Blizzard doesn't feel that it's worthwhile to expend resources to retain or attract night elf fans to the game, then why is it worthwhile for said fans to expend resources on Blizzard's products? That is the ultimate question every video game must answer: "why should the audience pay for my game?"

It seems that their answer to broad segments of that audience, and not just the one I go to bat for and not just on this issue is "you shouldn't, go away, we don't like money".

Edit: One other thing on the resource issue, they didn't have to program the refugees in anywhere. They could have saved the resources they spent on this by sticking with the implication that they were moved to Azuremyst.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:14 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
On your latter paragraph, the idea of the Alliance in Kalimdor thinking that it's incapable of defending civilian settlements there is a) contradicted by the lack of Draenei who, under that theory, should also be evacuating the continent, and b) the sort of defeatism on the part of the Night Elves that will get nothing but scorn from me.

Addressing the resource issue, if Blizzard doesn't feel that it's worthwhile to expend resources to retain or attract night elf fans to the game, then why is it worthwhile for said fans to expend resources on Blizzard's products? That is the ultimate question every video game must answer: "why should the audience pay for my game?"

It seems that their answer to broad segments of that audience, and not just the one I go to bat for and not just on this issue is "you shouldn't, go away, we don't like money".

Edit: One other thing on the resource issue, they didn't have to program the refugees in anywhere. They could have saved the resources they spent on this by sticking with the implication that they were moved to Azuremyst.
i'm not trying to justify Blizzard's decisions, only to understand their line of thought. If it was up to me, I'd do something else entirely.

(Including following throught and killing Malfurion).
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:16 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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I really like how the dialogue for Kul Tiran druids and Umbric is actually different if your a druid or void elf. It's a nice touch I was worried we wouldn't see anymore with class specific content being restricted to Legion.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:22 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I really like how the dialogue for Kul Tiran druids and Umbric is actually different if your a druid or void elf. It's a nice touch I was worried we wouldn't see anymore with class specific content being restricted to Legion.
Agree. Class/race-specific dialogue like that does not consume a lot of resources, unlike quests/artifacts/halls/et cetera. So, I really hope Blizzard starts using it a lot more.

It's funny, as I leveled my void elf alt to get the armor, I spent time in other expansion's content. Pandaria was really amazing with how much gossip text there was. The lore monuments to collect, NPCs that you could talk to, entire villages that were there just because they looked cool, books and poetry scattered around the settlements. MoP was a marvellous experience, lorewise, and no other expansion came nowhere near it in quality of little details.

But TBC also had amazing a few settlements. While the big important lore was very messy back then, the NPCs had interesting gossip text telling you tidbits about the places, like the Honor Hold guy that considered Outland his home since he was born there, or the high elves in Allerian Stronghold talking about their feelings about the blood elves.

WoW needs to get back to using such small details to enrich the experience.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:26 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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i'm not trying to justify Blizzard's decisions, only to understand their line of thought. If it was up to me, I'd do something else entirely.

(Including following throught and killing Malfurion).
Tyrande too, while she's there. The Night Elves can no longer tolerate failure - it's a cancer that needs to be cut out.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:36 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Tyrande too, while she's there. The Night Elves can no longer tolerate failure - it's a cancer that needs to be cut out.
I'd spare Tyrande and redeem her, thought.
I can make up for her past mistakes. But I can't really "fix" Malfurion without fundamentally changing who he is, so it's better to off the character. I'd give him a heroic sacrifice as a send off, thought.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:51 AM
Temo Temo is offline

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http://www.wowhead.com/news=284452/b...eview-spoilers

...aaaand there you have it. Calia gets enough development to make sure Sylvanas dies this expansion, and gets replaced with her.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:54 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I'd spare Tyrande and redeem her, thought.
I can make up for her past mistakes. But I can't really "fix" Malfurion without fundamentally changing who he is, so it's better to off the character. I'd give him a heroic sacrifice as a send off, thought.
She can't be saved. She is way too far gone. Unfortunately the same may be true for Night Elves if the Teldrassil scenario fits the contours of what we've seen so far, but until we announce the time of death, I say it must be done to save the patient.

Tyrande has no business being the leader. She's annoying, she's incompetent, and she's holding things back.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:56 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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the concept of a "holy undead" is the stupidest thing I've read in my fucking life
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:08 AM
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http://www.wowhead.com/news=284452/b...eview-spoilers

...aaaand there you have it. Calia gets enough development to make sure Sylvanas dies this expansion, and gets replaced with her.
I advise posting it in the proper book thread:

http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=221427

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the concept of a "holy undead" is the stupidest thing I've read in my fucking life
It depends where it goes. I've seen it used before on other settings. It's not real undead, but some kind of immortal state (I remember it being called "undying" in a D&D setting, in opposition to "undead").

With the new "Light/Void" dichotomy of Warcraft, a Light-empowered "undying" character could have some important role.

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She can't be saved. She is way too far gone. Unfortunately the same may be true for Night Elves if the Teldrassil scenario fits the contours of what we've seen so far, but until we announce the time of death, I say it must be done to save the patient.

Tyrande has no business being the leader. She's annoying, she's incompetent, and she's holding things back.
She can be fixed. But I wouldn't keep her as a leader. Instead, she would take a background role as spiritual leader, and leave kaldorei society to be governed by others.

Her redemption would start with her realising she led her people wrong and stepping down leadership in order to seek mourn her husband and her home, and seek spiritual guidance in those troubling times.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:11 AM
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Well, we already had a Holy Dreadlord.....
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:11 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I still despise this villanizing of the Light. A concept that's existed since the first fucking game. But now we have to go down the "fine people on many sides" route and have it be secretly evil too? Come the fuck on.

Not everything has to be morally grey.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:13 AM
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Thanks! Now the kul tiran druids make sense.

And void elf lore got something. There's still a ton of unanswered questions, but at least we get some understanding of their outlook on the Alliance, and the timeline of Umbric's exile starts to be fleshed out.

This shows how just a little gossip dialogue can improve lore. We shouldn't have had to wait 3 months (or 6 months for those who won't read the spoilers) just to get basic information about a race.

---------------------------------

Now, this text, (probably) from Rexxar, is hypocrisy in its purest form:



"Jaina killed her father to spare the Horde. But she can't forgive the Horde just because we bombed her city. I can't forgive her because she killed too many! It does not matter that we started this new war, I'll fight to the death against the Alliance!"
according to umbric the void elves preferred to leave silvermoon voluntarily instead of being expelled, in order to continue practicing the void
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:17 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Well, we already had a Holy Dreadlord.....
Yes but Lothraxion was already a Dreadlord BEFORE. He was purified by the Light and became how he was.

This new "method" is literally raising someone as Forsaken using the LIGHT, which contradicts everything we know about the process - and makes no sense at all, much like this expansion
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:28 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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She can be fixed. But I wouldn't keep her as a leader. Instead, she would take a background role as spiritual leader, and leave kaldorei society to be governed by others.

Her redemption would start with her realising she led her people wrong and stepping down leadership in order to seek mourn her husband and her home, and seek spiritual guidance in those troubling times.
So we would be consigning the Elunarian religion by way of it's high priestess to expressions of sorrow and loss for no other reason than to keep a Warcraft III character around? I don't see how moving from "Trust in my command" to 24/7 lament is in any way a good move for the priestesses of Elune or the Night Elves in general. I want them fighting tooth and nail in Kalimdor, not cowering and sobbing in Stormwind.

There is no room left for failures, they can no longer be tolerated.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:29 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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according to umbric the void elves preferred to leave silvermoon voluntarily instead of being expelled, in order to continue practicing the void
Based on Rommath's quote in the Nightborne quest, I think it was more of a "you can't fire me, I quit!" situation than Umbric graciously leaving voluntarily.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:31 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Addressing the resource issue, if Blizzard doesn't feel that it's worthwhile to expend resources to retain or attract night elf fans to the game, then why is it worthwhile for said fans to expend resources on Blizzard's products? That is the ultimate question every video game must answer: "why should the audience pay for my game?"

It seems that their answer to broad segments of that audience, and not just the one I go to bat for and not just on this issue is "you shouldn't, go away, we don't like money".
You are wrong.

And the reason you are wrong is because your entire way of thinking is just plain wrong.

It's not only wrong, it's bad. It's ugly. It's dysfunctional. Completely detached from reality.

Blizzard has it right: they see their audience, their whole playerbase, as being players. Not human players, not blood elf players, not orc players, not windalkwer monk players, not marksmanship hunter players.

What does that mean?

Blizzard makes content so that someone who plays on both factions would get to understand 100% of the story.

Blizzard makes content so in the case arms warrior aren't performing well enough, the player may feel comfortable in switching over to fury warrior, or even windwalker monk.

They design a game in its entirety.

The kind of player who is solely an undead, orc, blood elf, night elf, human or even gnome player is within the minority. A very small minority.

The majority of WoW players does dungeons, barely touches raids and has a wide array of alts, from several different races and classes.

The most enthusiastic WoW players do mythic+ dungeons and heroic and above raids. They often have a small selection of alts within which they are comfortable to switch as their main character as class balance swings around.

These are the two kinds of player Blizzard is designing the game for.

And yet, you speak as if people who exclusively play one race are some kind of majority and should have content specially designed for them, even if it betrays all logic by doing so. Case in point: sentinels in Stormwind. If there weren't any sentinels with the night elves there, people would call Blizzard stupid and say it wouldn't make sense. People don't expect the Sentinels to be fighting in Ashenvale instead of being over there in Stormwind because they don't see NPCs as living bodies of a story.

They can't really die, so they don't have to fight. By not having to fight, their presence stops meaning protection, and starts meaning representation. In that case, they're there to represent the night elven identity.

People would freak out if the night elves didn't have in Stormwind a vital representative of their identity (the Sentinels).

But go on, keep whining.

I have said it a few times and I'll say it again: it would be marvelous to watch the fan meltdown if the Scourging of Quel'thalas had happened in a MMO instead.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:32 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Careful Krainz, don't cut yourself on all that edge
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:52 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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@ Krainz,

Your entire body of criticism was addressed several months ago in a thread about the Night Elf experience up in the lore section. It's the one that began with a discussion on Scott Rigby's research and the Mimesis effect. To date, I have yet to see you address those points.

Until you do, my only response to you is this: if you are ignoring role selection in an RPG, I'm not sure what value your commentary on one actually has.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:02 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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You are wrong.

And the reason you are wrong is because your entire way of thinking is just plain wrong.

It's not only wrong, it's bad. It's ugly. It's dysfunctional. Completely detached from reality.

Blizzard has it right: they see their audience, their whole playerbase, as being players. Not human players, not blood elf players, not orc players, not windalkwer monk players, not marksmanship hunter players.

What does that mean?

Blizzard makes content so that someone who plays on both factions would get to understand 100% of the story.

Blizzard makes content so in the case arms warrior aren't performing well enough, the player may feel comfortable in switching over to fury warrior, or even windwalker monk.

They design a game in its entirety.

The kind of player who is solely an undead, orc, blood elf, night elf, human or even gnome player is within the minority. A very small minority.

The majority of WoW players does dungeons, barely touches raids and has a wide array of alts, from several different races and classes.

The most enthusiastic WoW players do mythic+ dungeons and heroic and above raids. They often have a small selection of alts within which they are comfortable to switch as their main character as class balance swings around.

These are the two kinds of player Blizzard is designing the game for.

And yet, you speak as if people who exclusively play one race are some kind of majority and should have content specially designed for them, even if it betrays all logic by doing so. Case in point: sentinels in Stormwind. If there weren't any sentinels with the night elves there, people would call Blizzard stupid and say it wouldn't make sense. People don't expect the Sentinels to be fighting in Ashenvale instead of being over there in Stormwind because they don't see NPCs as living bodies of a story.

They can't really die, so they don't have to fight. By not having to fight, their presence stops meaning protection, and starts meaning representation. In that case, they're there to represent the night elven identity.

People would freak out if the night elves didn't have in Stormwind a vital representative of their identity (the Sentinels).

But go on, keep whining.

I have said it a few times and I'll say it again: it would be marvelous to watch the fan meltdown if the Scourging of Quel'thalas had happened in a MMO instead.
While I hardly agree with Kyalin, I also can't agree with you. You are all the time disregarding groups of players because they'd be a "minority" and shouldn't be listened to.

It's as if it was impossible to send small nods and rewards to these groups, as if Blizzard should only think about the "majority".

The thing is, the "majority" does not exist. The player base is made up of lots of minorities, each enthralled to the game because of its own personal reasons. The more Blizzard ignores these minorities, the people end up losing interest in the game.

The game is not in its best shape. On the contrary, it lost a lot of steam after the trainwrecks that were Cataclysm and WoD. I see Cataclysm as an honest mistake: Blizzard tried to do something big and ended up not able to deliver, while WoD was a mistake from its very concept.

Some of Blizzard's gimmicks may bring back or keep people in the game for a while, but they hurt the franchise in the long run.

Giving night elves some love won't just appease night elf fans. It will bring goodwill to other players that follow lore as a whole, or are interested in a good story.

All these players that go for raids, rated PvP or M+ dungeons will eventually get older and have less time to play. Or will move on to other online competition games. People who like the lore will keep following it for years to come, like I did. It's these people that buy novels, Chronicle lore books and so on. It's these people that will move on to the next game if WoW ends and the franchise continues in a new form.

Why was WotLK the best moment for WoW? In part, because it was until then that it was still riding on the Warcraft 3 nostalgia. Once Illidan and LK were dead, the lore had to move into new territory.

To keep disrespecting this fanbase composed of "minorities" is a grave mistake whose consequences may not be felt right now, but you can be sure they'll come in the long run.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:12 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Deicide's response belongs on a plaque. Very well said.

The only thing I would add is that, per the Mimesis effect, even someone who doesn't pay attention to their role is influenced by it. The research indicated changes in behavior as a result of being assigned a role conforming to the assigned role, and those changes were even stronger when the player selected that role for themselves. I don't want to overstate the effect of course, but I do want to underline that it exists.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:34 PM
kobebyarlant kobebyarlant is offline

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Forsaken desperately need some shift in their society. When a group calling itself the Death Knights on the Ebon Blade, being lead by a literal Lich King btw, is more virtuous and has less of a cult of personality than your faction of raised peasants something is seriously wrong.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:48 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Warcraft is a brand. There are people who like Warcraft because it is Warcraft. These people will buy a whole host of Warcraft related stuff because they are loyal to the brand or like the story surrounding the universe. If one were to ruin the universe and it became completely nonsensical some of these people may be persuaded to just not invest into it anymore. Then there other people. There are other people who play it because they like an MMO and certain components of WoW. If something better were to come around they very well may dump WoW. A similiar thing can be said for Diablo. There are people who like Diablo because it is Diablo. There are also people who like the game design and are more indifferent to the universe. If another game were to pop up (PoE?) they would simply go to whichever game offers a better experience.

Ultimately it's a balancing act between that loyal fan base who will buy stuff because they care about the universe and people who play the game for the genre.
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alliance whining, azeroth literally dying, battle for azeroth, for the whored, mop 2.0 sucks, mop sucks, more like cata 2.0 sucks, quilboar bias, world of warcraft

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