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  #76  
Old 12-17-2018, 03:05 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Er... is there really that much of a difference?
Not that much from a narrative standpoint (although in general, their anti-Arcane stances established in the manual of Reign of Chaos went largerly unitilized when dealing with the humans and more importantly the blood elves), but there were some subtle changes to their background lore. Notably, the Reign of Chaos era Kaldorei were explicitly said in absolute terms to be all druids (all the men) or warriors (all the women), leaving no room for civilian populations and villages seen in The Frozen Throne, a thing that ultimately brought the night elves a step closer to the archetypal Alliance races from their original inception.
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  #77  
Old 12-17-2018, 03:27 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Eh, I can see them prioritizing different things in a foreign environment where they're hunting Illidan surrounded by undead.

The civilian thing... eh... it's such a small part of the campaign, and I can't imagine they didn't have SOME sort of civilian population. I mean they could all be warrior fisherwomen who need the boats.

I sort of wish at some point they had gone more into how the upbringing and rearing of night elven children went. Since they're immortal they'd probably have to have strict population controls, and no one ever mentions "parents" so I always assumed Night Elven children were raised by the community.
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  #78  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:20 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Not that much from a narrative standpoint (although in general, their anti-Arcane stances established in the manual of Reign of Chaos went largerly unitilized when dealing with the humans and more importantly the blood elves), but there were some subtle changes to their background lore. Notably, the Reign of Chaos era Kaldorei were explicitly said in absolute terms to be all druids (all the men) or warriors (all the women), leaving no room for civilian populations and villages seen in The Frozen Throne, a thing that ultimately brought the night elves a step closer to the archetypal Alliance races from their original inception.
I don't mean to challenge you. It is not unlikely that I simply forgot or didn't pay enough attention, but I can't recall it being explicitly stated that there were no night elf civilians in RoC. Would it be possible for you to state your source?
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  #79  
Old 12-18-2018, 02:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The Art of Warcraft's lore section was very absolute in its wording that the men are the druids and the women are the warriors, leaving little space for anything else. Of course, like Aldrius alluded to, one could argue that warriors could be civilians, but that sort of logic is not really appliable for pre-modern warrior cultures which did not operate on the civilian-professional divide, but simply combatants (warrriors) vs. non-combatants.

Essentially, when I say that the night elves in Reign of Chaos had no civilian population, I mean they had no non-combatant population, as opposed to their later depictions and as opposed to the archetypal Alliance races (you could see plenty non-combatants for the humans and the high elves in Reign of Chaos).



On a slightly unrelated note, it was also the Art of Warcraft that explained Archimonde's ultimate goals during the Third War (and disloyalty towards Sargeras' own designs), only alluded to in the manual, something no longer even possible to be canon sadly.



There was also this nice artwork I do not remember seeing much elsewhere.

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  #80  
Old 12-18-2018, 02:45 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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You have a copy of Art of Warcraft? Any other neat tidbits that could be reframe debate? Are Demon Hunters listed as an exception to the "men turn into bears women shoot arrows" rule?
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  #81  
Old 12-18-2018, 04:01 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Thank you very much, Marthen. I do not have access to the book, so it is no wonder I was not aware.
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  #82  
Old 03-22-2019, 01:30 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Yet one more interesting thing

According to Staats' words in the diary, Metzen's original idea for the Forsaken was not that they were exactly undead, it was that they were recently plagued humans battling for survival. This immediately brought to my mind an old Forsaken concept done by Metzen where a Forsaken appeared less like a zombie or some sort of undead and more like a human infected with leprosy, with a mask and shreds of cloth hiding all his skin.



And recently, Staats confirmed on Twitter that Metzen indeed did not want them to be undead, but people infected with the Plague shunned by their society. Interestingly this even fits more with the originally given justification for the Forsaken joining the Horde; that the shaman (who at the time belonged solely to the Horde) could stop, even though not revert, the devastating effects of the Plague.



So, it seems more or less clear that originally (before The Frozen Throne solidified their backstory, to be exact), Metzen envisioned the Forsaken as humans with late stages of the Plague, but not dead yet, shunned by society similarly as to how lepers or victims of various plagues were shunned by society in the pre-modern times.

Edit: Now that I am thinking about this, it might be that this original concept had influenced the Broken later. Disconnected from the Light (I imagine the Plague doing that), shunned by their relatives, disfigured.

Last edited by Marthen; 03-22-2019 at 03:04 PM..
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  #83  
Old 03-23-2019, 07:47 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Marthen, is Archimonde wanting the power for his elf really something impossible in current lore?
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  #84  
Old 03-23-2019, 08:15 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Marthen, is Archimonde wanting the power for his elf really something impossible in current lore?
Impossible? Maybe not. But it's highly unlikely at this point. Unlike in the days of WC3, where the beeline the Scourge made for Kalimdor came across like it was basically just Archimonde's idea, Chronicle has since established that the Legion went into unleashing the Scourge on Azeroth as the spearhead of a pre-set plan to invade Kalimdor, take Hyjal and use Nordrassil's power (or rather, that of the Well beneath it) to open a new gigantic portal that would usher in their armies en masse again and allow Sargeras himself to cross over.

In fact they seemed to deliberately connect every Burning Legion proxy invasion to that same basic motive as a thematic tie-in to Legion's events. The Horde invading Azeroth, then the Scourge invading Kalimdor, then Gul'dan 2.0 going to the Broken Isles were all structured to culminate in the opening of a stable portal that would instigate a second full-scale demonic invasion

Even Sargeras himself has since been tied into it. During the time of WC3 it was implied that Sargeras had been missing since Medivh's death, leaving Kil'jaeden nominally in charge. So the hints of Archimonde wanting the Well's power for himself figured into a desire to replace the absent Fallen Titan as master of the Burning Legion. Legion since retconned that; rather than being taken out of the picture when Medivh died, it seems Sargeras himself was alive and well all along and still in command of his armies, basically chilling near Argus for the past 10,000 years orchestrating his whole Fel Pantheon scheme and waiting for a new portal to be opened by his minions Azeroth-side that would allow him to personally step through and claim the planet as he'd intended to do during the WotA.

It made sense for Archimonde to think he could replace Sargeras back when it was because Sargeras had vanished and the only thing between Archimonde and his goal would be gaining enough power to smack down Kli'jaeden. That situation changes significantly in light of Sargeras himself still being alive and in charge, with no actual lapse in his presence that would leave a power vacuum in the Legion that Archimonde would be seeking to fill.
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  #85  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:34 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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When I played WC3 I saw Archimonde as a usurper, not as someone who was filling a power vacuum.
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  #86  
Old 03-26-2019, 02:56 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I know the question was aimed at me, but with ARM's answer, there is little to add. One thing I'd mention is that with the current lore on the Titans, the entire logic behind "becoming perhaps as powerful as Sargeras was" would not work either.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This part is quite sweet.



Another segment also elaborates on Metzen's wishes for the cinematic, he wanted the narrative and the visual to show the Titans creating the universe and the world.

Last edited by Marthen; 03-26-2019 at 02:58 PM..
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  #87  
Old 03-26-2019, 06:31 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Basically he wanted to execute his own version of the Silmarillion's first chapter?
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  #88  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:00 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Basically, yes. But the rest of the team wanted to show the world they had been creating, so it did not happen.

-----------------------------------------------------

I am not sure if I had shared this one before, but here it is.



It's rather interesting, as it shows the Scarlet Crusade or at least a portion of it as a friendly faction, opposing the Undead of Icecrown (the factions on the left were generally friendly, the factions on the right unfriendly, though it's unclear how the system was supposed to work exactly at that point). That's something we've had indications to for a while, but this is the first instance where it's clear and white.

Another interesting matter is that with the Crusade as the main anti-undead faction, the Argent Dawn was much more focused, specializing in fighting the Shadow Council and demons. Other conflicts included the Earthen Band (probably an early name for the Earthen Ring) vs. the Twillight's Hammer, the Dragonflights vs. the Dragonslayers and so on. Also note that this chart comes from 2001, before the team finally settled on making the game bi-factional.

------------------------

Another curious thing is that originally, classes were much more focused thematically/lorewise, and as such, the selection was much more limited. For example, the night elves only had the Warrior, the Druid, and the Hunter among their selection, as the Priest was much more Holy Light/humanity focused*, and the Rogue was essentially much more mercenary assassin oriented.

*This was the original background lore for the Priest class (I think older grognards like me or BaronGrackle will find the references to the clerics and Northshire neat);

After the lands of Lordaeron were corrupted by the undead Scourge, the surviving clerics escaped to Stormwind and attempted to salvage their holy order: combining their forces with those of the clerics of Northshire, the weathered healers founded a new priesthood to guide their people in trouble times. Obsessed with the notion that evil lurked within every mortal creature they set forth to purge men's' souls of corruption and darkness. Using strong mind powers and potent fear effects, these new priests were able to reestablish a strong hold over humanity's spiritual destiny. Though they are still able to heal wounds and cure the sick, priests are much more interested in dominating the weak and wretched in order to save them from themselves.


Also, here are the original backgrounds for the Alliance and the Horde;

The Alliance consists of four races - the noble humans, the adventurous dwarves, the enigmatic night elves, and the ingenious gnomes. Bound by generations of blood and honor, these races seek to bring order to the ravaged kingdoms of the war-torn world.


The Horde consists of four races - the savage orcs, the spiritual tauren, the shadowy undead, and the superstitious trolls. Though they do not always agree, these outcast races have forged a union to insure their mutual survival in the brutal, war-torn world.


It's a bit humorous how the Horde line about not always agreeing somewhat foreshadows the later internal conflict. The line about the Alliance races being bound by generations of blood and honor is interesting as well, a clear reference to Of Blood and Honor and other older bits. Talk about stealing themes, Horde!
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  #89  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:28 PM
BattleNub BattleNub is offline

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Combining that priest description with the Alliance description is interesting to me too. Brings me back to something I always harp on: The Alliance should be about order at the possible expense of some freedoms. Horde should be about freedom, at the expense of some additional conflict. Priests essentially manipulating people to be calmer and braver really speaks to that, and would have put an interesting dark side on the Alliance. Yet since the downside of the Alliance philosophy hasn't been explored enough, you just see the negative aspect of the Horde's.
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  #90  
Old 03-29-2019, 09:07 PM
Mending Mending is offline

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Priests essentially manipulating people to be calmer and braver really speaks to that, and would have put an interesting dark side on the Alliance. Yet since the downside of the Alliance philosophy hasn't been explored enough, you just see the negative aspect of the Horde's.
We see this happening with Yrel, the Lightbound, Xe’ra, and we can assume, the Kul Tirans purified during the Drustvar incursion.
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  #91  
Old 03-29-2019, 10:54 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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We see this happening with Yrel, the Lightbound, Xe’ra, and we can assume, the Kul Tirans purified during the Drustvar incursion.
What Tirassians purified?
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  #92  
Old 03-30-2019, 12:40 AM
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  #93  
Old 03-30-2019, 04:01 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Yrel and her little friends hardly count. They're not in the Alliance proper.
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  #94  
Old 03-30-2019, 04:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Yrel and her little friends hardly count. They're not in the Alliance proper.
The AoL force in Drustvar is the concern I think
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  #95  
Old 04-01-2019, 06:47 AM
BattleNub BattleNub is offline

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It remains to be seen of the MU AoL will resort to the tactics of Yrel and the Lightbound. I sort of doubt Blizzard would go with something so drastic for an Allied race they just added. Unless they create a splinter group.
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  #96  
Old 04-01-2019, 04:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I like that the Dwarves have "adventurous" as their adjective, as it further sets them apart from usual copy-paste Dwarves that are more insular and stubborn to mingle with other races. I think that's why I liked starting the game as a Dwarf, because I really enjoyed their more jovial and extroverted attitude that made them liable to being easy friends with various races. (Horde races notwithstanding.)
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