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  #76  
Old 04-08-2017, 06:36 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Amon was entirely out of left field. His entire plot retcons not only the SC1 manual backstory, but it even retcons the Dark Origins that inspired it. (His motivations are abysmally stupid. Whiny, entitled millenial brat springs to mind.)

Duran was established as a mysterious, immortal stranger who manipulated everyone for the purpose of creating zerg/protoss hybrids. It was implied he was a xel'naga and that they were actually religious nutjobs trying to create an artificial god, not good natured scientists who fostered civilizations out of the goodness of their hearts. The protoss were a failure and the zerg were incomplete. The Overmind was trying to finish the job by assimilating the protoss, which is why Duran states that Kerrigan spend up the time table: she was the template for psionic zerg strains to counter the protoss psionics.

I will concede that BW retconning the protoss victory is a huge plot hole. Adding the UED is contrived and had no set up: there's no reason why the Umojans and Kel-Morians couldn't have replaced them. The Zerg schism makes no sense either, especially not by stating Daggoth is a renegade (implying Kerrigan is a loyalist). I guess BW really is badly executed.

There was never any set up for Kerrigan's redemption in SC2. In fact BW ruins her relationship with the Overmind and treats its control inconsistently. In SC1, the Overmind was the will of the swarm. The cerebrates and Kerrigan were NOT having their free will overridden by the Overmind: the Overmind WAS their free will. Everything they did, including personal projects, served the will of the swarm. This is why Kerrigan became the complete opposite of her human self, as the original Sarah was effectively dead.

In BW, she claims she was a pawn the entire time. She claims she wants to kill the new Overmind to avoid being controlled. However, it never asserts control over her (or her subordinate cerebrate) despite asserting control over the remaining cerebrates and their broods. Furthermore, Daggoth and his faction are labeled "Renegade Swarm" rather than loyalists, which implies that Kerrigan is a loyalist. Furthermore, Kerrigan's control over half the swarm after OM's death comes out of nowhere as she was never once implied to have capabilities comparable to a cerebrate. Yet she quickly surpasses the majority of cerebrates in terms of sheer mental strength. The schism between her and the cerebrates doesn't make sense unless she was a slave, even though that it was clear that the Overmind favored her (ostensibly as a strain template).

In fact, one could make the wild guess that Overmind gave her secret orders in the event the Protoss tried to kill him with Void energy like Zasz. It knew that it was vulnerable and surely made back up plans. Kerrigan rebels against the other cerebrates because her psionic intuition told her that the UED would take over even if she had no conscious awareness of future events... or maybe Duran manipulated her the whole time. Whatever.

BW and SC2 pretty much bungle the plot. BW retcons the ending of SC into a contrived bad end where the Zerg win despite being decapitated at the time, then introduces a completely new faction rather than using existing ones, and then forces the zerg into an arbitrary civil war that ignores their previous development and destroys what made them interesting.

In that light, SC2 retcons to Raynor and Kerrigan are just BW magnified. The rest of SC2 is full of plot holes and unnecessary retcons that destroy what made the factions interesting in favor of absud soap opera dynamics.

So a true Starcraft sequel would have to retcon BW and SC2.

EDIT: detailed review of Brood War plot holes: https://superior-realities.com/2014/...ing-to-say-it/

Last edited by BoxCrayonTales; 04-08-2017 at 06:55 PM..
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  #77  
Old 04-09-2017, 03:35 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Amon was entirely out of left field. His entire plot retcons not only the SC1 manual backstory, but it even retcons the Dark Origins that inspired it. (His motivations are abysmally stupid. Whiny, entitled millenial brat springs to mind.)

Duran was established as a mysterious, immortal stranger who manipulated everyone for the purpose of creating zerg/protoss hybrids. It was implied he was a xel'naga and that they were actually religious nutjobs trying to create an artificial god, not good natured scientists who fostered civilizations out of the goodness of their hearts. The protoss were a failure and the zerg were incomplete. The Overmind was trying to finish the job by assimilating the protoss, which is why Duran states that Kerrigan spend up the time table: she was the template for psionic zerg strains to counter the protoss psionics.

I will concede that BW retconning the protoss victory is a huge plot hole. Adding the UED is contrived and had no set up: there's no reason why the Umojans and Kel-Morians couldn't have replaced them. The Zerg schism makes no sense either, especially not by stating Daggoth is a renegade (implying Kerrigan is a loyalist). I guess BW really is badly executed.

There was never any set up for Kerrigan's redemption in SC2. In fact BW ruins her relationship with the Overmind and treats its control inconsistently. In SC1, the Overmind was the will of the swarm. The cerebrates and Kerrigan were NOT having their free will overridden by the Overmind: the Overmind WAS their free will. Everything they did, including personal projects, served the will of the swarm. This is why Kerrigan became the complete opposite of her human self, as the original Sarah was effectively dead.

In BW, she claims she was a pawn the entire time. She claims she wants to kill the new Overmind to avoid being controlled. However, it never asserts control over her (or her subordinate cerebrate) despite asserting control over the remaining cerebrates and their broods. Furthermore, Daggoth and his faction are labeled "Renegade Swarm" rather than loyalists, which implies that Kerrigan is a loyalist. Furthermore, Kerrigan's control over half the swarm after OM's death comes out of nowhere as she was never once implied to have capabilities comparable to a cerebrate. Yet she quickly surpasses the majority of cerebrates in terms of sheer mental strength. The schism between her and the cerebrates doesn't make sense unless she was a slave, even though that it was clear that the Overmind favored her (ostensibly as a strain template).

In fact, one could make the wild guess that Overmind gave her secret orders in the event the Protoss tried to kill him with Void energy like Zasz. It knew that it was vulnerable and surely made back up plans. Kerrigan rebels against the other cerebrates because her psionic intuition told her that the UED would take over even if she had no conscious awareness of future events... or maybe Duran manipulated her the whole time. Whatever.

BW and SC2 pretty much bungle the plot. BW retcons the ending of SC into a contrived bad end where the Zerg win despite being decapitated at the time, then introduces a completely new faction rather than using existing ones, and then forces the zerg into an arbitrary civil war that ignores their previous development and destroys what made them interesting.

In that light, SC2 retcons to Raynor and Kerrigan are just BW magnified. The rest of SC2 is full of plot holes and unnecessary retcons that destroy what made the factions interesting in favor of absud soap opera dynamics.

So a true Starcraft sequel would have to retcon BW and SC2.

EDIT: detailed review of Brood War plot holes: https://superior-realities.com/2014/...ing-to-say-it/
I kinda agree but don't think Amon was entirely an asspull. Duran's words were "I am the servant of a greater power." He himself admits that he's serving an unseen master.

His motives actually make sense too. He's a lucifer archetype, and a foil to Artanis and later Kerrigan. Both of them found responsibility thrust upon them but ultimately handled it maturely in the end. Amon resented that being a god wasn't all he thought it was and is taking his anger out on the universe (again a common satanic archetype in that he's lashing out in hate and pride and passing it off as "freedom.")

Kerrigan's redemption I felt had potential. She ultimately DOES spare Korhal EVEN AFTER she thinks Jim has abandoned her forever (she's surprised when he comes aiding). This shows he DID get through to her.

Also the QoB is an example of forcible change not development.

Considering that a.) The entire sons of Korhal were involved with Tarsonis b.) Kerrigan still felt terrible about both it and Antiga Prime despite having every reason to be gleeful (these are the guys who ruined her life) and c.) she could have not only deluded herself into thinking that the protoss would kill everyone anyway but also more importantly was acting out of misguided loyalty to Mengsk rather than malice or cruelty it's more of a tragedy. Kerrigan certainly had darkness but she wasn't some mentally illy psycho. Also there was a way to harmonize it (have it that the infestation amplified negative emotions like rage and anger while suppressing compassion.) It happened with Charles Whitman (That guy who murdered everyone in the clock tower; he had a tumor in the part of his brain that controlled rage, which some think is why he ultimately ent on a spree)
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  #78  
Old 04-10-2017, 01:30 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I will concede that BW retconning the protoss victory is a huge plot hole. Adding the UED is contrived and had no set up: there's no reason why the Umojans and Kel-Morians couldn't have replaced them. The Zerg schism makes no sense either, especially not by stating Daggoth is a renegade (implying Kerrigan is a loyalist). I guess BW really is badly executed.
I mean the only way they could have ultimately followed up on the Zerg plotline from SC1 was by... eradicating them, so I'm not sure that would work. But the schism/civil war thing didn't really bother me so much.

Calling the Daggoth faction 'renegade' was a bit odd I guess, but fundamentally Kerrigan being at odds with Daggoth and the cerebrates or psionically manipulating Zerg didn't bother me too much. Plus what else were they going to do with them? Revive the Overmind and keep it around as an actual copy of the original?

I mean the link you provided is pretty subjective. "UED doesn't seem like a threat", "Zeratul should have contacted Fenix" First off there's no indication that he COULD, second, they hardly know each other. "Kerrigan is obviously the bigger threat" Which is only obvious to an omniscient observer who knows where the plot's going. Dugalle's arc is much more sensible when you consider (as I've pointed out a few times) that the Brood War intro implies that Stukov has betrayed Dugalle before. So him preserving the Psi Disruptor instead of destroying it after abandoning the battle on Aiur seems really suspicious. The existence of the Captain character is really the biggest problem there and all the hammy "hey I'm a bad guy" dialogue from Duran and Kerrigan (okay, that's probably the biggest problem with the storytelling).

I'm not gonna claim Brood War's Shakespeare or anything (it's a pretty straight-forward pulpy story) and the presentation isn't always the best but it's not as riddled with plot holes as people seem to think it is.
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  #79  
Old 04-10-2017, 03:06 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Arguably one of the biggest issues with the zerg "civil war" angle was that per SC1, it should have been an impossible occurrence. It was established with the fate of Zasz and the Garm Brood that killing cerebrates renders their broods feral and irretrievable to the Swarm. Meaning that when the new Overmind was killed, every brood not spawned by Kerrigan's pet cerebrate should have run amok and attacked everyone instead of the Swarm just defaulting to her control.

And Zasz wasn't just some random casualty either, whose death and its aftermath could be readily erased without consequence to events thereafter. His death was a major turning point in the entire story, as it both revealed how cerebrates could be killed, prevented the Swarm from pursuing Zeratul while they dealt with exterminating the Garm Brood, and exposed Aiur's location to the Overmind.

Brood War (and subsequently SC2) even reinforced this idea with Aiur still overrun by rampaging feral zerg in the absence of the Overmind and its cerebrates, yet proceeded to unevenly retcon that same premise as the story went along, bumping off cerebrates left-and-right while Kerrigan effortlessly scooped up each of their broods with no explanation as to how or why they were suddenly hers for the taking.

The continued existence of feral zerg broods in places like Tarsonis and Aiur kept hearkening back to this highly SC1-relevant plot point as well, yet at the same time Kerrigan's rise to power in Brood War kept contradicting it.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-10-2017 at 03:19 AM..
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Old 04-10-2017, 01:14 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I mean the only way they could have ultimately followed up on the Zerg plotline from SC1 was by... eradicating them, so I'm not sure that would work. But the schism/civil war thing didn't really bother me so much.

Calling the Daggoth faction 'renegade' was a bit odd I guess, but fundamentally Kerrigan being at odds with Daggoth and the cerebrates or psionically manipulating Zerg didn't bother me too much. Plus what else were they going to do with them? Revive the Overmind and keep it around as an actual copy of the original?

I mean the link you provided is pretty subjective. "UED doesn't seem like a threat", "Zeratul should have contacted Fenix" First off there's no indication that he COULD, second, they hardly know each other. "Kerrigan is obviously the bigger threat" Which is only obvious to an omniscient observer who knows where the plot's going. Dugalle's arc is much more sensible when you consider (as I've pointed out a few times) that the Brood War intro implies that Stukov has betrayed Dugalle before. So him preserving the Psi Disruptor instead of destroying it after abandoning the battle on Aiur seems really suspicious. The existence of the Captain character is really the biggest problem there and all the hammy "hey I'm a bad guy" dialogue from Duran and Kerrigan (okay, that's probably the biggest problem with the storytelling).

I'm not gonna claim Brood War's Shakespeare or anything (it's a pretty straight-forward pulpy story) and the presentation isn't always the best but it's not as riddled with plot holes as people seem to think it is.
Once Kerrigan murdered aldaris shakuras could have told them Kerrigan was bad news. Also since the Protoss were already going for the crystals Kerrigan didn't need to persuade them to do it

Also they could have had a "Zerg reborn" story where Kerrigan used her power to reunite the cerebrates and rebuild the swarm after aiur shattered them.

Wols problems are an extension of bw
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  #81  
Old 04-10-2017, 03:42 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Arguably one of the biggest issues with the zerg "civil war" angle was that per SC1, it should have been an impossible occurrence. It was established with the fate of Zasz and the Garm Brood that killing cerebrates renders their broods feral and irretrievable to the Swarm. Meaning that when the new Overmind was killed, every brood not spawned by Kerrigan's pet cerebrate should have run amok and attacked everyone instead of the Swarm just defaulting to her control.

And Zasz wasn't just some random casualty either, whose death and its aftermath could be readily erased without consequence to events thereafter. His death was a major turning point in the entire story, as it both revealed how cerebrates could be killed, prevented the Swarm from pursuing Zeratul while they dealt with exterminating the Garm Brood, and exposed Aiur's location to the Overmind.

Brood War (and subsequently SC2) even reinforced this idea with Aiur still overrun by rampaging feral zerg in the absence of the Overmind and its cerebrates, yet proceeded to unevenly retcon that same premise as the story went along, bumping off cerebrates left-and-right while Kerrigan effortlessly scooped up each of their broods with no explanation as to how or why they were suddenly hers for the taking.

The continued existence of feral zerg broods in places like Tarsonis and Aiur kept hearkening back to this highly SC1-relevant plot point as well, yet at the same time Kerrigan's rise to power in Brood War kept contradicting it.
Absolutely that's a huge inconsistency.

But again, that's just not a really viable way to continue the story: "and then all the Zerg went insane, rampaged, and were destroyed and no one ever heard from them again." It's a pretty significant retcon, but it's SUCH a necessary one ultimately to keep the Zerg as a threat.

I think they could have probably done a better job explaining factions and what Zerg was doing what post-SC1 overall but I think the change from "Zerg go crazy without their cerebrate" to "Zerg are weak-willed beings that are controlled by the most dominant psionic" was a sensible change.

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Once Kerrigan murdered aldaris shakuras could have told them Kerrigan was bad news. Also since the Protoss were already going for the crystals Kerrigan didn't need to persuade them to do it
Told who? Raynor and Fenix? Why would they even think that'd be relevant, though?

Like, yeah, sure they could have. But why is it a flaw that they didn't? There wasn't a reason to. Again, unless you're omniscient and know that Kerrigan was helping them out.
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  #82  
Old 04-10-2017, 05:10 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Here's an overview of my response below. 1) Amon is a lame villain with laughable motivations, 2) the writers of BW and SC2 misunderstood the entire message of the original game, 3) the first game was about moral ambiguity and freedom vs control, not some stupid cosmic battle between a bunch of idiots with nonsensical motives, 4) BW and SC2 are fanfiction tier garbage that turn Kerrigan into a Mary Sue, 5) a real sequel would have Kerrigan continue the Overmind's quest, 6) sequel should embrace the cheesiness while maintaining a coherent plot, 7) my sequel would combine and reorder BW/SC2 (they're pretty much the same plots), 8) my SC3 would go full Red Alert style soap opera with Duran trying to kidnap Raynor's half-zerg baby to become xel'naga Jesus.

And here is my detailed response to the concerns you guys raised:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/...705392#post-12
SC2 selectively interprets and actively contradicts Duran. Fans are taking his statements too seriously. Imagine a human being today talking like he does... He comes across to me as a religious fanatic. I think it works better than way than assuming he is referring to some generic evil space god.

The plot of SC2 is just plain nonsensical even without retcons. The plot is full idiocy and plot holes: https://starcraftiitroubles.wordpress.com

But, SC2 is full of so many retcons that the plot of SC1 shouldn't have been possible in the first place. It contradicts the SC1 xel'naga backstory. The xel'naga were only marginally more advanced than the protoss and zerg, but were utterly outmatched in open warfare. They were hardly gods. Their seeking of "purity" was the only questionable part of their activities. What was purity of form and essence and why did they want a race with these qualities? What was their ultimate plan for the Zerg?

As implied by the title "Dark Origins," Duran's actions and monologue were supposed imply their purpose for the Protoss and Zerg was much darker than we thought. Rather than peaceful tree hugging scientists, what if they were fanatics serving some sinister cause? Were they trying to create... *gasp* God? (This is literally the plot of Evangelion btw, and it's considered a masterpiece classic thing.)

Amon is no Lucifer. Lucifer had sympathetic reasons for rebellion (love, contempt or pride depending on story) and a reasonable plan (conquer universe or something along those lines). Amon has a stupid reason for rebellion (first world problems) and an equally stupid plan (destroy universe). He sounds like a parody of cartoon villains! Even Invader Zim (a real parody) sounds sensible in comparison!

Starcraft is the last game that needed a cosmic battle between good and evil. It was founded on moral ambiguity: the three sides all had motivations that made sense in context. Furthermore, there was an overarching message about freedom versus control, with each faction representing an extreme. The Terrans fought for personal freedom, the Zerg were truly and happily communist, and the Protoss suffered a schism over the choice between independence and submission to the whole. Of course, after SC1 the writers quickly forget this and ruined the Zerg and Protoss by making them humans 2.0.

What made the Overmind a unique villain was that his "evil" plan to improve the Zerg was quite alien and not utterly stupid. It was possible to sympathize with the Zerg while playing them. They had personalities and interactions while being utterly loyal to their cause. This is precisely what the Khala had tried and failed to accomplish.

Ignoring BW and SC2 as bad fanfiction, Kerrigan never needed redemption. Her human personality, who we barely knew, was completely gone. Her will was replaced by the Overmind. She also borders on being a Mary Sue: She was the Overmind's favored daughter. He created a Cerebrate, one of his direct subordinates, for the sole purpose of protecting her. He didn't pass the responsibility to an existing Cerebrate, he created one. He went so far as to give her an enormous ego compared to the cerebrates, to the point were Zasz is openly suspicious (then he conveniently is killed off, as typical for Mary Sue stories). That is how important Kerrigan was to the Swarm. These are all the hallmarks of a classic Mary Sue. The only reason she doesn't tip over into full blown Suedom is because she happily serves the Overmind and she is utterly dependent on the Cerebrate. She doesn't try to hijack the swarm to kill Mengsk (who is going to be eaten anyway, and who she should really be thanking for making her the evil princess) and force Raynor to marry her (despite knowing him for all of five minutes).

BW and SC2 read like bad fanfiction. BW turned her into a self-centered Mary Sue who can control feral zerg out of nowhere, turns on her own kind for no apparent reason and convince everyone to believe her utterly transparent ploys (and those who distrust her conveniently die); none of this is ever explained except as Mary Sue fanfiction. SC2 forgot why the Zerg were interesting in the first place (they had no concept of disloyalty and wanted to assimilate all life) and made her an even bigger Mary Sue with inconsistent morals who gets rewarded for nothing by becoming God.

What made Infested Kerrigan compelling was that her vestiges of humanity didn't conflict with her new Zerg nature. She represented the Zerg's plans for humanity. The Zerg assimilated countless species, retaining their useful unique characteristics while turning them into grotesque parodies of themselves. Kerrigan was a window into humanity's future should the Zerg win (the exploding infested terrans were considered failures, since humanity's intelligence and psionic potential was what the Zerg wanted). The most disturbing part was that her existence seemed pretty seductive, adding to the horror.

Giving her human motivations ruins the Zerg. The Zerg are compelling because they are communists and want everyone else to join them, in contrast to the Terrans (who value their freedom) and the Protoss (who struggle with the choice between personal freedom and submission to the whole).

So any StarCraft story that actually understands and values the original moral message must necessarily discard BW and SC2. They ruin the Zerg and the Protoss by humanizing them when they were compelling because of their alien nature, not despite it.

Any Zerg campaign must necessarily discard human motives. In a true sequel, Kerrigan and Cerebrate would try to rebuild the Zerg and continue assimilating. In fact, you could use Kerrigan as a deceptive public face for the swarm like Locutus of Borg or Kel'thuzad and not that stupid Borg Queen garbage. The Zerg promise unity and happiness, all at the tiny cost of free will; you wouldn't miss it anyway, just look how happy Kerrigan is!

A sequel story could combine the forgettable plots of BW and SC2 and rewrite them to be not utterly stupid.

Episode IV Terran campaign: Mengsk uses psi-disruptors to enslave feral zerg which should be impossible, Raynor fights and discredits him.

Episode V Zerg campaign: Kerrigan rebuilds the Zerg with the intent to assimilate humanity and the protoss. She seduces Raynor and brainwashes Raszagal, in excruciating detail.

Episode VI Protoss campaign: Duran reveals his "evil" plan to create God from the Zerg and Protoss, as the xel'naga always intended (religious, remember?). The Protoss experience a schism between loyalists and renegades. The xel'naga temple creates an anti-Zerg field around Shakuras and turns Kerrigan into an amnesiac human.

In SC3, the Zerg are after Kerrigan and Raynor's half-Zerg antichrist/jesus baby. (Okay, this is a joke invoking soap opera plots and horror movies. But since the story is still about the player characters ordering armies around while other characters do stuff it isn't as jarring as a soap opera cinematic and the plot isn't a giant hole.)

Episode VII Terran campaign: The UED invade and want to kill everyone because they're space nazis. They kill Kerrigan and Raynor.

Episode VIII Zerg campaign: Raynor's half-Zerg kid joins the Zerg for revenge and great justice. They assimilate the UED and then Earth. At some point they finally perfect an army of psionic zerg. They return to Aiur and assimilate the Protoss there.

Episode IX Protoss campaign: the Zerg assault Shakuras yet again to assimilate the remaining Protoss. The Protoss upload themselves into robot bodies to escape the Zerg. Zerg are now perfected and go on to create a nightmarish H.R. Giger universe as foretold in bullshit xel'naga prophecy.

Honestly I can see why the writers were unable to continue the story without turning the Protoss and Zerg into humans 2.0. Alien motivations are hard.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:14 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I'm sorry, but you're talking about the stories of BW and SC2 being bad while suggesting that Kerrigan and Raynor should have a half-zerg kid? Excuse me?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this because your criticisms of SC2 and Brood War are totally at odds with one another.

Brood War isn't a story about cosmic good and evil at all (the 'cosmic' element really only plays into the secret mission, and that's pretty much just a teaser for SC2 anyway). It's about the remnants of the Swarm, Protoss and the Dominion fighting the UED for scraps. Which, ultimately everyone involved is mostly morally ambiguous.

I understand that people enjoyed the original alien take on the Zerg and Protoss, but I mean: the Overmind dies at the end of SC1 (ending any plans it may have had for the swarm) and I think in part when they assimilated Kerrigan, they ultimately brought along any human baggage she may have had or at least I think that's a mostly logical conclusion. I think an interpretation where she stays with the rest of the Zerg (Daggoth et al) would have been interesting, but I don't think it's an inheritely superior story to what they did.

Personally: my own opinion on the matter is I think it'd be even more repetitive if the Zerg WERE nothing more than what the Overmind envisioned them to be, and what it's ultimate objectives were for them. I think maybe Daggoth could have been kept around. But ultimately they never did anything with him.

I also find your interpretation of what a Mary Sue is, is also pretty limited. Beyond the fact that Mary Sue is a poorly defined, broad, non-academic cheap fanon term. A Mary Sue by it's very virtue is someone who is ultimately transparently supposed to be sympathetic. Which doesn't apply to Kerrigan in Brood War at all. She's maybe supposed to be empathetic or pitiable but not sympathetic. It's not just someone who's incredibly important who other people admire or whatever.

The Zasz example you're talking about would only apply if he was killed BECAUSE he hated Kerrigan or if Kerrigan or someone else killed him because he hated Kerrigan. He's not, he's just an unimportant tertiary character who is a random casualty of Zeratul. (And he's the only cerebrate they bother to name outside of Daggoth) Who turned out to be right anyway, Kerrigan WAS the ruin of Daggoth and the swarm as they knew it.

I also don't think Infested Kerrigan in Overmind is particularly compelling regardless. Perhaps... interesting, but certainly not compelling. Brood War is where she has objectives, and dreams and where she asserts and makes those things happen. Even if the plotting is incredibly cumbersome while being poorly explained and the actual presentation can be poor.

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Honestly I can see why the writers were unable to continue the story without turning the Protoss and Zerg into humans 2.0. Alien motivations are hard.
Pretty much. And even when you do it's hard to make something that's not just a repeat of SC1.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:03 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Absolutely that's a huge inconsistency.

But again, that's just not a really viable way to continue the story: "and then all the Zerg went insane, rampaged, and were destroyed and no one ever heard from them again." It's a pretty significant retcon, but it's SUCH a necessary one ultimately to keep the Zerg as a threat.

I think they could have probably done a better job explaining factions and what Zerg was doing what post-SC1 overall but I think the change from "Zerg go crazy without their cerebrate" to "Zerg are weak-willed beings that are controlled by the most dominant psionic" was a sensible change.



Told who? Raynor and Fenix? Why would they even think that'd be relevant, though?

Like, yeah, sure they could have. But why is it a flaw that they didn't? There wasn't a reason to. Again, unless you're omniscient and know that Kerrigan was helping them out.
Not really. Heart of the swarm has the zerg be almost broken after Char and then get back on their feet through Kerrigan's leadership skills and force of will. They're on the edge of death and brutally claw their way back with force of will.

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Here's an overview of my response below. 1) Amon is a lame villain with laughable motivations, 2) the writers of BW and SC2 misunderstood the entire message of the original game, 3) the first game was about moral ambiguity and freedom vs control, not some stupid cosmic battle between a bunch of idiots with nonsensical motives, 4) BW and SC2 are fanfiction tier garbage that turn Kerrigan into a Mary Sue, 5) a real sequel would have Kerrigan continue the Overmind's quest, 6) sequel should embrace the cheesiness while maintaining a coherent plot, 7) my sequel would combine and reorder BW/SC2 (they're pretty much the same plots), 8) my SC3 would go full Red Alert style soap opera with Duran trying to kidnap Raynor's half-zerg baby to become xel'naga Jesus.

And here is my detailed response to the concerns you guys raised:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/...705392#post-12
SC2 selectively interprets and actively contradicts Duran. Fans are taking his statements too seriously. Imagine a human being today talking like he does... He comes across to me as a religious fanatic. I think it works better than way than assuming he is referring to some generic evil space god.

The plot of SC2 is just plain nonsensical even without retcons. The plot is full idiocy and plot holes: https://starcraftiitroubles.wordpress.com

But, SC2 is full of so many retcons that the plot of SC1 shouldn't have been possible in the first place. It contradicts the SC1 xel'naga backstory. The xel'naga were only marginally more advanced than the protoss and zerg, but were utterly outmatched in open warfare. They were hardly gods. Their seeking of "purity" was the only questionable part of their activities. What was purity of form and essence and why did they want a race with these qualities? What was their ultimate plan for the Zerg?

As implied by the title "Dark Origins," Duran's actions and monologue were supposed imply their purpose for the Protoss and Zerg was much darker than we thought. Rather than peaceful tree hugging scientists, what if they were fanatics serving some sinister cause? Were they trying to create... *gasp* God? (This is literally the plot of Evangelion btw, and it's considered a masterpiece classic thing.)

Amon is no Lucifer. Lucifer had sympathetic reasons for rebellion (love, contempt or pride depending on story) and a reasonable plan (conquer universe or something along those lines). Amon has a stupid reason for rebellion (first world problems) and an equally stupid plan (destroy universe). He sounds like a parody of cartoon villains! Even Invader Zim (a real parody) sounds sensible in comparison!

Starcraft is the last game that needed a cosmic battle between good and evil. It was founded on moral ambiguity: the three sides all had motivations that made sense in context. Furthermore, there was an overarching message about freedom versus control, with each faction representing an extreme. The Terrans fought for personal freedom, the Zerg were truly and happily communist, and the Protoss suffered a schism over the choice between independence and submission to the whole. Of course, after SC1 the writers quickly forget this and ruined the Zerg and Protoss by making them humans 2.0.

What made the Overmind a unique villain was that his "evil" plan to improve the Zerg was quite alien and not utterly stupid. It was possible to sympathize with the Zerg while playing them. They had personalities and interactions while being utterly loyal to their cause. This is precisely what the Khala had tried and failed to accomplish.

Ignoring BW and SC2 as bad fanfiction, Kerrigan never needed redemption. Her human personality, who we barely knew, was completely gone. Her will was replaced by the Overmind. She also borders on being a Mary Sue: She was the Overmind's favored daughter. He created a Cerebrate, one of his direct subordinates, for the sole purpose of protecting her. He didn't pass the responsibility to an existing Cerebrate, he created one. He went so far as to give her an enormous ego compared to the cerebrates, to the point were Zasz is openly suspicious (then he conveniently is killed off, as typical for Mary Sue stories). That is how important Kerrigan was to the Swarm. These are all the hallmarks of a classic Mary Sue. The only reason she doesn't tip over into full blown Suedom is because she happily serves the Overmind and she is utterly dependent on the Cerebrate. She doesn't try to hijack the swarm to kill Mengsk (who is going to be eaten anyway, and who she should really be thanking for making her the evil princess) and force Raynor to marry her (despite knowing him for all of five minutes).

BW and SC2 read like bad fanfiction. BW turned her into a self-centered Mary Sue who can control feral zerg out of nowhere, turns on her own kind for no apparent reason and convince everyone to believe her utterly transparent ploys (and those who distrust her conveniently die); none of this is ever explained except as Mary Sue fanfiction. SC2 forgot why the Zerg were interesting in the first place (they had no concept of disloyalty and wanted to assimilate all life) and made her an even bigger Mary Sue with inconsistent morals who gets rewarded for nothing by becoming God.

What made Infested Kerrigan compelling was that her vestiges of humanity didn't conflict with her new Zerg nature. She represented the Zerg's plans for humanity. The Zerg assimilated countless species, retaining their useful unique characteristics while turning them into grotesque parodies of themselves. Kerrigan was a window into humanity's future should the Zerg win (the exploding infested terrans were considered failures, since humanity's intelligence and psionic potential was what the Zerg wanted). The most disturbing part was that her existence seemed pretty seductive, adding to the horror.

Giving her human motivations ruins the Zerg. The Zerg are compelling because they are communists and want everyone else to join them, in contrast to the Terrans (who value their freedom) and the Protoss (who struggle with the choice between personal freedom and submission to the whole).

So any StarCraft story that actually understands and values the original moral message must necessarily discard BW and SC2. They ruin the Zerg and the Protoss by humanizing them when they were compelling because of their alien nature, not despite it.

Any Zerg campaign must necessarily discard human motives. In a true sequel, Kerrigan and Cerebrate would try to rebuild the Zerg and continue assimilating. In fact, you could use Kerrigan as a deceptive public face for the swarm like Locutus of Borg or Kel'thuzad and not that stupid Borg Queen garbage. The Zerg promise unity and happiness, all at the tiny cost of free will; you wouldn't miss it anyway, just look how happy Kerrigan is!

A sequel story could combine the forgettable plots of BW and SC2 and rewrite them to be not utterly stupid.

Episode IV Terran campaign: Mengsk uses psi-disruptors to enslave feral zerg which should be impossible, Raynor fights and discredits him.

Episode V Zerg campaign: Kerrigan rebuilds the Zerg with the intent to assimilate humanity and the protoss. She seduces Raynor and brainwashes Raszagal, in excruciating detail.

Episode VI Protoss campaign: Duran reveals his "evil" plan to create God from the Zerg and Protoss, as the xel'naga always intended (religious, remember?). The Protoss experience a schism between loyalists and renegades. The xel'naga temple creates an anti-Zerg field around Shakuras and turns Kerrigan into an amnesiac human.

In SC3, the Zerg are after Kerrigan and Raynor's half-Zerg antichrist/jesus baby. (Okay, this is a joke invoking soap opera plots and horror movies. But since the story is still about the player characters ordering armies around while other characters do stuff it isn't as jarring as a soap opera cinematic and the plot isn't a giant hole.)

Episode VII Terran campaign: The UED invade and want to kill everyone because they're space nazis. They kill Kerrigan and Raynor.

Episode VIII Zerg campaign: Raynor's half-Zerg kid joins the Zerg for revenge and great justice. They assimilate the UED and then Earth. At some point they finally perfect an army of psionic zerg. They return to Aiur and assimilate the Protoss there.

Episode IX Protoss campaign: the Zerg assault Shakuras yet again to assimilate the remaining Protoss. The Protoss upload themselves into robot bodies to escape the Zerg. Zerg are now perfected and go on to create a nightmarish H.R. Giger universe as foretold in bullshit xel'naga prophecy.

Honestly I can see why the writers were unable to continue the story without turning the Protoss and Zerg into humans 2.0. Alien motivations are hard.
1.) He works as a foil; Kerrigan and Artanis ultimately accept responsibility and the burdens of leadership. Amon doesn't and tries to destroy the Xel'naga's work as a fuck you and just rule over as a god. He's basically the shadow archetype to BW Kerrigan and Artanis

2.) Kerrigan does forcibly undergo change to become the QoB (she only goes along with Tarsonis out of misguided loyalty to mengsk and the belief the protoss will kill everyone and are thus the worse option and even then she felt awful about it, which puts her above most of the other sons who partook) but she could be a compelling character without the overmind's quest. Also she disobeys the overmind's direct order to kill all the terrans and lets Jim and his men leave alive, showing there was some lingering humanity there. In Hots she only gets rewarded when she stops being a jerk and does the right thing (Raynor saves her because she saved civilians even though she thought she'd lost him, and so showed he DID get through). THAT's what prompts him to save her from Mengsk's artifact

3.) Actually we knew there was a dark force on the horizon. YOU interpreted it as making god and in a way that's what SC2 did (the ultimate goal is to make Amon a new body) but it never outright said it was the xel'naga as a whole.

4.) Moral ambiguity was a theme certainly but Mengsk was an unambiguous monster (his "if I don't rule the sector it can burn" speech, abandoning Kerrigan for calling him out on his actions). He was a charming man but he was very much a monster (while SC2 was mixed in his character, his heartless selfishness and cruelty was well captured).

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Old 04-10-2017, 09:52 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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BW/SC2 are fanfiction tier garbage with poor writing and nonsensical plots that completely miss the original moral message of SC1. SC1 was about miral ambiguity, the horrors of war, and independent freedom versus submission to the whole.

Turning the Zerg and Protoss into Terrans 2.0 is stupid. Just use Terrans for everything, don't introduce unique aliens only to destroy their alienness.

I was joking about Raynor's half-zerg kid. I was mocking SC2 doing silly soap opera and generic fantasy plots. I hate SC2 with the burning intensity of a billion suns.

Amon is a lame villain the series never needed. If you like him, then you need to read better fiction until you realize how badly written he is. Take some literature criticism courses in college or something.

Kerrigan lost her humanity. She never disobeyed the Overmind because she literally couldn't: the Overmind changed its mind. Or the writers made a mistake and forgot. As they are wont to do.

Amon contradicts the Dark Origins monologue. It is explained in the link I gave. Duran's plot was literally the Overmind's original goal. That's why the Overmind assimilated Kerrigan. The writers forgot what they wrote!

Ignore the stupid SC2 retcons like Amon. They are retcons that make no sense. They are invalid for arguments. Amon doesn't exist! He is a fanfiction character written by bad fanfic writers.

The xel'naga, the REAL SC1 manual aliens who were clearly mortal and got their asses handed to them by their own creations, sought to create a race with purity of essence and form. Both the Protoss and the Overmind describe the xel'naga and their artifacts in religious terms, even though they killed their creators. Duran speaks in religious bullshit and is implied to be one.

Now, if I was writing SC2, I would interpret that as the xel'naga trying to create an artficial god to whisk them to paradise. That motivation makes sense in this context and doesn't require nonsensical retcons.

The point I am making is that any sequel to SC1 would have to rehash it. So basically it was always impossible to write a good sequel.

SC1 wasn't perfect and seems to have a few plot holes or continuity errors that nobody notices unless they're using them as argument fodder.

BW is noticeably bad and littered with idiocy. SC2 is infinitely worse.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:00 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Not really. Heart of the swarm has the zerg be almost broken after Char and then get back on their feet through Kerrigan's leadership skills and force of will. They're on the edge of death and brutally claw their way back with force of will.
Which is... only possible because they retconned how the relationship between Zerg and Cerebrates worked.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:03 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Which is... only possible because they retconned how the relationship between Zerg and Cerebrates worked.
How so? Technically Kerrigan is seen controlling Zerg in BW. One could argue that it could be a good storyline while keeping Aiur a victory for the toss.

"You thought we were broken. That we were beaten. You were wrong, and that arrogance will be your undoing." Something like that. Kerrigan through force of will reuniting the shattered swarm and rebuilding them into a force to be reckoned with is a pretty good idea honestly

The issue with the UED is that groups like the KMC or Umojan could have done it to. They didn't need to bring them in, and in fact it describes bigger problems (why the fuck they're able to keep them under surveillance for more than 100 years with limited power).


Box, the webpage you link is kinda stupid. You had your take on the story and honestly I find myself siding with Aldrius. You're being a massive prick about how you present your ideas. I agree BW has massive plot holes in it but I'm still put off by your arrogance.

Amon was conceived before work on the trilogy even BEGAN, by the same writers. Metzen wrote the main outline of ALL the games so you're being kinda a twat
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:19 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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I appologize for being an arrogant twat. My last post was written late at knight and I didnt get enough sleep. I am forever bitter about SC2 and even more better when I lost my SC1/BW nostalgia goggles.

I was referring to the battle.net link. One of the posts explains the contradictions to Dark Origins.

Metzen never included Amon nor Jim's love story in an outline. The writers pretty obviously made each trilogy from scratch.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:38 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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How so? Technically Kerrigan is seen controlling Zerg in BW.
Which is only possible because they retconned how the relationship between Zerg and the cerebrates worked.

In a phrase:

In SC1 without their associated cerebrate the Zerg go crazy and start rampaging and cannot be controlled.

In Brood War and beyond, without someone controlling them the zerg become malleable and can be controlled by anyone.

They could maybe explain it somehow, but fundamentally it comes down to just... the second one is more viable for future storylines with the Zerg and is the only way to keep them threatening.

I mean fundamentally Aiur is a victory for the Protoss anyway. The resulting Brood War is because they killed the Overmind. It's more that the game itself in Brood War presents the Zerg as being innumerable and unstoppable.

Quote:
Metzen never included Amon nor Jim's love story in an outline. The writers pretty obviously made each trilogy from scratch.
Yeah the SC2 games all feel like they made them up as they went. And there are some clear, clear changes they made due to fan backlash. (i.e. the Tassadar 'twist') Though admittedly the overall plotlines probably didn't change too, too much.
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:32 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Which is only possible because they retconned how the relationship between Zerg and the cerebrates worked.

In a phrase:

In SC1 without their associated cerebrate the Zerg go crazy and start rampaging and cannot be controlled.

In Brood War and beyond, without someone controlling them the zerg become malleable and can be controlled by anyone.

They could maybe explain it somehow, but fundamentally it comes down to just... the second one is more viable for future storylines with the Zerg and is the only way to keep them threatening.

I mean fundamentally Aiur is a victory for the Protoss anyway. The resulting Brood War is because they killed the Overmind. It's more that the game itself in Brood War presents the Zerg as being innumerable and unstoppable.



Yeah the SC2 games all feel like they made them up as they went. And there are some clear, clear changes they made due to fan backlash. (i.e. the Tassadar 'twist') Though admittedly the overall plotlines probably didn't change too, too much.
Clotworthy said that he felt there was a romance, but even then she certainly CARED for him (whether as a friend or as a comrade) at the least. SC1 has Kerrigan on Char saying "my time has come" so obviously she plans to control the swarm SOMEHOW. Some of the Cerebrates are still alive so you can easily have a civil war. Daggoth's faction see's Kerrigan as an upstart with no right to rule; other cerebrates side with her seeing her as the overmind's successor.

The problem with the UED is that you could have focused more on Kerrigan and Daggoth's power struggle. They kinda kill Daggoth off to focus on the UED and those guys get killed at the end anyway.

WAY WAY WAY Back in 2011 I asked Fanatic Templar how he'd have done BW. He said that Ulrezaj would have been the big bad of the protoss campaign and Kerrigan ingratiates herself with the protoss during this time. Daggoth would be the Zerg primary antagonist and Mengsk the Terran one.

I had the idea that Ulrezaj and Daggoth formed an alliance and Kerrigan and the Protoss are thrown together to fight the unholy union between the two. Kerrigan would be more of an anti hero. Not as sadistic as BW but "anything to get revenge" which culminates in Terran civilization being badly crippled and thrown into Chaos after she wastes Korhal.

Anyway it would have been interesting keeping the Protoss on Aiur; The zerg swarm is broken and Daggoth and Araq (the sole survivors) are forced to retreat.

WOG confirmed Amon was SC2's big bad from the word go (before work even began).
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:52 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Clotworthy said that he felt there was a romance, but even then she certainly CARED for him (whether as a friend or as a comrade) at the least. SC1 has Kerrigan on Char saying "my time has come" so obviously she plans to control the swarm SOMEHOW.
Yes. By retconning it. They had to change it. Either diagetically or nondiagetically and it was just simpler to do it nondiagetically.

I'm not sure what... romance has to do with anything.

Quote:
The problem with the UED is that you could have focused more on Kerrigan and Daggoth's power struggle. They kinda kill Daggoth off to focus on the UED and those guys get killed at the end anyway.
Daggoth wasn't really much of a character anyway.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:14 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Daggoth should've been though, he was the Overminds second and had nearly become a second overmind himself
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Old 04-11-2017, 06:36 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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My headcanon is that "unlocking" the ability to let any psyonic force strong enough control the zerg was a safety measure the Overmind took in case of death. Granted SCI Overmind's didn't seem like the type who thought it could die but SC2 did introduce the suicidal angle thing so it could be an explanation
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:12 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Yes. By retconning it. They had to change it. Either diagetically or nondiagetically and it was just simpler to do it nondiagetically.

I'm not sure what... romance has to do with anything.



Daggoth wasn't really much of a character anyway.
The point was Raynor and Kerrigan cared for each other. Love Comrades whatever a bond was there.

Honestly here's how I would have done Amon

Amon RELISHES the power he has as a xel'naga, but doesn't really care much about the stewardship they have. Basically they're extremely powerful aliens (they wield powerful psychic abilities that would make the most powerful protoss and terran psychic flail like a child); he also doesn't like the idea of stepping down so another race can take over. However he doesn't really like to think about this so he deludes himself into thinking the other races aren't ready (which admittedly was NOT helped by the Aeon of Strife).

Basically he's like Lex author in that while he deludes himself into thinking it's for a noble cause, really he's just a monster on an ego trip.
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Old 04-13-2017, 06:40 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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The point was Raynor and Kerrigan cared for each other. Love Comrades whatever a bond was there.
But what does that have to do with anything? No one said anything about this subject as far as I can tell.

The whole idea of the Xel'Naga being ancient, primordial gods instead of a bunch of random scientists playing god while attempting to achieve perfection has never sat right with me.

The former just feels so much more trite than the latter.

EDIT: I see now you were responding to something that Box said (I got confused because you were quoting me). Never mind. I don't really think that the Jim-Kerrigan connection was made up out of thin air at all, and I could actually easily buy that a romance happened between them during Rebel Yell but they really did take something that was a minor, subtle element in the original game and Brood War and somehow tried to turn StarCraft 2 or at the very least Heart of the Swarm into a love story with a perhaps a bit saccharine love story ending.

I'm not sure that worked. It didn't work for me anyway. As we've established.
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:16 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I was going for the advanced aliens. Basically the xel'naga DID have incredible powers but were mortal too. For instance they needed worldships to travel. They saw themselves as stewards for less developed races, guiding and developing them. Eventually two of the races would come together replace the xel'naga that came before and the process would continue.

Amon however kinda grows attached to his power and doesn't like the idea of letting younger races take his place. So he starts dabbling with the void, recruiting likeminded followers and trying to create hybrids which will take over as stewards....with Amon as the undying god emperor of course. To this end he lowered the shields of the worldships and killed most of his people but was killed in turn. Due to his experience with the void when he perished THAT's where he went. Using his hatred and malice he was able to dominate it and now seeks to return and finish his designs.

Khaedae (Duran's real name) kept the plan running and thwarted some other xel'naga survivors who tried to use the keystone to break Amon's taint (though the keystone itself eluded him).

It keeps the original take while adding a few new bits
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:54 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I'm just not a fan of the whole 'cycle' thing nor do I really like these 'good guy Xel'naga' and 'bad guy Xel'naga' factions.

Based on what we got in SC1 I think what would have been much better is if the Xel'Naga were just a race of planet-hopping scientists attempting to create the perfect species. Deeply spiritual, despite their scientific bent, their book of scripture foretold of a perfect race. One that possesses purity of form and essence in ancient times.

They got wiped out by the Zerg, but the few scientists that remained, swore to finish the work that they had started. So they made Duran or Duran actually was a Xel'Naga who had modified himself.

I think that's so much cleaner of a story without all the cosmic baggage. I just think StarCraft is better the less profound it is, and the more nihilistic it leans.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:18 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I'm just not a fan of the whole 'cycle' thing nor do I really like these 'good guy Xel'naga' and 'bad guy Xel'naga' factions.

Based on what we got in SC1 I think what would have been much better is if the Xel'Naga were just a race of planet-hopping scientists attempting to create the perfect species. Deeply spiritual, despite their scientific bent, their book of scripture foretold of a perfect race. One that possesses purity of form and essence in ancient times.

They got wiped out by the Zerg, but the few scientists that remained, swore to finish the work that they had started. So they made Duran or Duran actually was a Xel'Naga who had modified himself.

I think that's so much cleaner of a story without all the cosmic baggage. I just think StarCraft is better the less profound it is, and the more nihilistic it leans.
There was a mystical element there already (the overmind had to manifest on the place they touched down). And honestly I think nihilistic stories suck. If it's too grim it's impossible to care. Warhammer 40k finally has me reinvested since things are looking up for the good guys (One of their primarch's is back, the eldar god is getting incarnated); now that the forces of "good" (or as good as warhammer can get) have a chance against Chaos it's possible to give a shit again.

SC2's idealistic tone appeals to me in a way. Even though there's loss there's gain. At the end of Heart Humanity has the first truly benevolent ruler in DECADES; in Legacy Amon's gone and the races are coming together.

In any case retconning isn't a bad thing necessarily; certainly the orcs were more interesting when the legion was revealed to be what caused them to become violent and attack azeroth. I also wasn't going to have them as gods per se. They're sufficiently advanced races who see themselves as cultivating life and stewarding younger races into achieving their potential. The "cycle" thing is to ensure that they're still around.

Where Amon comes in is that he doesn't like being replaced and wants to BECOME a god. Perverting it so he can achieve ultimate power.

This is a little odd but my idea was that when Tassadar collided with the overmind their soul's merged and formed a new powerful entity. Eventually it manifested on Aiur. Zeratul wouldn't be led by a prophecy; instead at Zaakul (in a place where the fabric of reality is weak) the dead xel'naga were able to send a message to go to Aiur. From there Tassamind filled him in on key details.

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Old 04-14-2017, 04:58 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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And honestly I think nihilistic stories suck. If it's too grim it's impossible to care.
I don't think you understand what nihilism is then.

Something being nihilistic does not mean that it's grim. The two words aren't even close to synonymous.

Nihilism is the idea that concepts only have power or importance because humans (well in this case sentient beings) give them power and importance not because for metaphysical reasons.

Though, to go off on a bit of a tangent, it always bothers me that it's interpreted when someone says something is 'relative' that somehow means that objectivity doesn't exist or that good and evil are meaningless concepts. Just because something being 'good' or 'bad' is relative doesn't mean constructiveness and destructiveness don't exist. It doesn't mean humanism doesn't exist.

Like, Kerrigan's whole redemption arc in WoL is basically: "The Universe says that Kerrigan will be an instrumental good guy in a big upcoming battle. If you don't try to keep her safe or if you don't like her and support her, then you suck and are wrong and are basically dooming the universe."

In that situation basically every character loses any sort of agency because the metaphysical universe at large is telling them how to feel and how to act.

HotS and LotV sort of tried to develop that a little more, but never really went very far beyond it.

I much prefer something like Grom's redemption story in WC3. Grom was a guy who was ultimately trying to do the right thing, couldn't escape his past, fell on his ass because of his own personal flaws, then when it counted he chose to do the right thing. I just find it a much more personal story. Even with all the demons and the blood addiction and whatever.

Grom's redemption story is entirely based on the fact that Grom himself WANTS to be redeemed. That he wants a better life for himself and his people. That's a more compelling/captivating motivation than the plot deciding it for him.

Kerrigan's redemption story is entirely based on the fact that other people want her to be redeemed. (And that the plot needs her to be redeemed for it to work/make sense)
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Old 04-14-2017, 05:44 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Kerrigan deinfestation was done others. Her redemption is her own

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