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  #3901  
Old 03-11-2014, 08:18 PM
Dithon1 Dithon1 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Serious Question:

After this is all said and done, however it turns out, will the Ukraine think about joining NATO or pray that Putin doesn't get anymore grabby?
Depends on who "wins."
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  #3902  
Old 03-11-2014, 08:24 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Serious Question:

After this is all said and done, however it turns out, will the Ukraine think about joining NATO or pray that Putin doesn't get anymore grabby?
Ukraine was going to join NATO, along with Georgia. However, at the 2008 Bucharest summit, this was blocked by France, Germany and Britain, not wanting to "upset" Russia any further, after the previous gas cut-off issues. Putin, who was present at the NATO summit, "applauded" their decision. In a few months, he promptly invaded Georgia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7328276.stm

Last edited by Eagan; 03-11-2014 at 08:45 PM..
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  #3903  
Old 03-11-2014, 08:34 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Is it safe to say people are trying to 'appease' Russia?
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  #3904  
Old 03-11-2014, 08:44 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Is it safe to say people are trying to 'appease' Russia?
Trying to avoid war is not the same as appeasement.
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  #3905  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:43 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Appeasement can lead to war.
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  #3906  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:44 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
Trying to avoid war is not the same as appeasement.
Appeasement is a method of trying to avoid war.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #3907  
Old 03-11-2014, 10:00 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Neither of what you guys said conflict with my statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragemantle View Post
Appeasement can lead to war.
This is true. Good thing the United States isn't appeasing Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Appeasement is a method of trying to avoid war.
Appeasement is a subset of avoiding war, just like squares are subsets of rectangles. Still doesn't mean squares=rectangles.
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  #3908  
Old 03-11-2014, 10:01 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
Appeasement is a subset of avoiding war, just like squares are subsets of rectangles. Still doesn't mean squares=rectangles.
I am not contradicting this observation.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #3909  
Old 03-11-2014, 10:03 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I am not contradicting this observation.
Then all is well.
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  #3910  
Old 03-11-2014, 11:13 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Or perhaps "appeasement" is a loaded political term that has no practical usage at all?
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  #3911  
Old 03-13-2014, 10:50 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Interesting.... to get inside the mind of Putin.

Evidently, his view is that the independence of Ukraine after 1991 wasn't legal therefore the Ukraine is still part of Russia and his to do as he pleases...

http://www.unian.net/politics/895754...m-zakonno.html
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  #3912  
Old 03-13-2014, 03:37 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragemantle View Post
Appeasement can lead to war.
They took Georgia and the world didn't do anything. Now they are trying to annex Ukraine/Crimea. Some people say "Let them." Russia is essentially being rewarded for this kind of behavior. It would be a surprise if he stopped because people wrote him angry letters. You don't have to start a war to show him that you are prepared for one. The best way to avoid war is to show that it isn't going to be worthwhile. You can't just waltz in and take what you want because no one will stand up to you. Being ill-prepared for war just means casualties will be a lot higher when it does happen.

Sanctions are a tool but I am not sure how much US sanctions would affect Russia. They don't seem to be too worried about them.
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  #3913  
Old 03-13-2014, 04:48 PM
Dithon1 Dithon1 is offline

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A report on Ukraine's current military capability:


http://en.ria.ru/world/20140313/1883...-of-Armed.html

TL;DR: Ukraine's pretty fucked.
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  #3914  
Old 03-13-2014, 04:53 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Sad about that, but I'm not surprised.

The real question is... Would UK and US protect Ukraine in the scenario of Russia annexing/invading eastern Ukraine? Would they respect the treaties they signed long ago?
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  #3915  
Old 03-13-2014, 04:55 PM
Dithon1 Dithon1 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Sad about that, but I'm not surprised.

The real question is... Would UK and US protect Ukraine in the scenario of Russia annexing/invading eastern Ukraine? Would they respect the treaties they signed long ago?
Eh, looking at it again, said treaty gives us a casus beli against Russia, but we aren't forced into war unless Russia uses nukes, although even the threat of a nuclear attack by Russia would no doubt be enough to roust NATO.


But if something happens between Poland and Russia, then it's on, and Ukraine will no doubt be the battlefield.
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  #3916  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:04 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Sad about that, but I'm not surprised.

The real question is... Would UK and US protect Ukraine in the scenario of Russia annexing/invading eastern Ukraine? Would they respect the treaties they signed long ago?
It all depends on how you read those treaties...

http://www.cfr.org/arms-control-disa...es-1994/p32484

Quote:
reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used
That's the kicker, in case anything such as an act of aggression or if nuclear weapons are used, then all they are going to do is go to the UNSC and talk about it and provide assistance. But that's it. It's up to the UNSC to do something. And who is on the UNSC?

Permanent members:
China
France
Russia
UK
USA

Non-permanent members: (until 31 Dec 2014)
Argentina
Australia
Rwanda
Luxembourg
South Korea


Which is probably why, the Russian troops aren't wearing anything to identify themselves as Russian. It's not an act of aggression if nobody can prove that it's your military that is doing the aggression, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dithon1 View Post
Eh, looking at it again, said treaty gives us a casus beli against Russia, but we aren't forced into war unless Russia uses nukes, although even the threat of a nuclear attack by Russia would no doubt be enough to roust NATO.


But if something happens between Poland and Russia, then it's on, and Ukraine will no doubt be the battlefield.
Or any of the Baltic states:

And looky here....

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...29332129542004

The Russian Ambassador is making it easier for Russians in Latvia to obtain Russian citizenship in order to “save the Latvian noncitizens out of poverty by giving them citizenship and a pension without having to stay in Russia."

http://www.menafn.com/1093783240/Bal...ictable-Russia
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  #3917  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:09 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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So hey question. Is the EU the reason why Europe's economy is bad?
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  #3918  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:10 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
So hey question. Is the EU the reason why Europe's economy is bad?
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  #3919  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:11 PM
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Is it bad? I don't know, there are so many countries in the EU/Europe...
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  #3920  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:14 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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I thought that the EU was just Germany.

Seems like whenever any country get's into financial trouble, it's the Germans that they go crying to asking for a bailout.
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  #3921  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:15 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
I thought that the EU was just Germany.

Seems like whenever any country get's into financial trouble, it's the Germans that they go crying to asking for a bailout.
Germany has the biggest economy so maybe some of them feel entitled to German money.
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  #3922  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:15 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
So hey question. Is the EU the reason why Europe's economy is bad?
Depends on who you ask, it's the EU, germany, the mediterranean countries, the left, the right and/or the fiscal irresponsibility of dem foul yankees with their housing market.
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  #3923  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:18 PM
Dithon1 Dithon1 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
So hey question. Is the EU the reason why Europe's economy is bad?


Also: In b4 Hammerbrew.
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  #3924  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:18 PM
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I'll repeat my last statement, you'd have to specify a country.
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  #3925  
Old 03-13-2014, 05:19 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
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I'll repeat my last statement, you'd have to specify a country.
United Kingdom and France?
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