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  #23851  
Old 08-22-2016, 08:44 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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The Serbs had rape camps. As in camps specifically for women to be raped at.

Milosevic refused to turn over war criminals while the bosnians did. I'm not denying the Bosnians committed crimes. The problem is that the serbs inflicted more. They may have been expelled unfairly but at the same time they also inflicted a lot more misery. The Serbians weren't as bad as Attilla the Hun but no. They weren't innocent.
Pfft, and I am angry we sent even one of our people to that kangaroo court. If guilty they should have been tried at home. To show how much a kangaroo court it is take this fact:" ICTY sentenced Serbs and ethnic Serbs to a combined total of 1150 years in prison while claiming that members of other ethnic groups have been sentenced to a total of 55 years for crimes against Serbs." Even without looking into things, and you obviously should, one can see the extremely implausible disparity there and see that something is rotten there. Couple with that how virtually all high profile Croatian and Bosnian war figures were set free, minimally punished or not even indicted while all Serbian ones were and most got a lot of jail time.

As for the other thing, all sorts of crimes were committed on all sides. I know of a story of a Serbian woman from Sarajevo who was kidnapped by her muslim neighbour and brought to a small shed where several other Serbian women were held and raped. Is that a rape camp? Yes, but I very much doubt it was planned by any higher up or is proof of any intentional criminal undertaking, and same goes for any such camps on our side if they existed. Again, lots of crimes happened, all I ask of people is to look into the outcome of the war. It clearly shows who were the true victims. My country and our entire people took so big a hit I am unsure if we will ever recover. If Serbia collapses or is torn up by our loving neighbours I would not at all be surprised, and the fault lies with the west and morons like you Yoggi who blindly supported this.

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  #23852  
Old 08-22-2016, 09:55 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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So Nonane is a Serb and Yoggy is a Muslim, if I understand correctly?
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  #23853  
Old 08-22-2016, 01:33 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Again, lots of crimes happened, all I ask of people is to look into the outcome of the war. It clearly shows who were the true victims. My country and our entire people took so big a hit I am unsure if we will ever recover. If Serbia collapses or is torn up by our loving neighbours I would not at all be surprised, and the fault lies with the west and morons like you Yoggi who blindly supported this.
All of this.
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  #23854  
Old 08-22-2016, 02:51 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Pfft, and I am angry we sent even one of our people to that kangaroo court. If guilty they should have been tried at home. To show how much a kangaroo court it is take this fact:" ICTY sentenced Serbs and ethnic Serbs to a combined total of 1150 years in prison while claiming that members of other ethnic groups have been sentenced to a total of 55 years for crimes against Serbs." Even without looking into things, and you obviously should, one can see the extremely implausible disparity there and see that something is rotten there. Couple with that how virtually all high profile Croatian and Bosnian war figures were set free, minimally punished or not even indicted while all Serbian ones were and most got a lot of jail time.

As for the other thing, all sorts of crimes were committed on all sides. I know of a story of a Serbian woman from Sarajevo who was kidnapped by her muslim neighbour and brought to a small shed where several other Serbian women were held and raped. Is that a rape camp? Yes, but I very much doubt it was planned by any higher up or is proof of any intentional criminal undertaking, and same goes for any such camps on our side if they existed. Again, lots of crimes happened, all I ask of people is to look into the outcome of the war. It clearly shows who were the true victims. My country and our entire people took so big a hit I am unsure if we will ever recover. If Serbia collapses or is torn up by our loving neighbours I would not at all be surprised, and the fault lies with the west and morons like you Yoggi who blindly supported this.
I'm sorry that happened to that woman. And yes the ICC was unfairly biased based on the bosnian war criminals getting lighter sentences. The problem is that there are serbs claiming they did nothing at all or that the bosnians and croats deserved it. There are people who deny Srebrenica happened or say that the people who died deserved it, just because they were were muslims. That's pretty depraved logic and the Bosnians never committed a massacre as large scale as Srebrenica. I'm not a muslim. I'm simply annoyed that a lot of people are justifying violence against them.

Shitheads like Robert Spencer and Pam Gellar have openly praised Ratko Mladic and Radozan Karedjic because the people who died at their hands were muslims. It's like saying that muslims were justified in killing christians in Nigeria or Darfur. Completely inexcusable.

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  #23855  
Old 08-22-2016, 07:43 PM
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I think few people here and abroad would deny Srebrenica happened. Numbers can be debated and who exactly got killed and why (the counterargument says the "safe zone" was being used by muslim soldiers to recuperate, violating the DMZ and Srebrenica was a reprisal for an earlier, massive muslim attack). The mood here is more in line of, massacres happened on all sides, the dead are in the hundreds of thousands, our people too got killed for ethnic reasons, and lets not even get into who got "ethnically cleansed" more, so why is the few thousand in Srebrenica any different? If the attacks and crimes against us (one major one lead to Srebrenica) are not genocide, why is this genocide? It just makes everyone angry and opens old wounds.

That's another thing, this recent western push to classify Srebrenica as genocide and morbidly put it on a pedestal as if it was the only such massacre is only causing hatred. Not just opening old wounds, getting new generations embroiled in the hate (which I bet suits NATO interests just fine, divide et impera). Several years ago no one thought much about Srebrenica but now people are either angry that we are being unfairly singled out and impressionable young fools lap up the accusations in full except they see it as a good thing, glorifying the massacre and taking in the hate. The muslims are of course riled up this as well, Republika Srprska is under pressure by the muslim majority with western backing, but now with Russian backing they are starting to resist, tensions are getting back up to post-war levels. And Croatia... that's a whole different story.
And the International Criminal Tribunal has not helped bring reconciliation at all either. All sides no matter how light or harshly they were judged feel slighted and angry, people keep going over those events, again new generations take on the hate. I don't see how this helps the stability of the region or chances for longterm peace, so I do have to wonder what the agenda here is.

Now Croatia is a topic I wanted to broach for some time and now seems good. Things over there are becoming intolerable. The few Serbs who remain or who have returned are being scapegoated for all sorts of silly things by the right wing elements. And in Croatia you don't really have left wing elements. Drumming up hate for Serbs to get votes is an old tactic there but this new government has taken it to an extreme degree. They venerate the monstrous Ustase regime, go plant flowers on their graves and try to present them as equally tragic as their many victims (while trying to sideline said victims). Recently some fascist figures from that time have been publicly exonerated and the government officials attend various legit neonazi gatherings. This has put the public in an anti-Serb frenzy and again this radicalizes young people. And in case this sounds familiar to another historic period when you hear that a list of Serbian owned shops and their owners has been published in one town with a call for boycott and vandalism... the whole story enters the realm of surrealism.
The West and the EU don't seem to terribly mind these developments, curiously enough.

Though not to be outdone our own ruling party capitalized on those disturbing developments from Croatia to harness the anger for political support. The elites of both countries manipulate the people to stay in power, I just hope the hate they beget doesn't get out of their control.

All of this has me scared for the future. What will happen when the pacifying foreign influence looses grasp over this area. Or if the Russian influence weakens again like it did during the 90s.
You have literal Croatian fascists eyeing parts of Vojvodina and Bosnia. Riled up muslims. Albanian dreams of a Greater Albania (which entails taking more of Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro). And some Serbs feel we have lost lands and people to other countries, whatever the case if shit starts up in the Balkans we are bound to be in it. What's worse NATO has strategically drawn our natural allies, Macedonia and Montenegro away from us. We are very isolated and vulnerable. Is this foreign design, our own shortcomings, bad luck... little bit of everything? I don't know but I am deeply concerned, and people like Yoggi who buy into the propaganda put us and the whole region in danger because it makes the looming danger seem unavoidable, even somewhat justified in international eyes.
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  #23856  
Old 08-23-2016, 12:08 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I think few people here and abroad would deny Srebrenica happened. Numbers can be debated and who exactly got killed and why (the counterargument says the "safe zone" was being used by muslim soldiers to recuperate, violating the DMZ and Srebrenica was a reprisal for an earlier, massive muslim attack). The mood here is more in line of, massacres happened on all sides, the dead are in the hundreds of thousands, our people too got killed for ethnic reasons, and lets not even get into who got "ethnically cleansed" more, so why is the few thousand in Srebrenica any different? If the attacks and crimes against us (one major one lead to Srebrenica) are not genocide, why is this genocide? It just makes everyone angry and opens old wounds.

That's another thing, this recent western push to classify Srebrenica as genocide and morbidly put it on a pedestal as if it was the only such massacre is only causing hatred. Not just opening old wounds, getting new generations embroiled in the hate (which I bet suits NATO interests just fine, divide et impera). Several years ago no one thought much about Srebrenica but now people are either angry that we are being unfairly singled out and impressionable young fools lap up the accusations in full except they see it as a good thing, glorifying the massacre and taking in the hate. The muslims are of course riled up this as well, Republika Srprska is under pressure by the muslim majority with western backing, but now with Russian backing they are starting to resist, tensions are getting back up to post-war levels. And Croatia... that's a whole different story.
And the International Criminal Tribunal has not helped bring reconciliation at all either. All sides no matter how light or harshly they were judged feel slighted and angry, people keep going over those events, again new generations take on the hate. I don't see how this helps the stability of the region or chances for longterm peace, so I do have to wonder what the agenda here is.

Now Croatia is a topic I wanted to broach for some time and now seems good. Things over there are becoming intolerable. The few Serbs who remain or who have returned are being scapegoated for all sorts of silly things by the right wing elements. And in Croatia you don't really have left wing elements. Drumming up hate for Serbs to get votes is an old tactic there but this new government has taken it to an extreme degree. They venerate the monstrous Ustase regime, go plant flowers on their graves and try to present them as equally tragic as their many victims (while trying to sideline said victims). Recently some fascist figures from that time have been publicly exonerated and the government officials attend various legit neonazi gatherings. This has put the public in an anti-Serb frenzy and again this radicalizes young people. And in case this sounds familiar to another historic period when you hear that a list of Serbian owned shops and their owners has been published in one town with a call for boycott and vandalism... the whole story enters the realm of surrealism.
The West and the EU don't seem to terribly mind these developments, curiously enough.

Though not to be outdone our own ruling party capitalized on those disturbing developments from Croatia to harness the anger for political support. The elites of both countries manipulate the people to stay in power, I just hope the hate they beget doesn't get out of their control.

All of this has me scared for the future. What will happen when the pacifying foreign influence looses grasp over this area. Or if the Russian influence weakens again like it did during the 90s.
You have literal Croatian fascists eyeing parts of Vojvodina and Bosnia. Riled up muslims. Albanian dreams of a Greater Albania (which entails taking more of Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro). And some Serbs feel we have lost lands and people to other countries, whatever the case if shit starts up in the Balkans we are bound to be in it. What's worse NATO has strategically drawn our natural allies, Macedonia and Montenegro away from us. We are very isolated and vulnerable. Is this foreign design, our own shortcomings, bad luck... little bit of everything? I don't know but I am deeply concerned, and people like Yoggi who buy into the propaganda put us and the whole region in danger because it makes the looming danger seem unavoidable, even somewhat justified in international eyes.
In sheer numbers srebrenica was the largest massacre. The Serbs also had dreams of conquest st like the bosnians or Croats; part of it is that the kla were inept until the west entered. All sides were genocidal the Serbs happened to get the upper hand. But milosevic mladic and karazjic were monsters too.

And you'd be surprised. Quite a few in the west have tried to downplay srebrenica (gani here is one). Robert spencer and pam gellar do too ;
(they're invested in the "Muslims are only evil demons" myth so mass slaughter of Muslims kinda kiboshs it.)

8000 people getting murdered is a big deal
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  #23857  
Old 08-23-2016, 01:53 AM
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One death is a tragedy. A million deaths are statistics.

Who cares what side scored the most dishonorable kills?
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  #23858  
Old 08-23-2016, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
In sheer numbers srebrenica was the largest massacre. The Serbs also had dreams of conquest st like the bosnians or Croats; part of it is that the kla were inept until the west entered. All sides were genocidal the Serbs happened to get the upper hand. But milosevic mladic and karazjic were monsters too.

And you'd be surprised. Quite a few in the west have tried to downplay srebrenica (gani here is one). Robert spencer and pam gellar do too ;
(they're invested in the "Muslims are only evil demons" myth so mass slaughter of Muslims kinda kiboshs it.)

8000 people getting murdered is a big deal
Why don't you think of the Serbian civilians the same way you think of non-Jihadist Muslims?
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  #23859  
Old 08-23-2016, 02:53 AM
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I'll never understand the nationalistic tendency to stick one's head in the sand and loudly declare that "My state/ethnic group didn't do that horrible thing!" You see it with the Serbs about the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Japanese about the comfort women, the Turks about the Armenian genocide.


Then again, maybe this is because the American perspective on the long list of terrible shit we've done to people is usually best summed up as "Yeah, we did it. What're you gonna do about it? Nothing, we're the fucking U S of A." Whenever someone points out we raped, murdered and concentrated our native Americans or we overthrew democratic governments in South America, we just shrug our shoulders because we know we're the top fucking dogs and don't need to bark to prove ourselves, not when your people are buying our blue jeans and listening to our pop music.
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  #23860  
Old 08-23-2016, 02:59 AM
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But the Injuns raped, murdered, and genocided each-other. And a significant amount of the population falls were thanks to plagues
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Old 08-23-2016, 03:08 AM
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But the Injuns raped, murdered, and genocided each-other. And a significant amount of the population falls were thanks to plagues
We also displaced, killed and swindled a lot of them too.

We don't care. We're America.
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  #23862  
Old 08-23-2016, 10:34 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I'll never understand the nationalistic tendency to stick one's head in the sand and loudly declare that "My state/ethnic group didn't do that horrible thing!" You see it with the Serbs about the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Japanese about the comfort women, the Turks about the Armenian genocide.


Then again, maybe this is because the American perspective on the long list of terrible shit we've done to people is usually best summed up as "Yeah, we did it. What're you gonna do about it? Nothing, we're the fucking U S of A." Whenever someone points out we raped, murdered and concentrated our native Americans or we overthrew democratic governments in South America, we just shrug our shoulders because we know we're the top fucking dogs and don't need to bark to prove ourselves, not when your people are buying our blue jeans and listening to our pop music.
In many countries, major wars (particularly defeats) have cultural repercussions that last for centuries or longer. People remember the losses, which turn into resentment, usually against the ethnicity or religion that inflicted it.

America has historical amnesia. We really just don't give a shit, even when it comes to losses, and I'm honestly okay with that. There's no point in stewing in rage over failing to beat the Communist Vietnamese; much smarter to shrug our shoulders and extend the hand of friendship (which Vietnam has also been doing, because of China).

The UK and Canada burned down the White House. Now they're pretty much our best friends.

The only exception to this is the Civil War.
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  #23863  
Old 08-23-2016, 10:44 AM
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The only exception to this is the Civil War.
I would argue that the Civil War represents amnesia of a different sort. The real causes, nature, and aftermath of the war was forgotten by the various sides due to the (oft-romanticized) narratives that replaced them.
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  #23864  
Old 08-23-2016, 10:59 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I would argue that the Civil War represents amnesia of a different sort. The real causes, nature, and aftermath of the war was forgotten by the various sides due to the (oft-romanticized) narratives that replaced them.
There's some truth to that. However, it's the only war in American history where there's still a lingering sense of grievance. We had some of that with the Vietnam War, but it's largely faded from the public consciousness.
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  #23865  
Old 08-23-2016, 11:00 AM
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In many countries, major wars (particularly defeats) have cultural repercussions that last for centuries or longer. People remember the losses, which turn into resentment, usually against the ethnicity or religion that inflicted it.

America has historical amnesia. We really just don't give a shit, even when it comes to losses, and I'm honestly okay with that. There's no point in stewing in rage over failing to beat the Communist Vietnamese; much smarter to shrug our shoulders and extend the hand of friendship (which Vietnam has also been doing, because of China).

The UK and Canada burned down the White House. Now they're pretty much our best friends.

The only exception to this is the Civil War.

A lot of Americans are just incredibly ignorant about history too.
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  #23866  
Old 08-23-2016, 11:04 AM
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There's some truth to that. However, it's the only war in American history where there's still a lingering sense of grievance. We had some of that with the Vietnam War, but it's largely faded from the public consciousness.
True. The effects reverberated into our politics and culture. I often wonder how the U.S. would have fared had slavery been nipped at the outset our country.
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  #23867  
Old 08-23-2016, 11:09 AM
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America is a young country and isn't surrounded by dozens of neighbors with conflicting ideals.
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  #23868  
Old 08-23-2016, 11:17 AM
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America is a young country and isn't surrounded by dozens of neighbors with conflicting ideals.
Just composed of fifty states with conflicting ideals who were thankfully federally united as a result of a whiskey tax.
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  #23869  
Old 08-23-2016, 11:23 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I'll never understand the nationalistic tendency to stick one's head in the sand and loudly declare that "My state/ethnic group didn't do that horrible thing!" You see it with the Serbs about the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Japanese about the comfort women, the Turks about the Armenian genocide.

Then again, maybe this is because the American perspective on the long list of terrible shit we've done to people is usually best summed up as "Yeah, we did it. What're you gonna do about it? Nothing, we're the fucking U S of A." Whenever someone points out we raped, murdered and concentrated our native Americans or we overthrew democratic governments in South America, we just shrug our shoulders because we know we're the top fucking dogs and don't need to bark to prove ourselves, not when your people are buying our blue jeans and listening to our pop music.
As I've said, few people here would deny we did bad things too, just that so did others and they got away with it. And indeed it would be hard to deny when our subservient government is the only one stupid enough to apologize about things. Not that apologizing is wrong but apologizing to those who are unrepentant just fuels their persecution delusions and makes us seem guilty, and weak.

The rest of your post is just saddening. I kinda want to believe you are joking because I honestly held you in higher regard than the "neener neener" mindset.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:38 PM
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America is a young country and isn't surrounded by dozens of neighbors with conflicting ideals.
It's this, but it's also a lot more.

The US has never been conquered. Conquest traumatizes the civilization that suffers it, since the process completely destroys their cultural confidence. Their armies, their gods, their wealth... all of that failed to save them.

Even if the civilization frees itself, the lingering doubt remains. They know it could happen again. Someone has to be blamed—that might be the former conquerors (which is valid), a particular system, or even a smaller group that makes for a convenient scapegoat. The civilization now exists in opposition against those elements, and defines itself (at least partially) by this opposition.

Further, the US is a settler state. Plenty of history obviously occurred in North America prior to colonization, but it appears to be a blank slate from the US perspective. This liberated the US from the weight of history. Most who came here did so trying to escape the past. Their eyes were on the future.

Native Americans obviously have a different perspective on this. So do many African-Americans. However, neither group can fully counteract the main narrative.

Most of the Latin American countries were not settler states (Chile, Uruguay, and Argentina are, I think, exceptions to this). Instead, you had European aristocracy and clerisy ruling over large indigenous and mixed populations. The process of "conquest" continued, as even the liberators tended to come from the upper echelons. They could not escape history in the way the United States did.

The closest thing to a conquest narrative is the Civil War, in which the North defeated the South. You do see some of these historical grievances in the South. Once again, it's not enough to counteract the main narrative. The counter-narratives also have some reason to feel investment in the main narrative—relatively few African-Americans or white southerners advocate separation.

The situation with Native Americans is somewhat different due to the reservation system (which, IMO, has not necessarily served them well).

The US' sheer size makes it unlikely to be ever be conquered. What's more likely is some kind of internal collapse, which might result in different squabbling regional factions. If this goes on long enough (and it doesn't need o be long), the US will become a prisoner to history.
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  #23871  
Old 08-23-2016, 12:43 PM
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The US' sheer size makes it unlikely to be ever be conquered.
...

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  #23872  
Old 08-23-2016, 01:38 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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It's this, but it's also a lot more.

The US has never been conquered.
Didn't Canada conquer the White House twice during the war of 1812?
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Old 08-23-2016, 01:56 PM
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Didn't Canada conquer the White House twice during the war of 1812?
I don't think you know what the word "conquer" means. They captured DC and burned the white house, but Canada (or their British masters) never exercised control over America and they were quickly routed. Since its inception, the US has only ever had one ruler; itself. The same cannot be said for almost every other state in the world (compare that to say, Norman England, Vichy France or the American occupation of Japan)
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:07 PM
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France was backstabbed by UK in 1940.
All French people were resistants.
Napoleon did nothing wrong.


Am I in the spirit of the thread ?
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  #23875  
Old 08-23-2016, 02:10 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
France was backstabbed by UK in 1940.
All French people were resistants.
Napoleon did nothing wrong.

Am I in the spirit of the thread ?
Merci.
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