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  #76  
Old 01-17-2013, 09:58 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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I actually thought the artifact was fine because

If you get right down to it, it's basically the brood war artifact, only smaller, more portable, and combined with the serum in resserection that they used on Stukov. There was precedence, and I also felt that any "kerrigan villain scenarios" would be contrived, stupid, and repetitive, that the DV twist actually clears up some confusing stuff.

Somewhat harsher, I actually feel that many of the people complaining were too stupid to get what was happening, and or bitched because blizzard didn't go along with what they wanted (sort of like how some jackasses complain about illidan and kael being villains even though the seeds were well established in frozen throne if you cared to look.)
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:03 PM
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I also felt that any "kerrigan villain scenarios" would be contrived, stupid, and repetitive,
That's kind of baffling, seeing that Kerrigan being the big villain of the Koprulu sector was exactly what Brood War set up.
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  #78  
Old 01-17-2013, 10:08 PM
swapnil999 swapnil999 is offline

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Really? I didn't know that.

What a fucked up means of reproduction.
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  #79  
Old 01-18-2013, 01:27 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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After watching Dark Origins I got the impression that whoever Duran's master was would be the primary antagonist.

Kerrigan couldn't manipulate everyone into an alliance, they know she's untrustworthy, and the fact that she only choose to take a break after Jim called her out implies that the comment did actually effect her. There were hints (Really tiny admittedly) that maybe redemption was possible. I personally found it hard to view Kerrigan as anything but a Complete Monster while infested during Omega


Also, I felt that the bulk of what many people wanted was a grimdark story worthy of warcraft where bad event after bad event happens. I'd do Warhammer if I was interested in that shit.

Why the hell can't a fallen hero achieve redemption for their past; why can't Jim finally overcome his issues? Why can't there be a solid victory even if there is a lot of casualties rather than the standard hollow victory? Having it just be dark dark dark dark dark dark dark is stupid, unrealistic, and boring. and we've already seen Kerrigan the evil overlord. Kerrigan the conflicted and violent anti hero torn between the desire to exact their revenge and achieve atonement for their past is a story that I personally find a lot more interesting.

Kerrigan in WOL was a perfectly natural continuation of her arc (she just used a different style of taunting.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:27 PM
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After watching Dark Origins I got the impression that whoever Duran's master was would be the primary antagonist.
Obviously, I expected Duran and his mysterious masters to play a substantial role, but I expected them to be working in the background while Kerrigan did her hubris thing.

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Also, I felt that the bulk of what many people wanted was a grimdark story worthy of warcraft where bad event after bad event happens. I'd do Warhammer if I was interested in that shit.
What I wanted was a grim story where bad things happen to good people and honest mistakes have massive repercussions. A story where characterization is nuanced and the line between good and evil isn't always immediately clear. A story where the good guys are always three steps behind the villains. A story where a lot is happening all at once, and I am to be placed in control of one perspective as the sector erupts once again into war. You know, like the original Starcraft.

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Why the hell can't a fallen hero achieve redemption for their past?
Nobody says one can't, but Kerrigan was not in a position where such an arc made sense or would grant any emotional resolution. She was on top of the world, self-proclaimed queen bitch of the universe. She was a fantastic villain. A character with whom we could identify, having seen her as the idealistic rebel super-soldier, as the increasingly skeptical right hand of a charismatic despot, as a nascent god of biological enhancement, as duplicitous ally in the wake of Aiur, and finally as the ruthless, cruel, monstrous, powerful but ultimately still human Queen of Blades.

She would have made a great antagonist, if Blizzard hadn't turned her into a melodramatic moron and then reset her entire character arc in WoL.

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why can't Jim finally overcome his issues?
That would have been fine. But we didn't get to see Raynor get over his issues. Instead, we got Raynor moping vaguely about how Kerrigan's changed. Then, he gets over it. No reference to the promise that he made to be the one who was going to kill her. No reference to how Kerrigan actively betrayed him in Brood War. No logical arc from self-loathing to forgiveness.

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Why can't there be a solid victory even if there is a lot of casualties rather than the standard hollow victory?
A solid victory would be good, but what we got was a damn Deus Ex Machina. We besieged the Koprulu Zerg hiveworld, for fuck's sake, and not only escaped with our lives, but captured and purified the current Overmind. That's insane by the standards of the setting. Last time around, we were fighting on our own turf and we still only managed it because Tassadar was hero enough to psionically translate his physical body and the structure of his capital ship into raw power. Even at that, we still had to evacuate the planet.

That was on Aiur. With the combined strength of the Khalite Protoss. Now Blizzard tells us Raynor's Raiders and half a Dominion fleet managed to take Char?!

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Having it just be dark dark dark dark dark dark dark is stupid, unrealistic, and boring.
You exaggerate my grievance. I don't want it to be a string of constant setbacks. But I want actual setbacks to happen. I want the impression we got in Starcraft and Brood War that those who fight for what is good don't always win. That at the end of the day, greed and fear and racism are stronger than justice and peace. I wanted characters like Mengsk and Artanis. I hoped for some complexity.

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and we've already seen Kerrigan the evil overlord. Kerrigan the conflicted and violent anti hero torn between the desire to exact their revenge and achieve atonement for their past is a story that I personally find a lot more interesting.
What do you mean we've 'already' seen Kerrigan as the evil overlord? That was her character! The whole plot of Brood War demonstrated that the 'evil' in Kerrigan was more than just mind control. It's who she was. Even after the Overmind released her, she strove to dominate and destroy. Why the hell should that change? Why should she seek redemption? Why should Raynor seek redemption for her? Why are we even talking about the possibility of redemption?

Because of a stupid fucking bullshit plot device which magically turned Kerrigan into a better person. God knows how. Brood War, as I said, demonstrated that Kerrigan is evil by choice. What we've been given is a character derailment justified by a sloppy deus ex machina.
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  #81  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:43 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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For simplicity's sake I'm going to bold your quotations

1.) Maybe that's your take; I saw the hybrids as the big bad rather than Kerrigan



2.) "What I wanted was a grim story where bad things happen to good people and honest mistakes have massive repercussions. A story where characterization is nuanced and the line between good and evil isn't always immediately clear. A story where the good guys are always three steps behind the villains. A story where a lot is happening all at once, and I am to be placed in control of one perspective as the sector erupts once again into war. You know, like the original Starcraft."


First off, a story can be grim and have an ending where the heroes loose as much as they gain, and the villains gain as much as they loose. Secondly, WOL is more of "ray of light piercing the clouds." Raynor was still forced to shoot his friend, Mengsk is still in power, and the Dark Voice is still lurking in the shadows waiting to usher in the apocalypse. The greatest victory is the fact that now they have a chance of saving the universe from the flames rather than being 100% fucked.
Finally, have you actually seen the Heart of the Swarm Trailer? Kerrigan is a violent anti hero at BEST! Yeah she feels some guilt for her crimes but she also has a "do whatever it takes to exact my vengeance" thing going on as well."

3.) Nobody says one can't, but Kerrigan was not in a position where such an arc made sense or would grant any emotional resolution. She was on top of the world, self-proclaimed queen bitch of the universe. She was a fantastic villain. A character with whom we could identify, having seen her as the idealistic rebel super-soldier, as the increasingly skeptical right hand of a charismatic despot, as a nascent god of biological enhancement, as duplicitous ally in the wake of Aiur, and finally as the ruthless, cruel, monstrous, powerful but ultimately still human Queen of Blades.

She would have made a great antagonist, if Blizzard hadn't turned her into a melodramatic moron and then reset her entire character arc in WoL.
Personally, I felt that her performance in WOL was actually a naturally extension off brood war. She can't manipulate people, and her style of taunting is actually fairly effective in the "Keep it short keep it scary" sense. It can also show just how little she regards her foes; she only starts talking when it becomes apparent that she might actually loose.

Also, I saw her character arc as more as the idealistic rebel super-soldier, as the increasingly skeptical right hand of a charismatic despot, as a nascent god of biological enhancement, as duplicitous ally in the wake of Aiur, and finally as the ruthless, cruel, monstrous, powerful Queen of Blades with barely any humanity left." If anything Blizzard's plans involve her becoming "the violently conflicted anti hero torn between her human side, zerg nature, and conflicting emotions of love and hatred" to developing into the Violent but still relatively noble messiah figure. In Warcraft 3, Grom Hellscream is brought back to the good guys after most of the dark energy is purged from his body, but he doesn't actually redeem himself until he makes the consious decision to reject Mannorath's final offer and take the bastard down. If they do that with Kerrigan than the arc could not only make sense, but offer closure.

4.) That would have been fine. But we didn't get to see Raynor get over his issues. Instead, we got Raynor moping vaguely about how Kerrigan's changed. Then, he gets over it. No reference to the promise that he made to be the one who was going to kill her. No reference to how Kerrigan actively betrayed him in Brood War. No logical arc from self-loathing to forgiveness.


While the nonlinear storytelling was confusing, I actually did see him work through his arc. Each of the missions covers one of his personal demons (the colonists his guilt for failing to save Kerrigan, the horner and tosh missions his belief that he can't make a difference, the prophecy his hatred for Kerrigan).....finally there's char. Given that every one of the Queen of blade's atrocities occured because he failed to save Sarah before she was infested, he has every reason to view Tarsonis as his greatest failure. Valerian's giving him the chance to undo the worst mistake of his life, thereby allowing him to finally forgive himself for the deaths he indirectly caused. Also, even if Valerian is a snake, the Zerg swarm will be broken and BILLIONS will be saved. As such, he can still make a difference. and Blizzcon confirmed that Raynor actually is still haunted by Fenix's death.

5.) A solid victory would be good, but what we got was a damn Deus Ex Machina. We besieged the Koprulu Zerg hiveworld, for fuck's sake, and not only escaped with our lives, but captured and purified the current Overmind. That's insane by the standards of the setting. Last time around, we were fighting on our own turf and we still only managed it because Tassadar was hero enough to psionically translate his physical body and the structure of his capital ship into raw power. Even at that, we still had to evacuate the planet.

That was on Aiur. With the combined strength of the Khalite Protoss. Now Blizzard tells us Raynor's Raiders and half a Dominion fleet managed to take Char?!


They actually did answer that. Most of Kerrigan's forces were off world; the press info for heart of the swarm says that most of the swarm was en route back to Char when the artifact deinfested her. Since they were the only ones around, they turned on each other. Even then it was a pretty close thing; in gates of hell Raynor rallying the soldiers is what keeps the invasion from collapsing from the beginning, and the artifact is the only reason they survived Kerrigan's onslaught in All In. Also, idiotic Flashpoint numbers aside, it was meant to be half of the ENTIRE DOMINION NAVY attacking Char. And the Terran Dominion and Raynor's Raiders managed to put their disputes aside early on; something the conclave was too stupid to do (if they did so earlier they wouldn't have been as badly hit.

6.) You exaggerate my grievance. I don't want it to be a string of constant setbacks. But I want actual setbacks to happen. I want the impression we got in Starcraft and Brood War that those who fight for what is good don't always win. That at the end of the day, greed and fear and racism are stronger than justice and peace. I wanted characters like Mengsk and Artanis. I hoped for some complexity.
First off, Mengsk is still in power and given that the Dark Voice is still out there, it's only a temporary victory at best. And Mengsk was never complex. He may have started out noble but by the end of campaign one he was a heartless monster willing to step on anyone who got in his way and who cared more about his own power than the good of the people.

7.) What do you mean we've 'already' seen Kerrigan as the evil overlord? That was her character! The whole plot of Brood War demonstrated that the 'evil' in Kerrigan was more than just mind control. It's who she was. Even after the Overmind released her, she strove to dominate and destroy. Why the hell should that change? Why should she seek redemption? Why should Raynor seek redemption for her? Why are we even talking about the possibility of redemption?

Because of a stupid fucking bullshit plot device which magically turned Kerrigan into a better person. God knows how. Brood War, as I said, demonstrated that Kerrigan is evil by choice. What we've been given is a character derailment justified by a sloppy deus ex machina.


It should change because it's overdone and can't really go much longer without being dragged out. Arthas only reappers in wrath, and he's dead by the end of the expansion. And actually the novels Shadow Hunters and Queen of Blades implied that it was more "the infestation surpressed elements such as compassion and honor, while amplifying emotions like Anger, rage, and a desire to do whatever she wanted." She wasn't wholly brainwashed, nor was it some split personality. However, it wasn't fully her choice either. This can open the way for genuine self reflection; how much was the infestation, and how much was her anger and rage? She would change because enough infestation was purged to break most of the conditioning.

I already explained how the artifact in WOL is basically a smaller more portable version of the pyramid on shakuras in brood war mixed with the serum from the nintendo 64 reserection campaign; combined with the fact that we still don't know the whole story about it, calling it a deus ex machina is downright false.


If each ending is ultra ultra ultra grim with little positive gains, or overall more negative than positive, it gets boring.
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  #82  
Old 01-20-2013, 07:38 PM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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You can only have bad things happen over and over for so long before it starts to get repetitive. If the entire Starcraft story was about how the honest man gets shit on over and over, until he eventually drinks himself to death, with the conclusion being "Fuck you", then the quality is no longer there and it just becomes some emo story about how depressing life is.

I love Starcraft because of the dark and gritty and realism that gets thrown around, but much like life, there is good within the bad, so having moments like the end of WoL is a well thought out breath of fresh air. Flashpoint gets even deeper into the ending of WoL, with Jim being constantly haunted by memories of Tychus throughout the book. It made me sad, but in a good way.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:05 PM
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You can only have bad things happen over and over for so long before it starts to get repetitive. If the entire Starcraft story was about how the honest man gets shit on over and over, until he eventually drinks himself to death, with the conclusion being "Fuck you", then the quality is no longer there and it just becomes some emo story about how depressing life is.
Nobody's asking for that! I'd just like the protagonists to succeed through something other than a blatant and unsatisfying deus ex machina.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:19 PM
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Nobody's asking for that! I'd just like the protagonists to succeed through something other than a blatant and unsatisfying deus ex machina.
It wasn't really a deus ex machina considering they had to fight for it, and unless I'm mistaken, it will play a major role in the future.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:04 PM
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It wasn't really a deus ex machina considering they had to fight for it, and unless I'm mistaken, it will play a major role in the future.
You're right. It's not the artifact itself that bothers me. It's the idea that Kerrigan is 'cured' now. It's an abrupt and, in my opinion, unsatisfying derailment of the prior plot and character.

But in truth, the ending wasn't the biggest problem I had with WoL. What bothered me most were the changes to characterization and pacing. The original game's cast felt more consistently appealing and believable than WoL's. Even the villains had charm and style. Edmund Duke, Arcturus Mengsk, Aldaris, Kerrigan, even and especially the Overmind were all characters one could respect and to some degree admire. They behaved with dignity, as though there were no doubt in the rightness of their cause.

In Starcraft II, Mengsk is a raging lunatic, barely capable of managing his own public image. In the original, he was a charismatic snake and cunning wordsmith. Kerrigan's a deep-voiced melodramaticist now, instead of the scornful, snarky queen bitch of the universe we left in Brood War. Raynor's turned from an angry and bewildered pawn abandoned by powers that had no more use for him into a caricature of the ideological freedom fighter. Artanis was always a bit of a flake, so his vapid speech in Utter Darkness doesn't bother me too much, but Zeratul's somehow morphed into a confused old man. And where's the damn magistrate?

The story of Starcraft and Brood War were less driven. They didn't have as clear or persistent a direction as Wings of Liberty. But I think that was to their credit. Motivation was dynamic. Sometimes the current information would be misleading or inaccurate, one's adversaries would turn out to be allies and frequently vice versa. There was more in play than a single Macguffin.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:06 PM
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We hadn't seen Kerrigan as the evil overlord, we'd seen her rise to the position. Aside from some very minor roles in the novels, we haven't ever seen Kerrigan act in the position itself.

To make a comparison, it'd be like if Darth Vader was redeemed in the first half of A New Hope.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:13 PM
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I totally agree that SC2's villains were fairly standard villains, as it seems to me that they mainly focused on making Jim and Tychus and the Raiders much more heroic and likeable.

Also, on Kerrigan's cure, this is a major point of Flashpoint, with many questioning wether or not she is actually cured...

It turns out she isn't.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:29 AM
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We hadn't seen Kerrigan as the evil overlord, we'd seen her rise to the position. Aside from some very minor roles in the novels, we haven't ever seen Kerrigan act in the position itself.

To make a comparison, it'd be like if Darth Vader was redeemed in the first half of A New Hope.
This.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:12 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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The thing about the cure is the fact that Kerrigan's evil was implied in the novels to be the infestation bringing out her inner darkness and making it dominant. The artifact basically purged enough of the infestation to bring her humanity back to the surface after it was buried beneath layers and layers of hatred and rage. It's like how at the end of the orc campaign of WC3, when the priests and shaman were able to purge the fel energy enough to allow Grom's nobility to resurface.

I personally felt that Raynor's issues were confronted in each of the side missions.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:22 PM
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And in the next game, we find out just how cured she is. Based on what we've seen so far, she's likely still very much Zerg connected, but more "human".
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:16 PM
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This says to me that they're undercutting the point they tripped over themselves to make in the first place.

So the artifact which everyone expected to magically cure Kerrigan didn't magically cure her so much as give her a makeover. A magic, ancient alien makeover.

Maybe it's cut off her connection to the Swarm, as well? So, what, we're back to the start of Brood War?

Incidentally, I never saw her stop being human. Kerrigan in Brood War was cruel, conniving and incredibly intelligent, but since when have humans not been? Kerrigan told jokes and lost her temper and based her actions on motivations anyone could understand. She was an abused slave, freed and given the powers of a god. Of course she was going to try to inflict some measure of what she had suffered on her old masters. Most humans, in her severely damaged, disturbed circumstances, would do the same. It doesn't take a vaguely defined neural parasite to turn someone evil, just a life of pain and subjugation.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:40 PM
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I don't really see how, to be honest. We know that she's not fully human still just based on the hair, she's just less zerg than she was before (which already lead to lots of discussion on if she was really cured or not).

Obviously Jim feels that she was, and while she may have lost some of the zerg personality traits (how many, not sure, need either the game or to read the book), she's still ultimately got the revenge thing going on.

As for being back at the start of Brood War, depends on what needs to happen for her to get control of the zerg back. Ultimately, it's not the same zerg it was before and we have no idea how long it's going to take her to get control again.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:12 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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In Brood War Kerrigan's actions went beyond "lashing out at her tormenters" and into outright evil for the sake of it. The Protoss's only crime was to outsmart her; they hadn't done anything in particular to wrong her. The way she mocked Zeratul and kept him alive out of sadism, the fact that she launched an attack on Shakuras THAT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN NECESSARY IF SHE HADN'T SPRUNG HER BETRAYAL EARLIER, and killed a lot of protoss, and the fact that she tried to brainwash Razsegal instead of sincerely and openly trying to make peace even though the whole situation could have potentially been cleared if she had tried to approach in good faith and said "hey I was brainwashed, not anymore" shows that most of Kerrigan's actions towards the Protoss was sheer sadism rather than understandable rage. Also, the fact that she only feels a desire to take a break after Jim calls her out is a little suspicious. One of the books, Shadow Hunters implied that Kerrigan is irritated because thinking about Jim brings back a small element of regret.

I'm not saying it was a parasite that made her evil. When she was a human, she did have positive traits (Bravery, a sense of honor, loyalty and compassion.) However, there were darker elements as well (inability to handle betrayal, rage, anger, a desire to lash out at those who wronged her, as shown in the book when she murdered her tormenter from her ghost years BY DEEP FRYING HIS BRAIN WITH HER POWERS). I believe that the infestation surpressed the traits such as compassion and honor, and in doing so allowed the darker elements to become dominant (it could have potentially amplified them as well.)

She's similar to Grom Hellscream in that both were exposed to substances that brought out their darker nature, and when those substances were purged the lighter elements of their personality reemerged.

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Old 01-21-2013, 08:33 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I had always assumed that the process of infestation would have been traumatic enough to 'turn' Kerrigan, so to speak.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
I had always assumed that the process of infestation would have been traumatic enough to 'turn' Kerrigan, so to speak.
As opposed or in addition to all the psychological torture she went through under the Confederacy and then Mengsk?
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:07 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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I think one of the things your going to see in HotS is Kerrigan choosing to be the Queen of Blades (whether she takes the title back or not) rather than being forced to (which is the impression you get from her before).
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Last edited by Garotar; 01-22-2013 at 05:47 AM..
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:47 AM
cenkiss cenkiss is offline

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I wonder if we will learn what others in raynor's army think of saving kerrigan. Will they fall in line with raynor or give a damn your raynor speech?
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:38 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I don't really see how, to be honest. We know that she's not fully human still just based on the hair, she's just less zerg than she was before (which already lead to lots of discussion on if she was really cured or not).

Obviously Jim feels that she was, and while she may have lost some of the zerg personality traits (how many, not sure, need either the game or to read the book), she's still ultimately got the revenge thing going on.

As for being back at the start of Brood War, depends on what needs to happen for her to get control of the zerg back. Ultimately, it's not the same zerg it was before and we have no idea how long it's going to take her to get control again.

Obviously Kerrigan and Raynor make a half Zerg/human baby in HotS!
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:33 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Oh hey.

This one's actually pretty cool. Some of the lore's old but good, and the newer stuff is actually kind of interesting.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:24 PM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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Oh hey.

This one's actually pretty cool. Some of the lore's old but good, and the newer stuff is actually kind of interesting.
If you're happy with it it must be phenomenal!
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