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  #26  
Old 07-02-2014, 09:31 AM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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It's the perfect excuse for not checking written lore!
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2014, 11:01 AM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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I find that a total cop-out answer. I mean, they've told us Garrosh went back to the actual time period and halted the formation of the Old Horde, convincing them to remain Mag'har while stoking up dreams of conquest anyway. Can't they just say the Bleeding Hollow weren't unique enough to fill a niche in the Antagonist Horde Mark IV so they made one up?
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  #28  
Old 07-02-2014, 11:11 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I find that a total cop-out answer. I mean, they've told us Garrosh went back to the actual time period and halted the formation of the Old Horde, convincing them to remain Mag'har while stoking up dreams of conquest anyway. Can't they just say the Bleeding Hollow weren't unique enough to fill a niche in the Antagonist Horde Mark IV so they made one up?
We literally don't know, and will not know at least until we see more of Tanaan. Even if the guy is honorable, not only did he join the Horde, he may or may not have drunken the demon blood the first time. Also consider this, there's a reason why they're called the Bleeding Hollow. If they changed Ner'zhul while keeping his character, then maybe there's more to Kilrogg that we don't know.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2014, 11:30 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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For Bliz it's the rule of cool that matters nothin else really.

They go "back in time" and they'll use it as a justification to do anything they like with the characters and the clans.

Ofcourse, if everything is completely different then it kinda begs a question as to why we even really go there in the first place (beyond rule of cool).

This Thunderlord Clan ain't our Thunderlord Clan.
The Shadowmoon ain't our Shadowmoon.
This Kilrog ain't our Kilrog etc etc.

Because of this, very little of it can be taken as MU clan lore and can only really be seen as AU clan lore.

You're left wondering if that lore is REALLY the lore of the clan or if it's just AU.
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  #30  
Old 07-02-2014, 12:42 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #31  
Old 07-02-2014, 07:18 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
For Bliz it's the rule of cool that matters nothin else really.

They go "back in time" and they'll use it as a justification to do anything they like with the characters and the clans.

Ofcourse, if everything is completely different then it kinda begs a question as to why we even really go there in the first place (beyond rule of cool).

This Thunderlord Clan ain't our Thunderlord Clan.
The Shadowmoon ain't our Shadowmoon.
This Kilrog ain't our Kilrog etc etc.

Because of this, very little of it can be taken as MU clan lore and can only really be seen as AU clan lore.

You're left wondering if that lore is REALLY the lore of the clan or if it's just AU.

That thought somehow just makes it worse. I mean, it essentially means Garrosh created an AU in which everyone honourable is evil, everyone grey on the scale is just straight up dark and everyone who was evil is even more evil. (Though with Gul'dan, that really shouldn't be possible)

The funny thing is, I guess I kind of want to believe this shambles of an expansion precedent could be salvaged into something good, despite my inner pessimist telling me that's impossible.
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  #32  
Old 07-03-2014, 08:44 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The only good Orcs were, ironically, the Laughing Skulls. As they allied with the Alliance during the Second War.

Mogor the Ogre for best Chieftan.
If BtDP novel is canon, then none of that happened. Instead, a random Laughing Skull orc just gave the Book of Medivh to Khadgar.

In WCII days... well, the official strategy guide assumed Mogor was the ogre you killed at the end of Horde Mission 1, which would have probably been canon since it happened before the portal was reopened, meaning it was a different Laughing Skull leader in Alliance Mission 11. And it was more that they were opportunistic, wanting to claim some local territory since they didn't know the world was getting destroyed, back when Draenor actually got destroyed.

Retrolore speculation is fun, more fun than real lore!

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-03-2014 at 08:48 AM..
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  #33  
Old 07-03-2014, 05:03 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
If BtDP novel is canon, then none of that happened. Instead, a random Laughing Skull orc just gave the Book of Medivh to Khadgar.

In WCII days... well, the official strategy guide assumed Mogor was the ogre you killed at the end of Horde Mission 1, which would have probably been canon since it happened before the portal was reopened, meaning it was a different Laughing Skull leader in Alliance Mission 11. And it was more that they were opportunistic, wanting to claim some local territory since they didn't know the world was getting destroyed, back when Draenor actually got destroyed.

Retrolore speculation is fun, more fun than real lore!
I suppose. It would certainly be entertaining to have an AU like the one in WoD and pit the orcs against the Burning Legion. Be more fun than killing any orc not a Frostwolf, greenskin or Laughing Skull. Ah, if only...
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  #34  
Old 07-03-2014, 05:35 PM
Eterna Eterna is offline

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It's because Orcs are dumb and have a culture based around dumb meatheaded jockness.
Fojar understands.
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  #35  
Old 07-04-2014, 06:44 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Fojar understands.
Does he? I think it's a little more complicated than that. Honestly though? I'm pretty sure I didn't start a thread to talk about the dumb, meat-headed jocks orcs purportly are. I think it was a broader topic.
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  #36  
Old 07-04-2014, 06:49 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Does he? I think it's a little more complicated than that. Honestly though? I'm pretty sure I didn't start a thread to talk about the dumb, meat-headed jocks orcs purportly are. I think it was a broader topic.
if your expecting a topic to have a broader sense of subject matter while captain lordaeron's floating around.. I'd honestly expect a little less, as in.. a Lot less.
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  #37  
Old 07-04-2014, 07:23 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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if your expecting a topic to have a broader sense of subject matter while captain lordaeron's floating around.. I'd honestly expect a little less, as in.. a Lot less.
I'm quite familiar with our friend's work. I'd hoped ignoring him would allow the thread to move on smoothly; I didn't count on someone agreeing with him. But then, there's no accounting for taste.
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  #38  
Old 07-04-2014, 07:26 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Orcs are actually an example of a classic science fiction storyline, ie a primitive species who haven't gotten their shit sorted out yet (Orcs) are uplifted by a far more advanced species who intend to use them for their own ends (The Burning Legion) and that species becomes super dangerous to not only the species that uplifted them but also everyone else because they were given access to technology and knowledge they weren't ready for.

The Orcs being a bunch of primitive dummies with a primitive dummy jock culture actually is the core issue here.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #39  
Old 07-04-2014, 07:34 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Orcs are actually an example of a classic science fiction storyline, ie a primitive species who haven't gotten their shit sorted out yet (Orcs) are uplifted by a far more advanced species who intend to use them for their own ends (The Burning Legion) and that species becomes super dangerous to not only the species that uplifted them but also everyone else because they were given access to technology and knowledge they weren't ready for.

The Orcs being a bunch of primitive dummies with a primitive dummy jock culture actually is the core issue here.
Are you trying to tell me you know the crux of my own thread better than me? Really? Because I'd be happy to direct you to the first thread, where I cite that I'm talking about how Blizzard's bad writing is clashing with my personal pref-

You know what? Nevermind. This isn't worth the effort.
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  #40  
Old 07-04-2014, 07:37 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Creating a thread doesn't make you lord and master of the thread's subject matter.

Also this has been pretty consistent with the Orcs characterization, people just overlooked it in WC3 because of Thrall-san.
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  #41  
Old 07-04-2014, 07:43 PM
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Best thing to do with Blizzard at the moment is assume that history is fluid and ever changing to the whims of the present.

Makes me wonder why they have a lore library.
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  #42  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:02 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Thumbs down

I'm going to be mature about that cute "lord and master" remark and pay it no mind. As for the orcs, they have people among them who are hot-headed and sometimes reckless. They're not exactly the first race to suffer that. Examples:

Aszhara: Used magic powers to build up a cult of personality and almost summoned the Lord of the Legion, The Dark Titan Sargeras, physically into Azeroth. (Night elf)

Illidan/Malfurion Stormrage: Former's reckless actions in pursuit of good deeds and power and latter's emotion-charged reactions to complex issues (including the actions of the former) cause constant misery for others. (both Night elf)

Tyrande Whisperwind: Killed outsiders and released Illidan, both on pure intinct, and each action would have repurcussions. (Night elf)

Fandral Staghelm: Became the Night Elf version of Garrosh. (Night elf)

Arthas Menethil: His reckless pursuit of revenge cost him his soul and led him to the clutches of the Lich King. (Human)

Genn Greymane: Cut off his kingdom from the Alliance out of pride and pettiness, sitting by as the Scourge consumed Lordaeron and other kingdoms; arranged for the worgen to be released back into the world of Warcraft. (Worgen)

Daelin Proudmoore: Wouldn't stop fighting the orcs, got killed by his own daughter. (Human)

Varian Wrynn: His record speaks for itself. (Human)

Sicco Thermaplugg: Irradiated his own people in the middle of a skirmish with invading troggs out of petty ambition. Got himself killed by adventurers. (Gnome)

The Auchenai: After the sacking of Auchindoun's crypts, turned to binding souls and necromancy at the hands of their twisted leader, Vindicator Maladar. (Draenei)

And that's before we even get into the races now part of the Horde, or the outside people. So don't go telling me it's an orcish issue.

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Best thing to do with Blizzard at the moment is assume that history is fluid and ever changing to the whims of the present.

Makes me wonder why they have a lore library.
You make it sound so easy. Sorry, but I'm too stubborn and too much of a perfectionist to simply let plot holes slide.
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  #43  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:17 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You not understanding Orcs isn't a plot hole.
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  #44  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:22 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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You make it sound so easy. Sorry, but I'm too stubborn and too much of a perfectionist to simply let plot holes slide.
We were all like you once.
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  #45  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:33 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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I'm sure I'll get out of it eventually. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time I got shafted by a video game with an implausible plot and rolled with it. It's just a skill we all must learn - especially on the Internet.
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  #46  
Old 07-05-2014, 12:48 AM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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It's not that the orcs have some reckless and hot-headed people, it's their whole characterization. In the other races, as you pointed out, you have people who start trouble for being like that and create plots. In the case of the orcs, the ones who stand out are usually the ones without that spark of "I'm going to smash your head for no reason". The vast majority of the race? It's shown war-like to the point of stupidity.

Blizzard has a grave problem of "No, guys, the orcs are honorable" and trying to show it in a character while the other 100.000 orcs are eating babies because of the need of the faction conflict.
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  #47  
Old 07-05-2014, 08:38 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'm sure I'll get out of it eventually. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time I got shafted by a video game with an implausible plot and rolled with it. It's just a skill we all must learn - especially on the Internet.
Ever hear of Anne Stickney, writer of much of the UVG?

Ever read her opinions on timelines and continuity?
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  #49  
Old 07-05-2014, 01:40 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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I told you guys!

It is not our Draenor.
no its kosaks draenor how he wanted it to be.
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  #50  
Old 07-08-2014, 01:24 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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It's not that the orcs have some reckless and hot-headed people, it's their whole characterization. In the other races, as you pointed out, you have people who start trouble for being like that and create plots. In the case of the orcs, the ones who stand out are usually the ones without that spark of "I'm going to smash your head for no reason". The vast majority of the race? It's shown war-like to the point of stupidity.

Blizzard has a grave problem of "No, guys, the orcs are honorable" and trying to show it in a character while the other 100.000 orcs are eating babies because of the need of the faction conflict.
Yep, the faction conflict has ruled the roost for a long time, and it's made a right mess of the place in the process.

If you think about it, the hostility of certain races is kind of what drives the levelling process. A bunch of nameless mooks to kill repeatedly and without remorse. I tell you, I lose no sleep over the thought of killing all those troggs, gnolls, kobolds and murlocs. But killing a playable race member? With a name? That makes me feel different. Blizzard however are fond of making us root for one side by making the other impossibly evil. Originally the forest trolls and high elves were just the trolls and elves, and it was said that the trolls had suffered years of attrition by the elves and their allies, hence why they joined the Horde. When they were no longer part of the Horde faction in Warcraft III, Blizzard tacked on a bunch of negative attributes, including - but not limited to - cannibalism, use of the dark arts and an unrelenting hatred of anyone not a forest troll.

But enough about that. We're talking about orcs. They value strength, it's true - so do the ogres. Their culture asserts it is honourable to fight in defense of home, family and clan - so does that of the tauren. Where most humans use military action only when the need is pressing, the orcs will get in and pre-emptively strike the first blow - is that not also true of the worgen? And yeah - we see them get involved in all these terrible things probably for the same reason the lads up in Tiragarde Keep and Northwatch Hold are almost all humans: they're the face of the Horde/Alliance, so their appearance is sort of standard for a camp/settlement set up by that faction. The trouble is that they use orcs because, supposedly, tauren wouldn't do anything like that, the Darkspear haven't the numbers or strength to do anything without help and the Forsaken, the blood elves, the goblins - they're only as good or bad as plot demands. Orcs, however? They're in a tug-o'-war over how good or bad they allegedly are. Trouble is, no one's sure what the right answer is, except certain Alliance fans of course.
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