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Old 04-12-2015, 05:51 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Shadow Orb When/what did Durotan learn about the Shadow Council?

I realize this might be territory that we've already gone over, but I wanted to review it for a project I'm working on.

Lord of the Clans established that Durotan and the Frostwolves were banished shortly after the start of the First War because Durotan spoke out against Gul'dan. Years pass, but it's not until after Orgrim has become the Warchief that Durotan tells him about the Shadow Council, and it's not even a night after Durotan tells Orgrim this that Durotan and Draka are killed by Gul'dan's agents.

Rise of the Horde established that it was Ner'zhul who leaked the information about the Shadow Council and the Burning Legion to Durotan, and that Durotan knew this before the orc chieftains drank from the Cup of Unity and destroyed Shattrath. Durotan refused to drink, and Gul'dan knew that he knew something, but then years passed while Gul'dan constructed the Dark Portal.

The UVG then sets the timeline like so:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Visual Guide, pg. 44
Soon it (the Horde) marched on Stormwind itself, where Garona Halforcen assassinated King Llane Wrynn, and the kingdom was crushed. Within the Horde, Durotan, leader of the Frostwolf Clan, discovered Gul'dan's treacherous scheming. He informed Blackhand's lieutenant, Orgrim Doomhammer, but shortly afterwards was killed by Gul'dan's assassins. Orgrim, convinced by Durotan's warning, turned on Blackhand, killing him and claiming the role of warchief. But Orgrim was intent on rooting out Gul'dan's treachery. His spies caught and tortured one of GUl'dan's agents, the half-orc assassin Garona Halforcen. Garona revealed the existence and location of the Shadow Council.
Tides of Darkness, just as a bonus, has the order entirely different from the UVG, where Gul'dan is in a coma for the whole period of Durotan's murder, Orgrim's betrayal, the destruction of the Shadow Council and the sacking of Stormwind, IN THAT ORDER.

I'm not really too worried about trying to unknot all the continuity shenanigans going on here. What I'm more interested in sussing out is why Gul'dan would a) exile Durotan and the Frostwolves instead of killing him, and b) wait until Durotan told Doomhammer about the Shadow Council before killing him.

Another core element behind all this: if we're looking to cement the idea that Orgrim betrays Blackhand because of Durotan's murder, that requires that Blackhand is implicated as part of the Shadow Council, which Durotan doesn't appear to learn from Ner'zhul.

Corollary elements to this: Kargath is one of the only people who we know is on the Shadow Council but never seems to suffer for it.

Let me put it to you this way: if the plot of the Orc campaign from WC1 centers on Orgrim learning about the corruption within the Horde, seeing that corruption kill Durotan, and then rising to overcome all of that as vengeance for his friend, while also finishing off Stormwind because reasons, then there are some details that need to get hammered down.
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Old 04-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I was always under the impression that the order was:

+Gul'dan kills Durotan.
+Gul'dan goes into coma
+Orgrim betrays Blackhand and kills him
+Sacking of Stormwind
+Orgrim tortures Garona
+Orcs wipe out the Shadow Council (including Teron Gorefiend)
+Gul'dan wakes up

In the WC3/Last Guardian era anyway.
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Old 04-13-2015, 12:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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(reads thread title) I think the answer is: gradually throughout Rise of the Horde, with the final piece coming off-screen when the Frostwolf Clan was exiled.

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Lord of the Clans established that Durotan and the Frostwolves were banished shortly after the start of the First War because Durotan spoke out against Gul'dan. Years pass, but it's not until after Orgrim has become the Warchief that Durotan tells him about the Shadow Council, and it's not even a night after Durotan tells Orgrim this that Durotan and Draka are killed by Gul'dan's agents.
I think Aldrius is right about the modern chronology here. In current lore, if I'm not mistaken, Durotan told Orgrim about the Shadow Council:

-before the First War ended
-in southern Lordaeron, along the river that goes from Darrowmere Lake to the Great Sea

It's a little different than Lord of the Clans had it. Lord of the Clans does say that Orgrim is warchief at the time, but the book also indicates Gul'dan held power over Orgrim... my theory is that LotC understood the position of warchief to be subservient to the position Gul'dan held? (If so, it explains why Orgrim is considered a hero even though the Old Horde is considered monstrous throughout both wars---from the understanding of LotC, it was Gul'dan and not Orgrim who led until the war(s) were nearly over.)

LotC also indicated that Durotan and Draka were the ones who traveled to meet Orgrim at the battlefront, and that they met at the end of both wars, as we see in the following scenes that Blackmoore is already housing orc prisoners in Durnholde Keep, and Alliance soldiers need gladiator fights to keep them entertained because the dying Horde isn't seen as a threat anymore.

Now our understanding is that Orgrim wasn't warchief yet--since he wouldn't have had to worry about Gul'dan's official power if he were warchief--which means this happened during the First War. I believe when Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects replayed this scene, it removed references to Orgrim being warchief or to Blackmoore having a distinguished service record fighting orcs at this point.

There's still the geographic issue of how Orgrim was in southern Lordaeron to meet with Durotan while the First War was still being waged, with the most common headcanon being that he just traveled that far while trying to make contact with the trolls, and walked across Khaz Modan and continental Lordaeron without being spotted by anyone because he was very, very sneaky. Blizzard hasn't confirmed or denied this yet. (Though a tweet did confirm that Durotan and the Frostwolf Clan traveled from continental Azeroth to the Alterac Valley without being seen because they were very very sneaky themselves, and killed any witnesses, so it stands to reason the same sort of thing could've happened again.)

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Rise of the Horde established that it was Ner'zhul who leaked the information about the Shadow Council and the Burning Legion to Durotan, and that Durotan knew this before the orc chieftains drank from the Cup of Unity and destroyed Shattrath. Durotan refused to drink, and Gul'dan knew that he knew something,
Ah! I don't think Durotan knew about the Shadow Council or specifically the Burning Legion yet. Ner'zhul's letter said:

You will be asked to drink. Refuse. It is the blood of twisted souls, and it will twist yours and those of all who imbibe. It will enslave you forever. By the love of all we once held dear, refuse.


Durotan then reflects that the ancient language this letter was written in had a single word for twisted souls: dae'mons, or demons. He also pretty much knows who wrote the letter, even though Ner'zhul sent it anonymously and didn't sign. So at this point he'd pieced together that Ner'zhul was warning him that demons are behind the recent Horde shenanigans, but he didn't have all the details yet. He didn't even know if Blackhand was involved.

"Will you tell Orgrim?"

Durotan shook his head. Pain laced his heart. "I dare not. He is oath-bound to tell Blackhand."

"Do you think Blackhand knows about this?"

Durotan shrugged. "I have no idea who knows what. I only know that I must protect my people. And I will do so."


And yeah, notice how Draka doesn't ask him, "Do you think Gul'dan knows about this?" It's pretty obvious to them both that Gul'dan's calling the shots, even though Ner'zhul's letter didn't list any names.

Durotan is piecing it together gradually. He knows about the bad demons, and he's guessed that Gul'dan has a hand in it, but he doesn't know how far it goes and doesn't know the terms "Shadow Council" or "Burning Legion" yet.

And, to give Golden and the lore credit, that does sync with what Durotan tells Orgrim in Lord of the Clans:

“You spoke with veiled words many years ago,” said Doomhammer.

“I wished to protect my clan, and I was not certain my suspicions were correct until Gul’dan imposed the exile,” Durotan replied. “His swift punishment made it clear that what I knew was true. Listen, my old friend, and then you must judge for yourself.”


He wasn't 100% sure until Gul'dan had him exiled. And by then, he probably had no chance to warn Orgrim until this moment later on.

Quote:
but then years passed while Gul'dan constructed the Dark Portal.
I'm not sure it's the case anymore. The 2007 Timeline places RotH in the Year -1. Just like it places the First War in Year 0--the start date, not the end date.

Of course, it also has the old entry for "Rise of the Horde" which places these events at Year -45, a point that better corresponds to the timelines of the RTS games than what we have in the novels or modern lore, so my best guess is they forgot to take that old entry off.

The event doesn't show up in the UVG Timeline, but from what I can tell--it looks like the only change the UVG Timeline made was letting the Third War be two years instead of just one.

Quote:
The UVG then sets the timeline like so:
Quote:
Soon it (the Horde) marched on Stormwind itself, where Garona Halforcen assassinated King Llane Wrynn, and the kingdom was crushed. Within the Horde, Durotan, leader of the Frostwolf Clan, discovered Gul'dan's treacherous scheming. He informed Blackhand's lieutenant, Orgrim Doomhammer, but shortly afterwards was killed by Gul'dan's assassins. Orgrim, convinced by Durotan's warning, turned on Blackhand, killing him and claiming the role of warchief. But Orgrim was intent on rooting out Gul'dan's treachery. His spies caught and tortured one of Gul'dan's agents, the half-orc assassin Garona Halforcen. Garona revealed the existence and location of the Shadow Council.
Yeah... the only way for this to have been possible, would be if Gul'dan's assassins had acted without Gul'dan's specific orders. Because:

-Before Stormwind falls, Garona assassinates Llane
-Before Garona assassinates lane, she raids Medivh's Tower with Lothar and Khadgar, leaving just before Medivh is killed
-From the point that the raid on Medivh begins, Gul'dan is in a trance within his mind---and it turns into a coma when Medivh is killed

Honestly, it's a problem caused by The Last Guardian. Even though it's my favorite Warcraft book, it creates numerous headaches about the end chronology of the First War. I love Jeff Grubb's writing, but I don't think he knew Gul'dan was in Medivh's mind at the time Medivh was killed. Also in that book, it's as if the Horde just starts to unite when Blackhand rallies them to attack Stormwind the second time... and hilariously, when Garona sees that future vision, she remarks that the forces attacking Stormwind must be the Horde's instead of Medivh's, because there aren't any demons present! I bet Grubb played Warcraft II, but not the original game.

Quote:
Tides of Darkness, just as a bonus, has the order entirely different from the UVG, where Gul'dan is in a coma for the whole period of Durotan's murder, Orgrim's betrayal, the destruction of the Shadow Council and the sacking of Stormwind, IN THAT ORDER.
I think that text implies Durotan was killed earlier; Orgrim tells Gul'dan he knows that it happened, but he never specifies when it happened. It's possible/probable he was sitting on the info, until the the right opportunity to make his move. Gul'dan's coma would've been that opportunity.

Quote:
I'm not really too worried about trying to unknot all the continuity shenanigans going on here. What I'm more interested in sussing out is why Gul'dan would a) exile Durotan and the Frostwolves instead of killing him, and b) wait until Durotan told Doomhammer about the Shadow Council before killing him.
a) My guess is Durotan was too well protected against assassination, at that point? Maybe there would've been a backlash from the Frostwolf Clan, which could lead to other clans joining them, and maybe Gul'dan doubted he could keep power in the midst of a civil war and an invasion of Azeroth simultaneously. Exile was cleaner, if Durotan fled willingly. Which he did.

We know so little about this time period... we have no idea what the circumstances were when Durotan was exiled. It could have been right when the Horde reached the new world. It could have been in the failed first attack on Stormwind Keep. It could have been at any point after then, in the midst of the five-year war.

b) My guess is Gul'dan didn't know where Durotan was, until the moment he made contact with Orgrim.

Quote:
Another core element behind all this: if we're looking to cement the idea that Orgrim betrays Blackhand because of Durotan's murder, that requires that Blackhand is implicated as part of the Shadow Council, which Durotan doesn't appear to learn from Ner'zhul.
He probably figured Blackhand was either part of the Shadow Council, or that he had some form of invincible ignorance keeping him from realizing he was a puppet.

Again, we never see the scene of Orgrim challenging Blackhand. Who knows? Perhaps Orgrim began by publicly warning about Gul'dan, and Blackhand's response helped make the decision for him.

Quote:
Corollary elements to this: Kargath is one of the only people who we know is on the Shadow Council but never seems to suffer for it.
You know what's funny? I think Rise of the Horde is the only source that mentions Kargath Bladefist being on the Shadow Council. As far as I can tell, it never came up in the Beyond the Dark Portal novel (even though Ner'zhul sat in on the meetings and would have known if Kargath was in them), or anywhere else. Is that accurate?

It's just... it's bizarre. He's the only non-warlock we know of who was a member, other than puppet Blackhand. Sometimes I wonder if RotH made a typo here that was never corrected.

Quote:
Let me put it to you this way: if the plot of the Orc campaign from WC1 centers on Orgrim learning about the corruption within the Horde, seeing that corruption kill Durotan, and then rising to overcome all of that as vengeance for his friend, while also finishing off Stormwind because reasons, then there are some details that need to get hammered down.
Agreed. As for me? I'd like to know who gave Garona the order to kill King Llane.

Sometimes I think Cho'gall... sometimes I think it's a magical deadman switch activated when Gul'dan lost consciousness.

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Old 04-13-2015, 01:56 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
a) My guess is Durotan was too well protected against assassination, at that point? Maybe there would've been a backlash from the Frostwolf Clan, which could lead to other clans joining them, and maybe Gul'dan doubted he could keep power in the midst of a civil war and an invasion of Azeroth simultaneously. Exile was cleaner, if Durotan fled willingly. Which he did.
At the very least, not exiling the frostwolves would have probably resulted in them forming a unified front with the whiteclaws. If it came to civil war, those two clans could potentially ally with the bladewind and the redwalker as well, resulting in what's probably a fairly powerful faction.

Of course, that explanation is a lot less plausible with the latter three of those clans quietly vanishing from the lore.
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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This just makes me wanna go back to those WC1-era TV show scripts I was writing...

They weren't awful.

...at least I don't think they were.

Though my initially planned 13 episode limit seems kinda short now...

Hell, I might end up doing it as a radio series someday. Though I'd need to do a lot of casting.
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:50 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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Loreology said that Draka and Durotan were killed (and thus met with Orgrim) in Year 0.
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:46 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mordecay View Post
Loreology said that Draka and Durotan were killed (and thus met with Orgrim) in Year 0.
Right, that's right! Because Thrall was born in Year 0. I remember now. It had to be that way, because Draka was pregnant already.

A whole lotta stuff happened in Years -1 and 0. Then nothing. Then a whole lot more in Years 5 and 6. Then nothing. Then a lot more in Year 8.
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:42 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Right, that's right! Because Thrall was born in Year 0. I remember now. It had to be that way, because Draka was pregnant already.

A whole lotta stuff happened in Years -1 and 0. Then nothing. Then a whole lot more in Years 5 and 6. Then nothing. Then a lot more in Year 8.
I've got a proposal for a new version of these events, but I'm debating if I want to talk about it here or just focus on creating it.

The bottom line is that there's a way to come out of the First War with all of the proper pieces in play (Durotan/Draka are dead, Orgrim leads the Horde, Gul'dan and Cho'gall begrudgingly serve Orgrim, Thrall is in Blackmoore's control, etc) to set things up for WC2/3/WoW, but the situation as it stands simply can't be repaired while also preserving the drama.

To put it another way, there needs to be some more retconning done in order to put forth a narrative that delivers dramatically while also supporting good gameplay.

For example, how does the Blackmoore plot change if he finds the kid after the first war instead of the second? It forces a LOT of background changes to Blackmoore himself.
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:20 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I've got a proposal for a new version of these events, but I'm debating if I want to talk about it here or just focus on creating it.
The project you're working on, mentioned in your first post here.

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For example, how does the Blackmoore plot change if he finds the kid after the first war instead of the second? It forces a LOT of background changes to Blackmoore himself.
I actually think that would work better, and actually closer to what Golden probably intended in Lord of the Clans.


1) You don't have the geography issue anymore of how Doomhammer is meeting Durotan in southern Lordaeron. There would have been Horde forces here during the Second War, and Durotan could have easily met with them.

2) You can keep Blackmoore's backstory, that he gained rank and fame by defeating orcs in battle. He would have had plenty of chances to do this after the attack on Lordaeron began.

3) You don't have the issue of Orgrim keeping Gul'dan alive and using him--even after knowing that Gul'dan killed Durotan's family.


Of course, other things would have to change. Draka couldn't be pregnant on Draenor anymore. And you'd have to factor in that Orgrim is leading the Horde at the time, so there would need to be explanations for why Durotan isn't joining Orgrim's Horde and for what sort of information Durotan would be giving Orgrim.

If, for example, Durotan had somehow learned about the Tomb of Sargeras scheme and the power Gul'dan hoped to gain, and he warned Doomhammer about this, then maybe Doomhammer would have a reason for abandoning the siege of Lordaeron to deal with Gul'dan (if he feared, for example, that Gul'dan would release something too powerful to stop).
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Old 04-13-2015, 03:16 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I actually think that would work better, and actually closer to what Golden probably intended in Lord of the Clans.


1) You don't have the geography issue anymore of how Doomhammer is meeting Durotan in southern Lordaeron. There would have been Horde forces here during the Second War, and Durotan could have easily met with them.

2) You can keep Blackmoore's backstory, that he gained rank and fame by defeating orcs in battle. He would have had plenty of chances to do this after the attack on Lordaeron began.

3) You don't have the issue of Orgrim keeping Gul'dan alive and using him--even after knowing that Gul'dan killed Durotan's family.


Of course, other things would have to change. Draka couldn't be pregnant on Draenor anymore. And you'd have to factor in that Orgrim is leading the Horde at the time, so there would need to be explanations for why Durotan isn't joining Orgrim's Horde and for what sort of information Durotan would be giving Orgrim.

If, for example, Durotan had somehow learned about the Tomb of Sargeras scheme and the power Gul'dan hoped to gain, and he warned Doomhammer about this, then maybe Doomhammer would have a reason for abandoning the siege of Lordaeron to deal with Gul'dan (if he feared, for example, that Gul'dan would release something too powerful to stop).
... That seems to be a scenario where Thrall is found shortly AFTER the Second War. What I'm suggesting is a scenario where Thrall is found shortly after the FIRST War.
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:22 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Durotan surviving the first war doesn't seem right to me.

Also I think the idea of Orgrim overthrowing Blackhand and Gul'dan as part of a penance for the death of his friend works really well.

One thing I thought might have happened, was the Frostwolves were banned, then on their way to Alterac, Durotan and Draka were ambushed and assassinated in Hillsbrad or something.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:11 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember the orcish wolf riders in WC1 are Frostwolf in origin. Them not being in WC2 was because they were disbanded or exiled. If that was the case it would mean the Forstwolves were present till the end of WC1, at least in Warcraft's first conception.
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:06 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember the orcish wolf riders in WC1 are Frostwolf in origin. Them not being in WC2 was because they were disbanded or exiled. If that was the case it would mean the Forstwolves were present till the end of WC1, at least in Warcraft's first conception.
I don't believe the Frostwolves were mentioned by name in WC1, since all the lore background for the Orc Raider was with the Sythegore Arm. Orgrim disbanding that was to distance his horde from Blackhand, since the Sythegore Arm was apparently Blackhand's Thing.

That being said, I never really bought that argument of the raiders getting cut, since it seemed like it was just an arbitrary choice in order to have Ogres/Ogre-Magi be the opposite number for Knights/Paladins. If I had the chance to do WC2 over again, I'd probably find a way to have the Raider unit still in play, even if the Ogre/Ogre-Mage outclasses it as a Knight-counter.

Given how long it's been since the Sythegore Arm has been mentioned, and since nothing about Blackhand's portrayal since WC1 has capitalized on him being a big cavalry guy, I'd be willing to throw out the Arm completely and just roll with the Frostwolves being the source of wolves for the Raiders.
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:29 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Durotan surviving the first war doesn't seem right to me.

Also I think the idea of Orgrim overthrowing Blackhand and Gul'dan as part of a penance for the death of his friend works really well.

One thing I thought might have happened, was the Frostwolves were banned, then on their way to Alterac, Durotan and Draka were ambushed and assassinated in Hillsbrad or something.
Hmm. You could have the meeting between Orgrim and Durotan happen before they leave, with Durotan pressuring him to act but Orgrim not quite certain yet, so that Durotan leads his clan on its exile--a little disappointed in his old friend, but hopeful that things may change in the future. (This avoids the ridiculous situation of Orgrim trekking through Khaz Modan and Arathi and southern Lordaeron and then back again, for a meeting that we don't know how they coordinated for, and it doesn't affect the timeline since it all has to happen in Year 0 anyway.)

As the Frostwolves begin their exile, Gul'dan's assassins follow them and wait for an opening to eliminate Durotan. Then just as you said, they ambush and kill them in Hillsbrad or wherever. Blackmoore finds baby Thrall. Drek'thar leads the rest of the clan to the Alterac Valley. The assassins report back to Gul'dan. Orgrim discovers this all near the end of the First War, and he can receive a healthy amount of guilt in knowing that he and Durotan could have ended this years ago when he was first warned. He decides to move against Blackhand and Gul'dan and waits for his opportunity, which comes in mere days or weeks when Gul'dan falls into a mysterious trance.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:15 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Hmm. You could have the meeting between Orgrim and Durotan happen before they leave, with Durotan pressuring him to act but Orgrim not quite certain yet, so that Durotan leads his clan on its exile--a little disappointed in his old friend, but hopeful that things may change in the future. (This avoids the ridiculous situation of Orgrim trekking through Khaz Modan and Arathi and southern Lordaeron and then back again, for a meeting that we don't know how they coordinated for, and it doesn't affect the timeline since it all has to happen in Year 0 anyway.)

As the Frostwolves begin their exile, Gul'dan's assassins follow them and wait for an opening to eliminate Durotan. Then just as you said, they ambush and kill them in Hillsbrad or wherever. Blackmoore finds baby Thrall. Drek'thar leads the rest of the clan to the Alterac Valley. The assassins report back to Gul'dan. Orgrim discovers this all near the end of the First War, and he can receive a healthy amount of guilt in knowing that he and Durotan could have ended this years ago when he was first warned. He decides to move against Blackhand and Gul'dan and waits for his opportunity, which comes in mere days or weeks when Gul'dan falls into a mysterious trance.
Is it 100% necessary that Durotan and Draka die at the same time?
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:14 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Is it 100% necessary that Durotan and Draka die at the same time?
(shrug)

Again, from my perspective, I'm more interested in what's happening to Garona and her chronology in the end of the First War.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:39 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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(shrug)

Again, from my perspective, I'm more interested in what's happening to Garona and her chronology in the end of the First War.
Yeah, Garona basically disappears from the narrative for about 20 years with no evident change as a result.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:11 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Would be cool if Doomhammer left her for dead after torturing her.

Or, what if Garona was the assassin that killed Durotan and Draka? Would be a nice twist.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:30 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Would be cool if Doomhammer left her for dead after torturing her.

Or, what if Garona was the assassin that killed Durotan and Draka? Would be a nice twist.
The chief problem with that is Garona abandons a squealing baby to the elements. Depending on how much existing continuity you want to preserve, this would be around the same time she abandons her own child to live with an undead human wizard she literally just met.

It presents a TON of weird questions about Garona that all make it hard to sympathize with her as a character.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:55 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Uhh, Med'an.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:57 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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The chief problem with that is Garona abandons a squealing baby to the elements. Depending on how much existing continuity you want to preserve, this would be around the same time she abandons her own child to live with an undead human wizard she literally just met.

It presents a TON of weird questions about Garona that all make it hard to sympathize with her as a character.
I figure if she already abandoned her own child, those questions have already been raised and we should just embrace the psychopathic nature of the character.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 04-14-2015, 12:56 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I figure if she already abandoned her own child, those questions have already been raised and we should just embrace the psychopathic nature of the character.
The true psychopath would leave him at Blackmoore's doorstep.
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:10 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I figure if she already abandoned her own child, those questions have already been raised and we should just embrace the psychopathic nature of the character.
The fact that so much of Garona's story was backfilled in order to service Med'an's origin story is really problematic to play with if you're trying to serve a narrative in the present.

I feel like there needs to be a solution for Garona getting lost in time, but that might end up being a problem for later.
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:06 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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The chief problem with that is Garona abandons a squealing baby to the elements. Depending on how much existing continuity you want to preserve, this would be around the same time she abandons her own child to live with an undead human wizard she literally just met.

It presents a TON of weird questions about Garona that all make it hard to sympathize with her as a character.
What if they add in a bit about how Garona couldn't bring herself to off a baby? So instead she leaves Thrall for the fates. Later Orgrim "leaves her for the fates" as a twisted form of thank you for not offing Thrall.

Not including anything to do with Med'an is a given.

You guys do make me wonder though. If Blackmoore found Thrall near the end of the first war, how would he know anything about orcs to know what to do with Thrall.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:46 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
What if they add in a bit about how Garona couldn't bring herself to off a baby? So instead she leaves Thrall for the fates. Later Orgrim "leaves her for the fates" as a twisted form of thank you for not offing Thrall.

Not including anything to do with Med'an is a given.

You guys do make me wonder though. If Blackmoore found Thrall near the end of the first war, how would he know anything about orcs to know what to do with Thrall.
Best workaround I can think of is that Blackmoore wins glory (and/or notoriety) as a minor foreign nobleman who aids Stormwind against the Blackhand Horde. He withdraws before Stormwind is sacked, and then the story proceeds as normal when he comes across baby Thrall in the woods. Obviously, this would mean that he wouldn't hatch his plan to grow Thrall into his personal weapon until Thrall was already 5-6, but it would also help to establish why he ended up being the internment camp administrator.
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