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  #76  
Old 06-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
It's because of that one short story.
That and all the actions Kellick listed. I think ToW made Baine's short-story pale in comparison.
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  #77  
Old 06-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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It's because of that one short story.
I think the dude is awesome. We just haven't seen enough of him.
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  #78  
Old 06-08-2013, 04:56 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Oh of course Baine isn't exciting, but logically he's also the only leader who doesn't have his head so far up his ass that he can keep the Horde together. Even Thrall never separated himself from his ego, which is why he chose to place his trust in a quixotic leader like Garrosh. You can't rule if you won't take action (Thrall in his later years at the helm), but by that same token, you can't be purely a man of action either (Garrosh). Baine is the middle ground, the wisdom and action without arrogance of either purpose or spirit (aka the Loa aren't going to meddle with his thoughts).

Of course, considering none of us have read Shadows of the Horde, maybe this is the point that Vol'jin divests himself of the Loa and becomes a more down to earth leader. Then again, a Shadow Hunter without the blessings of his ancestors isn't exactly a force to be reckoned with in a martial society.
Why would we want him to divest himself of the Loa? An understanding of and ability to commune with some of the earliest and most powerful spirits of Azeroth is hardly a negative attribute. And it's not like that sort of thing or taking advice from spirits really goes against any of the traditions of the Kalimdor Horde.

And his voodoo stuff hasn't ever really prevented him from being down to earth before, nor would I say that Baine is particularly down to earth either. Or much more actiony than Thrall was when the story was actually paying attention to him.

That's not to say I think Vol'jin is a perfect choice either at this stage. He's going to have to do some more work ingame himself if he's going to be thought of as a good and impressive choice by the playerbase in general.
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  #79  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:47 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Of course, considering none of us have read Shadows of the Horde, maybe this is the point that Vol'jin divests himself of the Loa and becomes a more down to earth leader. Then again, a Shadow Hunter without the blessings of his ancestors isn't exactly a force to be reckoned with in a martial society.
Well, if the contrasts between certain of the troll loas/gods are anything to go by, they can range from fairly benign teachers who share knowledge in return for respect, to domineering Soulflayers who expect obeisance and gruesome tribute in exchange for their favor.

The latter offer more bang for your blood-drenched buck (as with Hakkar helping the Gurubashi rise to prominence in the wake of the Sundering), but such a relationship results in the beneficiary having to rely on them wholly for true power while also being obligated to feed their spiritual backing with sacrifices.

Just look at Gonk, who had to basically argue with the other loas as they were resistant to helping the Darkspears. Yet for reasons that have yet to be fully explained, Gonk alone insisted upon teaching some of the Darkspears how to use druidism, a form of magic that doesn't require gods or spirits

(Just a personal theory here, but I suspect it may have to do with Gonk being a raptor loa, and the Darkspears considering their raptors allies and friends rather than just pets or beasts of burden.)

Not all loas are the same, and it's feasible that some of them actually care about the Darkspears out of an earnest desire for them to succeed and thrive rather than from an expectation of worship and tribute.

It's kind of like the difference between "giving a troll a fish" and "teaching a troll to fish"; the most powerful loas could well offer the former while jealously clinging to the latter, while a scant few who opt for the reverse may be willing to help the Darkspears wean themselves off of dependence upon the former.

After all, for the Zandalar Empire to have been ruled by the priest caste, it suggests that their gods may have been doing a lot of the heavy lifting. One could even speculate that the Gurubashi and Amani might have had to leave and form thier own nations because their desires for more self-actuated conquest was at odds with the Zandalari way of expecting the loas to tell them what they should do.

Last edited by ARM3481; 06-08-2013 at 06:53 PM..
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  #80  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:49 PM
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I think I'm going to skip this extract. I kinda like Vol'jin so I'd rather just wait until I can get the book myself.
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  #81  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:53 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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For Vol'jin, the Loa give him their power. If he disrespects them by going against their wishes (as this excerpt implies), he's basically giving up a portion of his ability to keep power in the Horde at all. Either way though, with his rebellion in 5.3, he's creating a rift between himself and those Horde members who aren't ultra-loyalists to Garrosh...but for whom they give respect for his pursuit of Horde dominance. It's exactly this kind of rift that caused the problems of the Old Horde, with too many factions brewing trouble beneath the Warchief. Vol'jin might be able to quell public uprisings, but he's certainly not going to be able to lead if there's just as much a chance he himself will drink from the wrong trophy head one day.

As to Baine, I think he's been sidelined to build Garrosh up, but by that same action, if he's as "wise" as he's been promoted, then he's also learning a hell of a lot more about where and how to lead then we've given credence.

This however is mostly speculation on my part, because honestly there's not enough information on Baine's part in the rebellion and we obviously haven't had a chance to read through the full story of Shadows. So, while these are my best extrapolations, they are only as good as the small chunk of data I have can provide.
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  #82  
Old 06-08-2013, 06:55 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Well, if the contrasts between certain of the troll loas/gods are anything to go by, they can range from fairly benign teachers who share knowledge in return for respect, to domineering Soulflayers who expect obeisance and gruesome tribute in exchange for their favor.

The latter offer more bang for your blood-drenched buck (as with Hakkar helping the Gurubashi rise to prominence in the wake of the Sundering), but such a relationship results in the beneficiary having to rely on them wholly for true power while also being obligated to feed their spiritual backing with sacrifices.

Just look at Gongo, who had to basically argue with the other loas as they were resistant to helping the Darkspears. Yet for reasons that have yet to be fully explained, Gongo alone insisted upon teaching some of the Darkspears how to use druidism, a form of magic that doesn't require gods or spirits

(Just a personal theory here, but I suspect it may have to do with Gongo being a raptor loa, and the Darkspears considering their raptors allies and friends rather than just pets or beasts of burden.)

Not all loas are the same, and it's feasible that some of them actually care about the Darkspears out of an earnest desire for them to succeed and thrive rather than from an expectation of worship and tribute.

It's kind of like the difference between "giving a troll a fish" and "teaching a troll to fish"; the most powerful loas could well offer the former while jealously clinging to the latter, while a scant few who opt for the reverse may be willing to help the Darkspears wean themselves off of dependence upon the former.

After all, for the Zandalar Empire to have been ruled by the priest caste, it suggests that their gods may have been doing a lot of the heavy lifting. One could even speculate that the Gurubashi and Amani might have had to leave and form thier own nations because their desires for more self-actuated conquest was at odds with the Zandalari way of expecting the loas to tell them what they should do.
I think you mean Gonk, but yeah, it does seem as though the ranges in character and personalities between loa seem to be just as wide as the definition of the word loa itself.

Bwonsamdi, given that his domain is death and the dead, may have a more sinister personality to go with his set of powers (I don't think it's entirely clear whether he's a psychopomp of some kind or if influence goes beyond ferrying and watching over the dead).

Might be just because they were out of their element, but the Amani loa conjured by the Zandalari in Northrend for their counsel seemed fairly benign. No threats, no demands for sacrifices, just vaguely cryptic advice on how to proceed.

Animalistic loa, their Troll counterparts, and those like Hakkar (assuming there are any others in the same category) may well have different proclivities.

Last edited by Kellick; 06-08-2013 at 07:01 PM..
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  #83  
Old 06-08-2013, 07:02 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
For Vol'jin, the Loa give him their power. If he disrespects them by going against their wishes (as this excerpt implies), he's basically giving up a portion of his ability to keep power in the Horde at all. Either way though, with his rebellion in 5.3, he's creating a rift between himself and those Horde members who aren't ultra-loyalists to Garrosh...but for whom they give respect for his pursuit of Horde dominance. It's exactly this kind of rift that caused the problems of the Old Horde, with too many factions brewing trouble beneath the Warchief. Vol'jin might be able to quell public uprisings, but he's certainly not going to be able to lead if there's just as much a chance he himself will drink from the wrong trophy head one day.

As to Baine, I think he's been sidelined to build Garrosh up, but by that same action, if he's as "wise" as he's been promoted, then he's also learning a hell of a lot more about where and how to lead then we've given credence.

This however is mostly speculation on my part, because honestly there's not enough information on Baine's part in the rebellion and we obviously haven't had a chance to read through the full story of Shadows. So, while these are my best extrapolations, they are only as good as the small chunk of data I have can provide.
I suppose, but Thrall managed to lead pretty well, when the story chose to focus on that, despite his power being similar dependent upon the whims of certain spirits who could withdraw their assistance any time they wanted.

But whatever the case, we'll see how Vol'jin's relation with the Loa develops here. We don't really know what Bwonsamdi's goal here is either, but it strikes me as a sort of test. The Loa have offered Vol'jin visions of riches and glory to test him before.

I suppose we'll have to wait about a month to find out.
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  #84  
Old 06-08-2013, 08:15 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I suppose, but Thrall managed to lead pretty well
*glances at the horde forces in Ashenvale, the Forsaken running rampant, lack of development in durotar*

Yeah no.
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  #85  
Old 06-09-2013, 02:34 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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Bwonsamdi stood above him, a titanic figure,
A coincidental turn of phrase, or a big honking clue?
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  #86  
Old 06-09-2013, 06:16 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
*glances at the horde forces in Ashenvale, the Forsaken running rampant, lack of development in durotar*

Yeah no.
I think his point was that Thrall's powers being ultimately dependent on fickle third party forces had no impact on his leadership (Save when the world was exploding and he had to step down, of course), and that Vol'jin's martial prowess being dependent on the Loa should similarly have no impact on his ability to lead outside combat.

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A coincidental turn of phrase, or a big honking clue?
Probably just a prettier turn of phrase than "big-ass figure".
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  #87  
Old 06-09-2013, 06:18 AM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Probably just a prettier turn of phrase than "big-ass figure".
They could've used gigantic
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  #88  
Old 06-09-2013, 07:12 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
*glances at the horde forces in Ashenvale, the Forsaken running rampant, lack of development in durotar*

Yeah no.
I believe I noted that this only applied when the story bothered to pay attention to him. He can't act without the writers allowing him to so I feel it's a little unfair to judge him by what he didn't do when no one was making him do anything.

Like with Lor'themar. We shouldn't assume his worth from the years he spent being under utilized, but by the times when he was actually doing things and how he came across then. The same goes for Vol'jin and Baine.

Their inaction only tells us that the writers simply haven't written anything for them to do, unless of course they're deliberately written and shown as being inactive.

Baine's done some cool things, like when he retook Thunderbluff, but he's also shown himself to be incredibly naive and merely exiled the traitor who was responsible for his father's death and many others. A traitor who never gave any sign of seizing to be a dangerous potential threat. And since then he has only repeated this sort of thing and this attitude of his has only ever had negative results.


In comparison, when the writers finally came around to Vol'jin he similarly retook his city from traitors. And killed them. This is despite having apparently had a much closer relationship with the traitor than Baine ever did. Also, when his lands were once again invaded by their ancestral enemy he didn't try to appease them with offerings like Baine did. Instead he took real action and eliminated the threat.

And when people mention that the Darkspear's were chased off their original home by Murlocs... Well, they're forgetting that it wasn't just the Trolls who were chased off nor was it the Murlocs that chased them off. Staying and fighting while the island you're on is being sunk beneath the ocean would just be suicide.
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  #89  
Old 06-09-2013, 08:54 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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He still fucked up the Neeru Fireblade thing and the the Horde's non-existent stance on slavery :\
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  #90  
Old 06-09-2013, 08:58 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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He still fucked up the Neeru Fireblade thing and the the Horde's non-existent stance on slavery :\
Right, but none of that had to do with the fact Thrall gets his strength from the elements, which was the tie-in to this entire segue.
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  #91  
Old 06-09-2013, 10:49 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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He still fucked up the Neeru Fireblade thing and the the Horde's non-existent stance on slavery :\
I don't see how he fucked up with Neeru. If anything his treatment of him was brilliant by warcraft standards.

He had the player kill a Burning Blade lieutenant, take his insignia and report to Neeru. Neeru then revealed his true face (though Thrall was onto him before that) and revealed his key cohorts (the other orc warlock and the satyr). Then he had you kill them and go back to Neeru, now without his buddies he turns to you, his supposed lieutenant and says that you and him will fix this and make the Burning Blade Cult greater than ever before.

Hence Thrall had effectively made the Cult impotent while placing his agent high in their ranks to thwart any future plans. All of that without any heavy handed police action which would only have driven the cult deep underground, just cunning and intrigue.

It was one of the best questlines in Horde during Vanilla/TBC.
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  #92  
Old 06-09-2013, 10:59 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Ah yes so impotent that they continued their operations all through kalimdor effectively unimpeded for five years.

His whole "monitor Neeru and cut the head of the snake off' plan never WENT ANYWHERE.

Or did you miss how they're still active in Durotar and raiding Caravans in the barrens?
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  #93  
Old 06-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Hence Thrall had effectively made the Cult impotent while placing his agent high in their ranks to thwart any future plans. All of that without any heavy handed police action which would only have driven the cult deep underground, just cunning and intrigue.

It was one of the best questlines in Horde during Vanilla/TBC.
It was indeed cool, especially if you played as an orcish warlock, making the "convincing Neeru to let you into the cult" element realistic!

I wonder what is Neeru's status now, given his new dialogue and lack of involvement in Burning Blade quests. Is he still plotting, or did he really turn a new leaf?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragetotem
His whole "monitor Neeru and cut the head of the snake off' plan never WENT ANYWHERE.
His whole plan was about finding leads on the new Shadow Council's activity, which Neeru was. You later discover and fight the Shadow Council throughout Vanilla and TBC levelling.
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  #94  
Old 06-09-2013, 02:26 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Ah yes so impotent that they continued their operations all through kalimdor effectively unimpeded for five years.

His whole "monitor Neeru and cut the head of the snake off' plan never WENT ANYWHERE.

Or did you miss how they're still active in Durotar and raiding Caravans in the barrens?
That is standard Blizzard writing.

They loathe to give up themes. Which is why orcs even had warlock problems to begin with, a highly unreasonable development imo. Also why they had to deal with those retarded Kul Tiras survivors which should have been mopped up by the military proper before WoW even began.
Or how the Scarlet Crusade has spent three locations being murdered horribly by everyone only to remain a force in Cataclysm.

Blizzard has shit writing in WoW, one of which's major components is the above mentioned unwillingness to let go of past plots (orcs v humans anyone?). I am honestly begging to feel frustrated with fans who won't get this. Lore is crap, either learn to work within the boundaries of that or gtfo.
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  #95  
Old 06-09-2013, 03:09 PM
Arbourean Arbourean is offline

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Or organizations there were obliterated 5 years ago in game and yet are retconned back into existence come back stronger than ever under the auspice of a teenaged girl somehow brilliant enough to outwit an entire nation.
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