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  #751  
Old 03-07-2016, 07:31 PM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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Sorry for the copy paste, just looking for any more information on the following conversation, if there is any.


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Kanrethad Ebonlocke says: I tire of your evasive babble, doomguard. Explain to me why you and your kind are drawn to sacrificial magics.
Doomguard says: My contract is to fight for you, not to reveal the legion's secrets, mortal.
Kanrethad Ebonlocke yells: Do not attempt to deceive me, demon!
Kanrethad Ebonlocke yells: Your kind far predates Sargeras's betrayal. What WERE you?
Jubeka Shadowbreaker says: This knowledge is useless... what are you trying to achieve, Kanrethad?
Kanrethad Ebonlocke yells: STAY OUT OF THIS! The demon will answer, NOW!
Doomguard says: What an odd demand. Not even my own kind care about our origins. Why should you?
Kanrethad Ebonlocke says: If you do not care then there is no harm telling me.
Doomguard says: ...before Sargeras freed us, we were the Titan's hounds. Forever enslaved to police the use of arcane magics.
Doomguard says: Sacrificial magic was considered the greatest violation of life and we were attuned to instantly punish those who delved into such... delicious sorcery.
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  #752  
Old 03-07-2016, 08:36 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by HackBenjamin View Post
Sorry for the copy paste, just looking for any more information on the following conversation, if there is any.
There's nothing to really corroborate this story, but there's also not really much to debunk it. The only policing that the Pantheon is said to participate in was the containment of demonkind, a job that fell to Sargeras and Aggramar, so the element of "policing arcane magic" doesn't have any evidence to support it.

The mechanism of Sargeras being able to turn non-demonic races into demons, though, adds some plausibility. If the Doomguards were a race that the Pantheon employed (much as they employed the constellar) then it would make sense that after the Pantheon's destruction, Sargeras could have repurposed them for his own needs. However, nothing about the Doomguards nature as anything other than shock troops for the Legion is ever mentioned.

So there's some plausibility, but nothing concrete.
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  #753  
Old 03-07-2016, 09:44 PM
Baldrec Baldrec is offline

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Human Kingdom Histories?

How much is there on Stromgarde and Kul Tiras? Does it give a location or map of the exact boundaries/borders?

Is there anything hinting at current stories?
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  #754  
Old 03-07-2016, 10:44 PM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
First, there is nothing in Chronicle to substantiate the notion that the Wild Gods gave rise to particular races. NOTHING links the yaungol/tauren to a bull Wild God.
Tauren descending from a bull Ancient is in the WoW Magazine. It's canon until retconned. The Ancients are Wild Gods.

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Second, the exact text indicates that Freya created her enclaves around areas where the Well's waters pooled, including the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, Un'Goro Crater, and Sholazar Basin. The Wild Gods were among the natural entities that emerged from those enclaves, but it IS left unclear if she molded them personally. Freya DID adopt the Wild Gods and link them with the Emerald Dream, however. (EDIT: okay, needed to review the text and it IS a bit ambiguous.)
That section is divided into two parts. Freya and others. Wild Gods are part of the Freya part. The greatest creatures to emerge from where Freya molded life were the Wild Gods. No other creatures are mentioned. This part is finalized with "As Freya's creations explored the world, they came across a number of other strange life-forms." as it transitions into things Freya didn't create. Namely, the former elementals turned flesh.

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It is sorely inaccurate to call the Wild Gods constructs of the Titans, as they were not constructed in the same manner as the keepers or other titan-forged.
I didn't say anything about them being titan-forged. I said they were related to the titans and created by Freya which she did by molding life.

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Third, NOTHING substantiates the idea that the yaungol were affected by the Well of Eternity and "turned in tauren." Chronicle delineates that yaungol are the original race, and the portion of that race that returned to central Kalimdor AFTER their enslavement by the mogu became tauren, while the portion that went north to Northrend would become the taunka.
The Well accelerated evolution, especially around it in the center of Kalimdor.
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  #755  
Old 03-07-2016, 11:02 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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Since their deaths didn't create new wells of eternity, did we not really kill C'thun and Yogg Saron? Are they from the Twisting Nether and need to be killed there?
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  #756  
Old 03-07-2016, 11:22 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by AndyJP View Post
Since their deaths didn't create new wells of eternity, did we not really kill C'thun and Yogg Saron? Are they from the Twisting Nether and need to be killed there?
Most of us have always assumed those were avatars, or at least i think so, but even if they werent, Y'shaarj death caused the WoE because he ripped him off from the ground, which we obviously cant do

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  #757  
Old 03-08-2016, 12:08 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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nah the old gods are from the east side so they can't be killed yo
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  #758  
Old 03-08-2016, 12:32 AM
alia alia is offline

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Originally Posted by AndyJP View Post
Are they from the Twisting Nether and need to be killed there?
The OGs are not demons and are not from the TN - they are from the same plane as Azeroth (the Great Dark), though their formation and true nature is a bit of a mystery still it would seem.
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  #759  
Old 03-08-2016, 05:39 AM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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The OGs are not demons and are not from the TN - they are from the same plane as Azeroth (the Great Dark), though their formation and true nature is a bit of a mystery still it would seem.
They were formed by the Void Lords because the Void Lords can't leave the Void so needed minions in the Great Dark.
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  #760  
Old 03-08-2016, 06:21 AM
Tazzbah Tazzbah is offline

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I agree with Aquamonkey interpretation.

It's not defined what "molding life" means, but it can be anything, from merging DNA, to sculpting statues with life magic.

So, Freya did an initial group of these beings, using an array of tools and elements.

This initial group of creatures evolved, creating a second generation of creatures, then a third, etc.

We don't know for sure where the Wild Gods sit on these generations of creatures: maybe they were the very first one (like Yu'lon being sculpted from a statue), maybe they were in the last one (like a bear evolving into Ursoc with the Well energies).

Anyway, at the end, all these groups of creatures are called Freya's "creations", the Wild Gods being "the greatest" of them.
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  #761  
Old 03-08-2016, 06:59 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Let's just all agree to disagree till someone can get Matt Burns to confirm or deny their interpretation, k?
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  #762  
Old 03-08-2016, 07:18 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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As per the Chronicle the goblins were made from an experiment of a Keeper, right? Was there at any point any Old God connection / involvement? There is a faceless one that remembers their creation as per the Lost Isle questing.
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  #763  
Old 03-08-2016, 07:36 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Mordecay View Post
As per the Chronicle the goblins were made from an experiment of a Keeper, right? Was there at any point any Old God connection / involvement? There is a faceless one that remembers their creation as per the Lost Isle questing.
Doesn't he just say that he remembers when they were created, to show them how old he is?
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  #764  
Old 03-08-2016, 08:58 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
Tauren descending from a bull Ancient is in the WoW Magazine. It's canon until retconned. The Ancients are Wild Gods.
Yes, the Ancients are Wild Gods.

Yes, relationships between particular ancients and similar races are established in an article in the WoW Magazine. However, some caveats:

1) It's being written from the in-universe perspective of Brann Bronzebeard. There is always the possibility that his information is wrong. Which leads us to...

2) The Tribunal of Ages is established in Chronicle as being full of corrupted information. Since we don't know what exact information Brann got from the Tribunal, that calls ALL of his non-sourced information into question.

3) Brann's information states that the tauren say they predate the Titans. Chronicles establishes that a) no life existed on Azeroth prior to the Titans that wasn't spawned by the Old Gods and b) the tauren cultural memory was severely damaged by their enslavement by the mogu.

I agree with Nazja that this probably won't be settled until someone from CDev offers an answer (or says 'wait til Vol 2') but the core of my argument is this: if Chronicles is intended to be the new, definitive edition of the Warcraft canon, then that calls ALL prior canon materials into some degree of doubt. Brann's Journal has a lot of marks against it, which makes me doubt it more than some other sources.
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  #765  
Old 03-08-2016, 09:11 AM
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I agree with Nazja that this probably won't be settled until someone from CDev offers an answer (or says 'wait til Vol 2') but the core of my argument is this: if Chronicles is intended to be the new, definitive edition of the Warcraft canon, then that calls ALL prior canon materials into some degree of doubt. Brann's Journal has a lot of marks against it, which makes me doubt it more than some other sources.
Probably a good rule of thumb for everyone to follow. It took some folks a while to get used to the RPG becoming non Canon so I expect there will be a few folks that have trouble letting go of the Magazine and the odd bits we got from Twitter (many of which likely still count as Canon, but if it's not in the Chronicle, best to treat it with a pinch of salt)
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  #766  
Old 03-08-2016, 09:42 AM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
1) It's being written from the in-universe perspective of Brann Bronzebeard. There is always the possibility that his information is wrong. Which leads us to...

2) The Tribunal of Ages is established in Chronicle as being full of corrupted information. Since we don't know what exact information Brann got from the Tribunal, that calls ALL of his non-sourced information into question.
Brann's anthropology isn't solely based on the Tribunal. His research is based on a broad range of sources. Some things are noted to be speculation like Walrus to tuskarr or Lobster Ancient to makrura. Other items are solid and backed by whatever evidence Brann uncovered on his journeys.

Yes, there is the possibility of error, just like RL anthropology. But we still take that research seriously. In the absence of anything countering his conclusions, Brann's research is the most definitive we have.

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3) Brann's information states that the tauren say they predate the Titans. Chronicles establishes that a) no life existed on Azeroth prior to the Titans that wasn't spawned by the Old Gods and b) the tauren cultural memory was severely damaged by their enslavement by the mogu.
It wasn't just Brann's info, the CDevs said it too. This is not a case of flavor lore, it is a straight retcon.

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Probably a good rule of thumb for everyone to follow. It took some folks a while to get used to the RPG becoming non Canon so I expect there will be a few folks that have trouble letting go of the Magazine and the odd bits we got from Twitter (many of which likely still count as Canon, but if it's not in the Chronicle, best to treat it with a pinch of salt)
It is the definitive source, but it is impossible to be all-encompassing. There are gaps which are deferred to older lore. That's how lore has always been treated. Just because something new comes out, it doesn't discount everything that came before except in the the things that new bit addresses. RPG in its entirety was declared non-canon.
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  #767  
Old 03-08-2016, 10:06 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post

It is the definitive source, but it is impossible to be all-encompassing. There are gaps which are deferred to older lore. That's how lore has always been treated. Just because something new comes out, it doesn't discount everything that came before except in the the things that new bit addresses. RPG in its entirety was declared non-canon.
I agree it's impossible for Chronicle to be all-encompassing, and that CDev hasn't openly de-canonized all pre-Chronicle sources, as they did with the RPG.

I'm saying that Chronicle casts some doubt on the veracity of Brann's Journal, and I'm less willing to adhere to that older lore in this case.
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  #768  
Old 03-08-2016, 10:58 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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I find it a little odd that there was no mention of Anima, considering it was referenced as a key component in shaping life. Did they speak to blood magic at all?
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  #769  
Old 03-08-2016, 11:10 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Anything on the Shifting Sands, or the Night Elf empire fighting the trolls?
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  #770  
Old 03-08-2016, 11:26 AM
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Is it no life existed on Azeroth before the Old gods, or no intelligent, non elemental life? Like bugs and other primitive organisms could still be there?
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  #771  
Old 03-08-2016, 11:58 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Anything on the Shifting Sands, or the Night Elf empire fighting the trolls?
Shifting Sands gets recapped, through I don't think there are any notable changes.

The only specific interaction between the trolls and the kaldorei is an instance of Azshara agreeing to let the Zandalari keep their mountain if they convince the other troll tribes from encroaching on night elf lands. Nothing is mentioned about any more large-scale wars or engagements.

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I find it a little odd that there was no mention of Anima, considering it was referenced as a key component in shaping life. Did they speak to blood magic at all?
The self-destructive, life-consuming aspects of fel magic likely encapsulate blood magic, though I don't think anything is explicitly stated to that extent. Blood magic doesn't come up.

As for why anima wan't covered, it may simply be a detail that doesn't have any relevance elsewhere in the narrative. Exactly how the mogu did flesh-shaping wasn't explicated, so anima could still be a part of that.

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Is it no life existed on Azeroth before the Old gods, or no intelligent, non elemental life? Like bugs and other primitive organisms could still be there?
Order of operations go that it was the Elementals first (which none of them were delineated as being anything other than elemental spirits), then the Old Gods come in with their n'raqi and aqir. Then the Titans rolled in with the Keepers and the titan-forged, kicked the crap out of everyone, and Freya created her enclaves for life, while some life (aka protodragons) ended up emerging from elemental spirits that weren't sealed up in the planes.

Azeroth is never specifically defined as "lifeless" prior to all of that, but that could also be because the presence of the world-soul counted as life.
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Last edited by MisterCrow; 03-08-2016 at 12:03 PM..
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  #772  
Old 03-08-2016, 12:03 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have heard we have a new canon name for the pre corruption Duskwood. Is that true?
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  #773  
Old 03-08-2016, 12:05 PM
Kromash Kromash is offline

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I have heard we have a new canon name for the pre corruption Duskwood. Is that true?
Yep. Brightwood, Shinewood or something. I think it was Brightwood.
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  #774  
Old 03-08-2016, 12:05 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I have heard we have a new canon name for the pre corruption Duskwood. Is that true?
Brightwood
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  #775  
Old 03-08-2016, 12:06 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Brightwood
Cool. Thank you.
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