Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > World of WarCraft Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #7101  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:29 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,553

Default

Alright, answer me this. I haven’t actually gotten around to doing the Alliance War campaign in Vol’dun, so I might be missing something, but what is Vol’dun’s military significance? What objective is the Alliance pursuing there that necessitates purging the Vulpera?

-A strategic strike point against Zuldazar, where the Zandalari fleet is stationed and where the Horde launches their various attacks on Kul’tiras from? Don’t make me laugh. Why march your army across a freaking desert when you have demonstrably better avenues of attack as evidence by the upcoming raid.

-Securing resources/denying the Horde resources? The Horde isn’t actually getting any resources out of Vol’dun. It’s a freaking desert.

-Attacking Horde military installations: there aren’t any significant Horde or even Zandalari military installations to attack.
Reply With Quote
  #7102  
Old 10-18-2018, 11:36 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,690
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default

Why do you defend this like it’s intelligent writing?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #7103  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:31 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,378
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Alright, answer me this. I haven’t actually gotten around to doing the Alliance War campaign in Vol’dun, so I might be missing something, but what is Vol’dun’s military significance? What objective is the Alliance pursuing there that necessitates purging the Vulpera?

-A strategic strike point against Zuldazar, where the Zandalari fleet is stationed and where the Horde launches their various attacks on Kul’tiras from? Don’t make me laugh. Why march your army across a freaking desert when you have demonstrably better avenues of attack as evidence by the upcoming raid.

-Securing resources/denying the Horde resources? The Horde isn’t actually getting any resources out of Vol’dun. It’s a freaking desert.

-Attacking Horde military installations: there aren’t any significant Horde or even Zandalari military installations to attack.
Did you not notice that the main Alliance base in Vol'dun is a huge fucking port? The fact that Vol'dun is pretty much ignored by the Zandalari government and military makes it an excellent staging point for a naval attack (like the upcoming raid) as it's only a short boat ride to Zuldazar. Shatterstone Harbor is basically the Alliance's largest outpost on Zandalar, compare it to their tiny camps in Zuldazar and Nazmir.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7104  
Old 10-19-2018, 07:38 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,553

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Did you not notice that the main Alliance base in Vol'dun is a huge fucking port? The fact that Vol'dun is pretty much ignored by the Zandalari government and military makes it an excellent staging point for a naval attack (like the upcoming raid) as it's only a short boat ride to Zuldazar. Shatterstone Harbor is basically the Alliance's largest outpost on Zandalar, compare it to their tiny camps in Zuldazar and Nazmir.
Ok, thank you. As best as I can understand you, the Alliance military objective is the establishment of a naval staging ground and support for naval operations throughout Zandalar. A worthy military goal.

Now, I will admit, I’m much less familiar with the Law of Naval (or is it Maritime?) Warfare than I am with the Law of Land Warfare. Furthermore, I realize that the Geneva Conventions and The Hague did not happen on Azeroth. Despite both these deficiencies, the basic underlying principles should still apply, and I don’t think anyone here needs to be a JAG Officer to understand these principles. The principles are Military Necessity and Porportionality, and Avoiding Unnecessary Suffering.

So, how is purging the Vulpera necessary to the naval objectives of the Alliance in Vol’dun and Zandalar?
How is purging the Vulpera proportional to acts of aggression performed by the Vulpera or to the threat that they pose?
Is the suffering caused by the purging of the Vulpera necessary?

On a semi related note, I’ve made no secret of my hopes for Saurfang to become Warchief. I think the first thing he should do is establish a Code of War. Actually, my phone’s autocorrect tried to put in “Code of Warcraft.” I almost like that name better.
Reply With Quote
  #7105  
Old 10-19-2018, 07:40 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

Arch-Druid
Rhllor's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,030

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Alright, answer me this. I haven’t actually gotten around to doing the Alliance War campaign in Vol’dun, so I might be missing something, but what is Vol’dun’s military significance? What objective is the Alliance pursuing there that necessitates purging the Vulpera?

-A strategic strike point against Zuldazar, where the Zandalari fleet is stationed and where the Horde launches their various attacks on Kul’tiras from? Don’t make me laugh. Why march your army across a freaking desert when you have demonstrably better avenues of attack as evidence by the upcoming raid.

-Securing resources/denying the Horde resources? The Horde isn’t actually getting any resources out of Vol’dun. It’s a freaking desert.

-Attacking Horde military installations: there aren’t any significant Horde or even Zandalari military installations to attack.
what was the strategic value for the axis of invading greece? perhaps the alliance saw that the Vulpera were friendly with the Horde and wanted to defeat the Vulpera quickly so they would not be a threat in the future and that they would have the flank of Vol'dun protected.

the alliance launches a ground offensive from nazmir a possible attack Vulpera from voldun could ruin their plans

the invasion of countries that are friends of your enemies even if they are not at war with your state is not something strange, Napoleon invaded Portugal for being friend of England
__________________

Last edited by Rhllor; 10-19-2018 at 07:46 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7106  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:47 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,378
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Ok, thank you. As best as I can understand you, the Alliance military objective is the establishment of a naval staging ground and support for naval operations throughout Zandalar. A worthy military goal.

Now, I will admit, I’m much less familiar with the Law of Naval (or is it Maritime?) Warfare than I am with the Law of Land Warfare. Furthermore, I realize that the Geneva Conventions and The Hague did not happen on Azeroth. Despite both these deficiencies, the basic underlying principles should still apply, and I don’t think anyone here needs to be a JAG Officer to understand these principles. The principles are Military Necessity and Porportionality, and Avoiding Unnecessary Suffering.

So, how is purging the Vulpera necessary to the naval objectives of the Alliance in Vol’dun and Zandalar?
How is purging the Vulpera proportional to acts of aggression performed by the Vulpera or to the threat that they pose?
Is the suffering caused by the purging of the Vulpera necessary?

On a semi related note, I’ve made no secret of my hopes for Saurfang to become Warchief. I think the first thing he should do is establish a Code of War. Actually, my phone’s autocorrect tried to put in “Code of Warcraft.” I almost like that name better.
It could be as simple as "The Horde have some weak allies with bases near our main port, it shouldn't take many troops to wipe them out but it will reduce the unlikely chance of an assault from them to zero." The only real downside to attacking the Vulpera is ethical, really, and news doesn't travel that fast in a desert, especially if you kill the nomads who link its settlements together.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7107  
Old 10-19-2018, 01:04 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

Arch-Druid
Reinhardt's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,059

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
what was the strategic value for the axis of invading greece?
I think the main intent of the Greco-Italian War was comedy.
Reply With Quote
  #7108  
Old 10-19-2018, 02:49 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,923

Default Comic by Estigia Kinslayer.

Reply With Quote
  #7109  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:39 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

Hippogryph
Mungo's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 185

Default

When has Elune actually aided the night elves though? Besides that part implying she stayed Sylvanas' from slaying Malfurion(and that was just a single individual), I can't think of any.
Reply With Quote
  #7110  
Old 10-19-2018, 07:01 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,006

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
When has Elune actually aided the night elves though? Besides that part implying she stayed Sylvanas' from slaying Malfurion(and that was just a single individual), I can't think of any.
I mean predominately Elune is the goddess of the Sentinel Army, so I suppose any time they won a battle or were spared it was Elune's hand at work. In their minds anyway.

They sort of wiggle-waggle back and forth over whether Elune is a member of a Pantheon and just happens to favour the Night Elven warriors who pray to her, or a monotheistic god who is all knowing and all powerful, though. So who... knows really.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #7111  
Old 10-19-2018, 08:20 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Eternal
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,657

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
When has Elune actually aided the night elves though? Besides that part implying she stayed Sylvanas' from slaying Malfurion(and that was just a single individual), I can't think of any.
Every time a Priestess or Priest of Elune uses their power, it's from Elune. You might say the same for the Druids of the Moon (Balance).
__________________
Daelin was right.
Reply With Quote
  #7112  
Old 10-19-2018, 09:21 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,553

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
It could be as simple as "The Horde have some weak allies with bases near our main port, it shouldn't take many troops to wipe them out but it will reduce the unlikely chance of an assault from them to zero." The only real downside to attacking the Vulpera is ethical, really, and news doesn't travel that fast in a desert, especially if you kill the nomads who link its settlements together.
That fails rather miserably on proportionality and on avoiding undue suffering, and I’m dubious of it being a military necessity.

That would be like the U.S. wiping out an entire village (or even a group of villages) in Afghanistan outside their FOB because they thought the locals were sympathetic to the Taliban, despite no acts of agression coming from the village.
Reply With Quote
  #7113  
Old 10-19-2018, 10:01 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,481
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
avoiding undue suffering
Not in my Warcraft
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7114  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:08 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

Ranger
Fenixhart's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 315

Default

It's just...so stupid.

I want this expansion to be over already or at least get to the Old God phase so we can put a kaibosh on the pipeline of bullshit that someone in Blizzard is so desperately trying to make WoW into Warhammer.
Reply With Quote
  #7115  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:35 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,923

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
That fails rather miserably on proportionality and on avoiding undue suffering, and I’m dubious of it being a military necessity.

That would be like the U.S. wiping out an entire village (or even a group of villages) in Afghanistan outside their FOB because they thought the locals were sympathetic to the Taliban, despite no acts of agression coming from the village.
People rightfully criticized Blizzard for claiming that both sides would be morally grey in BFA and not delivering, so it's interesting to see this reaction to the Alliance's darker side finally being shown.

Is the attack on the vulpera morally questionable? Undoubtedly, but is it evil? Not really.

The last time the Alliance aided neutral races who were sympathetic to the Horde cause, those races not only joined the Horde (which by itself isn't too bad) but also helped start a war against the Alliance and nearly annihilate one of its races. The very same Alliance race that had invested the largest amount of resources into aiding one of these two races, even, and was loosely allied with both. The night elves bled to save the Nightborne and received only pain, suffering and contempt as a reward for it...
(It's still hilarious that Tyrande asked for assurances from Thalyssra to insure that her aid was well invested, only for Thalyssra to get offended and do the thing Tyrande was worried about: becoming another thorn in her hide. )

So here we are. The vulpera, while not yet officially having joined the Horde, are not only friendly towards it but owe it a debt; they were saved by it. They might not be hostile right now, but as far as the Alliance should be able to tell, this is just a matter of time. Should the Alliance attack the Horde on Zandalar, what prevents the vulpera from paying back their debt and aiding the Horde drive them back? Better to just eliminate a potential enemy before it has the chance to turn into a real threat.
Reply With Quote
  #7116  
Old 10-20-2018, 07:28 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,210

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
People rightfully criticized Blizzard for claiming that both sides would be morally grey in BFA and not delivering, so it's interesting to see this reaction to the Alliance's darker side finally being shown.

Is the attack on the vulpera morally questionable? Undoubtedly, but is it evil? Not really.

The last time the Alliance aided neutral races who were sympathetic to the Horde cause, those races not only joined the Horde (which by itself isn't too bad) but also helped start a war against the Alliance and nearly annihilate one of its races. The very same Alliance race that had invested the largest amount of resources into aiding one of these two races, even, and was loosely allied with both. The night elves bled to save the Nightborne and received only pain, suffering and contempt as a reward for it...
(It's still hilarious that Tyrande asked for assurances from Thalyssra to insure that her aid was well invested, only for Thalyssra to get offended and do the thing Tyrande was worried about: becoming another thorn in her hide. )

So here we are. The vulpera, while not yet officially having joined the Horde, are not only friendly towards it but owe it a debt; they were saved by it. They might not be hostile right now, but as far as the Alliance should be able to tell, this is just a matter of time. Should the Alliance attack the Horde on Zandalar, what prevents the vulpera from paying back their debt and aiding the Horde drive them back? Better to just eliminate a potential enemy before it has the chance to turn into a real threat.
What bothers me is not the Alliance doing bad stuff. I do think the Alliance need some evil commanders and desperate measures. What really bothers me is how unnecessary it feels. It's a waste of military resources to attack such a low-key threat, unless the world quest has an Alliance-side version that explains what is happening and gives it a good reason for the attack.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #7117  
Old 10-20-2018, 07:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,923

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
What bothers me is not the Alliance doing bad stuff. I do think the Alliance need some evil commanders and desperate measures. What really bothers me is how unnecessary it feels. It's a waste of military resources to attack such a low-key threat, unless the world quest has an Alliance-side version that explains what is happening and gives it a good reason for the attack.
This is one of the big issues with incursions. They are way too one sided.

You don't know what the motivations of the enemy faction, commanders and troops are. You don't know whether they are following orders, going against them or simply doing their own thing.
Reply With Quote
  #7118  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:37 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,006

Default

I really wish they'd stop worrying about who's "morally grey" and all this nonsense and just tell the story as it should be. I really don't care about this tit for tat stuff, or making the player feel like THEY'RE the hero and the goodly one.

Just. tell. the. story.

I love the intro to 8.1 because Anduin is literally not doing anything wrong, he just does not have the troops to send to Kalimdor to help the Night Elves, but rightfully so that pisses the Night Elves off.

That's logical, logistical, sensible, creates a natural conflict between the two factions. But the response is measured. You don't see the writer's hands at work trying to pander to the story forums or whatever.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #7119  
Old 10-20-2018, 09:44 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

Ranger
Fenixhart's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 315

Default

It's more that the Alliance's one saving grace was that unlike the Horde it wasn't being "Shoot first ask later" stupid and was instead being the "More Tolerant that it ever should be" stupid.

And now we're here with them Jackbooting a neutral race on a "maybe" with things called fucking PURGE SQUADS.

So they'll cease pursuit of their main objective because it makes them "no better than Sylvanas" if they follow through but hey, let's go and Slash and Burn the locals instead.

ARM is right when they say the Faction war turns everyone stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #7120  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:05 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,481
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I really wish they'd stop worrying about who's "morally grey" and all this nonsense and just tell the story as it should be. I really don't care about this tit for tat stuff, or making the player feel like THEY'RE the hero and the goodly one.

Just. tell. the. story.
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenixhart View Post
PURGE SQUADS
YES
__________________

Last edited by Krainz; 10-20-2018 at 10:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7121  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:58 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,923

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I really wish they'd stop worrying about who's "morally grey" and all this nonsense and just tell the story as it should be. I really don't care about this tit for tat stuff, or making the player feel like THEY'RE the hero and the goodly one.

Just. tell. the. story.
I myself do not care about which factions has the moral high ground either, so I do partially agree with you. On the other hand, I can also understand the players who do care about this kind of stuff. Whether that be because they hold Blizzard accountable for what they say during interviews and Q&As*, or because morals influenced their decision when they chose which faction they would prefer to play.

It's one of the big drawbacks of the medium. You can't simply tell a story, because you have to strike a balance between telling the story you want to tell and not displeasing playable race XYZ's fanbase too much. You want all of your players to have a fun experience and to feel like a hero (since that is what our characters are advertised as), which is why mind controlling undead humans in Tirisfal was such a big no-no. Not that Blizzard's solution was much better, if you care about the game's story at all.


*Ion's famous statement about both factions being morally grey comes to mind, which was not accurate when you looked at the state of 8.0 BFA.
Reply With Quote
  #7122  
Old 10-20-2018, 12:25 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,690
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default

We wouldn't be complaining about morality if Blizzard hadn't beaten us over the head for years on how we're supposed to be the heroes. Heroes wouldn't follow Sylvanas, or have purge squads. We wouldn't be complaining if they wrote these things from the start instead of lecturing us about morals and honor.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #7123  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:35 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

Arch-Druid
Reinhardt's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,059

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenixhart View Post
It's just...so stupid.

I want this expansion to be over already or at least get to the Old God phase so we can put a kaibosh on the pipeline of bullshit that someone in Blizzard is so desperately trying to make WoW into Warhammer.
Well they wanted since Warcraft 1, they just didn't get the license.
Reply With Quote
  #7124  
Old 10-20-2018, 04:49 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,553

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
What bothers me is not the Alliance doing bad stuff. I do think the Alliance need some evil commanders and desperate measures. What really bothers me is how unnecessary it feels. It's a waste of military resources to attack such a low-key threat, unless the world quest has an Alliance-side version that explains what is happening and gives it a good reason for the attack.
For incursions to be a thing, both factions must push into enemy territory in a hostile manner. The problem is Vol’dun isn’t really Horde territory. The Alliance already has a much stronger presence than the Horde in that area, which isn’t hard since the Horde has no real presence there. It would be more useful if maybe the Zandalari had a stronger presence, but since Jakrazet and his Furraki broke ties with the Zandalari, the closest thing the Alliance has to attack is the Vulpera. It’s really just gameplay dictating story, and the direction it’s pushing the Alliance is unethical bordering on genocidal.
Reply With Quote
  #7125  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:20 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 4,850
BattleTag: kam#1475

Default

I just know this will lead to reskinned gnomes being "allied race" while the horde get vulpera and sethrak, once again getting new, unique and high quality allied race models while the Alliance is stuck with reskins again

and the mouthbreathers here and on the forums will gloat because genocide is somehow not as bad as attacking furries
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch View Post
Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alliance whining, azeroth literally dying, battle for azeroth, for the whored, gilgoblins, mop 2.0 sucks, mop sucks, more like cata 2.0 sucks, quilboar bias, world of warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.