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  #5201  
Old 05-09-2018, 06:23 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5202  
Old 05-09-2018, 07:00 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
So let's talk about this.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=284237/b...-text-spoilers

Last night I was of the opinion that Tyrande's text did not provide sufficient context for an evaluation, and to an extent that's still true, but the more I let it sit, the worse it sounds. If Alliance leaders can just teleport as Tyrande apparently does in this scenario, where are the rest of them in this scenario? Is the Night Elf army really out of position as we've been lead to believe, or do they just go out with a whimper? Why does Tyrande so quickly believe Saurfang when he declares that she will just be killed at Teldrassil? Is she really in that much doubt of her own ability to lead her own forces, or her own forces ability to mount a defense after the Horde had been fighting for as long as it had? (It's also fair to ask, if the Night Elf leader doesn't believe that Night Elves are competent, why should the player?)

She believes there will be an occupation? Is she ordering the player character to declare a surrender then? Shouldn't she make sure of that? Or does she believe it's going to be destroyed? In that case, shouldn't she throw her attention into the rescue effort and have the player whisk Malfurion off to Stormwind? Where are her priorities here?

I get that this is going to get swept aside by the new ideas for Yrel, but I can't let this slip without comment. It's getting more and more concerning with each new release, and less and less likely that the Teldrassil scenario will come anywhere close to the benchmark set by the Horde's performance in the Fall of Lordaeron scenario.
I've always been bothered by the easy teleports that are only remembered when it's convenient for the plot.

That said, what really bothers me in that scenario is Saurfang. Honor should not be the same thing as stupid. Saving the Warchief, at that point, should not be dishonored, as it was not a formal duel, it's war. I just can't feel sympathy for Saurfang in that particular situation.

Maybe, instead, he sees Teldrassil blowing up and then realises everything is wrong. But sparing Malfurion makes no sense for a seasoned warrior like him, specially since he at that point feels the war is justified and is going along with it.

IMO, I think either Malfurion should die, or he should escape throught his own power, but still heavily wounded. The night elves losing Malfurion could lead to a new leadership (particularly, I'm tired of Tyrande as well).
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  #5203  
Old 05-09-2018, 07:12 AM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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Thank you, I was going to talk about that in my post, but couldn't find the right words.

It's stupid. And worse, it's a retcon that clashes with old lore. We've been using the Light safely since the beginning of the franchise, and suddenly it not only is corruptive, but it also starts happening everywhere.

It's one thing to have a fanatic group misunderstanding the Light. It's nice to see a naaru that is dangerous. But it's stupid to make the Light itself corruptive.

Scarlet Crusade was crazy because it was the Scarlet Crusade. They were desperate, surrounded by enemies, manipulated by demons. It was not just "oh, we are in peaceful times and you used too much Light, lol".

The Arakkoa Adherents were corrupted because they were assholes. They wanted the Light for themselves. It was not just "oh, the Light corrupted us".

And, to make matters worse, AU!Draenei still have the Auchenai, who deal with Shadow and should balance the Light, and the Rangari, who are pragmatists not linked to any magic power. If anything, the draenei should have been as divided as the orcs.
High Elves are dead, can't you just leave?

It's not a retcon, it's been brought up during the Alleria story.
It's not happening everywhere, people on Azeroth are still mostly saints.
It's not corruptive. They're taking all the Orcs in under the Light. It's a normalization and synchronisation, they follow the Light but to the extreme.
It's not "we used the Light too much, lol", it's Velen the mediator is gone, it's Nobundo the mediator never existing, maybe another X'era N'aaru, it's the race who were the MANARI, the bulk of a cosmic force who went on a "join us or be purged" crusade, who defected en masse to the Sargerei and treated the Broken like shit for being tainted.
The Auchenai were pretty much wiped out. The Rangari could just be hiding.

Last edited by Feltongue; 05-09-2018 at 07:14 AM..
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  #5204  
Old 05-09-2018, 07:37 AM
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High Elves are dead, can't you just leave?
No. If my presence bothers you, feel free to put me on ignore.
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  #5205  
Old 05-09-2018, 08:00 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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This is the same thing as the old gods undermining an existing character's personality by poking them with a tentacle. The naaru doing it doesn't make it suddenly deep. It's the same old tired corruption story as always.
No tentacle poking required. Just faith. The Legion has fallen, and through this timeskip we see how this has affected the priorities of the Naaru. It's no longer time to run, hide, or wage a guerilla war. It's time to build up and consolidate their forces. And they just got a three decade timeskip to work on that. This is what the Naaru in our own timeline are likely getting into right this very moment.

The Void is coming, and the greater good demands they not sit on their asses twiddling their thumbs.

So they tell Y'rel, their champion, to forge them an army. The Orcs are strong but uncultured, they breed fast and are many, but they don't see the threat on the horizon like they do. They're undisciplined and their savagery must be tamed. If they had more time, they wouldn't need to be so forceful, but they don't have the time. The Void won't let them have the time.

We need to do this now. Any later, and we're all tentacle fodder.

Trust us when we tell you this. This is the true war that we saved you for, that we build the Army of the Light for. Why doubt us now?

Last edited by Krakhed; 05-09-2018 at 08:03 AM..
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  #5206  
Old 05-09-2018, 08:05 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Scarlet Crusade was crazy because it was the Scarlet Crusade. They were desperate, surrounded by enemies, manipulated by demons. It was not just "oh, we are in peaceful times and you used too much Light, lol".
Actually, most of their initial leader where asshats long before the Crusade was formally found, with their prejudice of the "lesser races" and "unpure".

It was basically Alexandros Mograine, who kept them from going deep shit.
Yes, Balnazar's lead made them even more paranoid, but he just fueled a fire, that already existed.


Heck, the only thing that I'm blaming Blizzard, is that they are now going full Babylon 5 with the Draenei.

(As some people might remember, Velen was based on Valen. And the whole Light vs. Void thingy is basically Vorlons vs. Shadows.)
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  #5207  
Old 05-09-2018, 08:44 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
No tentacle poking required. Just faith. The Legion has fallen, and through this timeskip we see how this has affected the priorities of the Naaru. It's no longer time to run, hide, or wage a guerilla war. It's time to build up and consolidate their forces. And they just got a three decade timeskip to work on that. This is what the Naaru in our own timeline are likely getting into right this very moment.

The Void is coming, and the greater good demands they not sit on their asses twiddling their thumbs.

So they tell Y'rel, their champion, to forge them an army. The Orcs are strong but uncultured, they breed fast and are many, but they don't see the threat on the horizon like they do. They're undisciplined and their savagery must be tamed. If they had more time, they wouldn't need to be so forceful, but they don't have the time. The Void won't let them have the time.

We need to do this now. Any later, and we're all tentacle fodder.

Trust us when we tell you this. This is the true war that we saved you for, that we build the Army of the Light for. Why doubt us now?
The naaru wanting to do that is one thing (thought even then it's a little forced, as TBC naaru were way more tolerant of the existence of Shadow). The draenei just falling in line with that is what is troublesome.

I do hope there are hidden depths in this. The problem is that, once Blizzard puts lines that call back to Xe'ra and Illidan, it blows up any subtlety. Maybe my reaction would be way different if those copy/paste lines weren't there, making the draenei seem like drones. Even the goddamned Lightforged draenei seem to have more personality than that.
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  #5208  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:11 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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The naaru wanting to do that is one thing (thought even then it's a little forced, as TBC naaru were way more tolerant of the existence of Shadow). The draenei just falling in line with that is what is troublesome.

I do hope there are hidden depths in this. The problem is that, once Blizzard puts lines that call back to Xe'ra and Illidan, it blows up any subtlety. Maybe my reaction would be way different if those copy/paste lines weren't there, making the draenei seem like drones. Even the goddamned Lightforged draenei seem to have more personality than that.
The Legion was already handling the work of keeping the Void in check, though it was also suppressing the Light. Thing is, the Sha'tar aren't the whole of the Naaru. Xe'ra was never meant to be a one-off.

There have been Light-worshiping villains in literally every expansion of WoW. The thing here is that Y'rel doesn't have any reason to doubt the Naaru. From her perspective, she's receiving instructions from what are essentially her Gods. Gods she's been raised and taught to trust. It's similar to why the Orcs were so keen to follow their "ancestors", except Y'rel can likely tell that these are genuine Naaru.

What Blizzard has said on this matter is that Naaru, and Void lords, are still people of a sort. They represent the Void and Light in different ways.

Honestly, I wouldn't even be surprised if Locus-Walker turned out to be a fragment of a Void Lord merely posing as an Ethereal so he could just wander about and go adventuring to see shit.

Last edited by Krakhed; 05-09-2018 at 09:13 AM..
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  #5209  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:19 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Y’rel is a young woman stepping into the role of a Prophet who was probably the oldest mortal in existence. Of course she’s going to make mistakes. Zealotry is a classic youthful mistake. Good religion carried to extremes is a tale as old as time, and robbed of the one who led them for millennia, it’s really not surprising that the Draenei aren’t immune. Makes them more interesting.
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  #5210  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:33 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Every single Naaru we have seen BEFORE XE'RA was benevolent and wanted to help. To hamfist the Light into "evil mode" to fit with the "fine people on many sides" bullcrap about the Void is downright insulting.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #5211  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:36 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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The Legion was already handling the work of keeping the Void in check, though it was also suppressing the Light. Thing is, the Sha'tar aren't the whole of the Naaru. Xe'ra was never meant to be a one-off.

There have been Light-worshiping villains in literally every expansion of WoW. The thing here is that Y'rel doesn't have any reason to doubt the Naaru. From her perspective, she's receiving instructions from what are essentially her Gods. Gods she's been raised and taught to trust. It's similar to why the Orcs were so keen to follow their "ancestors", except Y'rel can likely tell that these are genuine Naaru.

What Blizzard has said on this matter is that Naaru, and Void lords, are still people of a sort. They represent the Void and Light in different ways.

Honestly, I wouldn't even be surprised if Locus-Walker turned out to be a fragment of a Void Lord merely posing as an Ethereal so he could just wander about and go adventuring to see shit.
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Y’rel is a young woman stepping into the role of a Prophet who was probably the oldest mortal in existence. Of course she’s going to make mistakes. Zealotry is a classic youthful mistake. Good religion carried to extremes is a tale as old as time, and robbed of the one who led them for millennia, it’s really not surprising that the Draenei aren’t immune. Makes them more interesting.
It stops being just religion being followed to the extreme when you seem to have people forcefully assimilated into it as it's implied in the case of the "Lightbound orcs". This is what really bothers me and that gives the vibe of them being drones. The Crusade and the Adherents were asses, but they didn't "magically convert" people. You either were with them to begin with or against them. If the orcs can be magically converted, then the draenei may have been as well, meaning it's not choice or zealotry, it's just brainwashing.

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Every single Naaru we have seen BEFORE XE'RA was benevolent and wanted to help. To hamfist the Light into "evil mode" to fit with the "fine people on many sides" bullcrap about the Void is downright insulting.
Exactly.
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  #5212  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:36 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I... actually think this is kind of a cool lore development. Yeah some of it sounds balls to the wall bonkers like the prospect of Lightbound Orcs and Garrosh Holyscream, but it's actually a pretty decent way of making Draenei more flawed and not just this extremely boring as fuck race of lawful good tieflings.

And in some respects... I completely understand why they would go this route. It's perfectly understandable that they wouldn't forgive the Iron Horde for past atrocities and seek to try to "tame" them.

I would hope for something to come out of this that ties with the Alliance and offers some intriguing story, but part of me is thinking this is just an excuse to have Light-themed villains after we got sick of wiping out the Scarlet Crusade for the 40 billionth time.
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  #5213  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:37 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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I've always been bothered by the easy teleports that are only remembered when it's convenient for the plot.
Remember when Jaina suddenly vanished in the Varian's death cinematic when she was fighting with him mere seconds before it played? :-/

I certainly did not expect Yrel and her draenei to become fanatics. But yea, maybe we should see it from their POV as well in order to understand. Can't wait for the whole scenario!

Was actually surprised to see Tyrande there. I was certain that given the novella bit stating she is off to Stormwind, we wouldn't see her at all. Then why not just say she is on a mission somewhere in the woods or something instead of using the ever-convenient HS or teleportations or whatever she took.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:45 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Remember when Jaina suddenly vanished in the Varian's death cinematic when she was fighting with him mere seconds before it played? :-/
Yeah, bothered me a lot. Of course, there's no canon explanation to explain that, but I handwaved it as she teleporting most of the men (no way in hell a whole army could escape by climbing ropes to a flying ship in time), but couldn't save all.

It also bothers me in the "Jaina is exiled to Drustvar" bit BfA. She can just teleport! You either put her in an anti-magic cell, or she can go anywhere she sees fit without trouble.

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I certainly did not expect Yrel and her draenei to become fanatics. But yea, maybe we should see it from their POV as well in order to understand. Can't wait for the whole scenario!
Seeing things from their PoV would be nice, but I doubt we will see it.

What really upsets me is the Draenei lines. It makes them sound like Xe'ra's drones. They remove all subtlety about this, sound like very lame villainy.

Yield, mag'har! Embrace the Light!
We come to save you from your savagery!
Heed the High Exarch's visions!
You have ruined this land! It is not too late to save it!
We can save Draenor together!
Join us in the Light, brothers and sisters!
The time of Grommash is past. Embrace a new future!
The Light saved us. It can save you, too!
The High Exarch only wishes the best for us all!


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Was actually surprised to see Tyrande there. I was certain that given the novella bit stating she is off to Stormwind, we wouldn't see her at all. Then why not just say she is on a mission somewhere in the woods or something instead of using the ever-convenient HS or teleportations or whatever she took.
I agree.

Teleportion is a nice in-game comodity, but in-lore it shouldn't be so easy to pull off.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:46 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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It stops being just religion being followed to the extreme when you seem to have people forcefully assimilated into it as it's implied in the case of the "Lightbound orcs". This is what really bothers me and that gives the vibe of them being drones. The Crusade and the Adherents were asses, but they didn't "magically convert" people. You either were with them to begin with or against them. If the orcs can be magically converted, then the draenei may have been as well, meaning it's not choice or zealotry, it's just brainwashing.
I doubt the Draenei would need it. Do you think Turalyon needed to be brainwashed? I imagine if you’re already a devoted servant of the Light it’s not even a big deal.

The Light believes in “One True Path.” That’s easy for me to work with because in IRL I believe in the same. I also happen to believe that if people don’t make the choice to follow that path of their own volition then it’s not worth following. Naaru, beings made 100% of Light, might not be capable of that distinction. Think Imperius from Diablo.

Also, remember these Draenei have lost the wisdom of Velen. That’s gotta have an immense effect on their society.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:06 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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This is bad storytelling 101.

So, Grommash was whitewashed, while Yrel gets hit by the villain bat because "LOL Light corrupts". Of course, maybe Yrel is really the hero and we are only seeing the mag'har PoV, but I really doub this story will ever be fully covered. Hell, I hope it's forgotten for all eternity.

As a plus, I already felt it was forced that the AU!Mag'har would leave a perfectly livable Draenor to come to a war that does not matter to them at all. It's now worse: they are going to come to a war that does not matter to them at all despite having their own little war in their world. Nice strategy, AU!Grommash.
We all know that although light is better than void, but light would like to create a totalitarian theocracy, Xera is a clear example of this and I would not be surprised if she is the mistress of the lightbound
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:13 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I doubt the Draenei would need it. Do you think Turalyon needed to be brainwashed? I imagine if you’re already a devoted servant of the Light it’s not even a big deal.
And yet Turalyon could understand Alleria's choice and even wanted her to not return so Xe'ra wouldn't punish her. If Turalyon was just a drone, he'd comply with Xe'ra's will and forsake Alleria.

Xe'ra was portrayed as a extremist, but that does not mean she's the best representation of the Light. Every single naaru before her was more tolerant and benevolent.

Naaru having actual distinct personalities makes for a way better narrative than saying they are just 100% Light and that's how Light is.

(And I also like the idea that Void Lords may also have different personalities and objectives, and only some (or even just one) of them are behind the Old Gods.)

Quote:
The Light believes in “One True Path.”
Does not mean all beings of Light see the same path, thought. Each being believes in a single path, but it does not need to be exactly the same one.

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Also, remember these Draenei have lost the wisdom of Velen. That’s gotta have an immense effect on their society.
From that to become full-blown fanatics after millenia practicing tolerance sounds very forced to me. They still have leaders like Maladaar, after all. Draenei lifespans are too long to believe a radical change like as something natural.

Some of them going fanatic? Sure, possible. The entire society? No way.

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We all know that although light is better than void, but light would like to create a totalitarian theocracy, Xera is a clear example of this and I would not be surprised if she is the mistress of the lightbound
Xe'ra is the only example of this. We had known several naaru before her, and none of them acted like that, which is why this "Light = Totalitarian" angle feels forced.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:17 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I legitimately hate "Threeslotbag" on the US Story forums with a passion holy shit I hate them more then I have ever hated any poster here
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:20 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The Warcraft fanbase is disgustingly lovely.

To quote Lyn, from the SoL discord:

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The Light was good and warm and shit but if taken too far could be evil. This has always been the standard in this game, it's just never really shown. Even in BC A'dal and M'uru were manipulative, going behind everyone's backs with their true intent of having M'uru get kidnapped to eventually cleanse the Sunwell, rather than just telling people.
And that's basically what I've been saying all along. All naaru are fanaticism-inducers. People just thought a'dal was windchime buddha because he was on their side, gathering forces to strike on Illidan.

The Sha'tar in general are misunderstood. Players go and think "omg they are friendly to us this means they are good people xD", which translates to "if they're not being mean or arrogant, then they can't be bad".

I'll quote even Reddit posts on this matter:

Quote:
(BFA Spoilers) Mag'har scenario - before and after

This board before finding out about the scenario:

"Wow Yrel just forgiving the orcs for slaughtering her people and forging a truce with Grommash is such shitty writing and makes no sense"

This board after finding out about the scenario:

"Wow Yrel just broke the truce and is attacking the orcs when she has absolutely no reason to because she forged a truce with Grommash, this is shitty writing and makes no sense"


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I can't believe it, but Garrosh was right.

Garrosh told Grommash that if left unchecked, the Dranaei would wipe out the Orcs, and so they had to attack first. And now, with the demons defeated, the Dranaei did turn on the Orcs, forcing them to serve the light and killing any who would not yield, with Yrel leading these "Lightbound Dranaei" with AU Garrosh by her side. I guess Blizzard really loves their hero corruption story.
Yrel & the Lightbound are cohesive and make sense in the universe.

Now Grommash's lines, on the other hand, are just plain bad. I hope those are still WIP.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:27 AM
Apep Apep is offline

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Old 05-09-2018, 11:36 AM
GIPlayer GIPlayer is offline

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Xe'ra is the only example of this. We had known several naaru before her, and none of them acted like that, which is why this "Light = Totalitarian" angle feels forced.
Not "only", you meant "first". Yes, we do know several benelovent Naaru before her. Can you explain what's wrong with introducing more Totalitarian Naaru?
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:40 AM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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No. If my presence bothers you, feel free to put me on ignore.
Huh and there I was hoping your manchild tantrums actually would bear fruit and it'd be one less idiot around.
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Old 05-09-2018, 12:05 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Huh and there I was hoping your manchild tantrums actually would bear fruit and it'd be one less idiot around.
Personal attacks and petty belittling, and yet Deicide's the man child? Lol at you boi.
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #5224  
Old 05-09-2018, 12:19 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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This is bad storytelling 101.

So, Grommash was whitewashed, while Yrel gets hit by the villain bat because "LOL Light corrupts". Of course, maybe Yrel is really the hero and we are only seeing the mag'har PoV, but I really doub this story will ever be fully covered. Hell, I hope it's forgotten for all eternity.

As a plus, I already felt it was forced that the AU!Mag'har would leave a perfectly livable Draenor to come to a war that does not matter to them at all. It's now worse: they are going to come to a war that does not matter to them at all despite having their own little war in their world. Nice strategy, AU!Grommash.
You seem to be only able to perceive the story through the perspective of the narrator.

I don't think it's bad storytelling, especially because Grommash isn't being whitewashed and Yrel isn't being a villain.

She might be a villain to the Mag'har (and for that situation I prefer to use the term opponent), but that's not the same thing as being a villain in the Warcraft narrative.

Either way, /u/Tyragon puts it in words better than I do:

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You could see this from different perspectives, most importantly several years have passed, a lot could've gone down that doesn't paint the Mag'har as innocent. WoD is still a good example by itself why the draenei would want to convert them.

Not saying it's a "good" act, but it's not exactly the same genocide as the orcs were doing, they may be trying to "enslave" the orcs, but it appears more like the converted are seen as equals, not slaves, and so far forces of the Light hasn't shown to have any malicious intent than to protect things, even if fanatically.

Also the Lightbound are referred to as the orcs who willingly joined the draenei, so these are orcs killing other orcs for not following the same cause. Not to say that the draenei and Yrel aren't part of it too, obviously, but that it doesn't look that one sided. You could easily view it as traditionalists vs those who think there's a better future following the Light, which so far, even with the example of X'era, is not really that bad of an option, as opposed to joining the Burning Legion or the Void.

Again though, not painting it as a good act, orcs should choose for themselves, but for all we know, as the Lightbound say, the orcs are ruining Draenor and those following the light wants to protect it. I feel this certainly is more a grey war than Horde vs Alliance, given Blizzard manages to give us Yrel's and the draenei's view without appearing fanatically evil.
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Old 05-09-2018, 12:20 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Not "only", you meant "first". Yes, we do know several benelovent Naaru before her. Can you explain what's wrong with introducing more Totalitarian Naaru?
Nothing, if it's clear that it's some naaru, not all. It's the seemly attempt to retcon stuff to make all naaru totalitarian that's the problem.

The same draenei (it's not even an offshoot) that would leave the orcs alone and try to cohexist with other beings in the planets they settled are now trying to forcefully convert orcs to their side. It's a complete 180 turn based solely on this new "Light corrupts" premise.

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
You seem to be only able to perceive the story through the perspective of the narrator.

I don't think it's bad storytelling, especially because Grommash isn't being whitewashed and Yrel isn't being a villain.

She might be a villain to the Mag'har (and for that situation I prefer to use the term opponent), but that's not the same thing as being a villain in the Warcraft narrative.

Either way, /u/Tyragon puts it in words better than I do:
You are right, Krainz, I'm assuming the worst and jumping to conclusions. In my defense, I did put in some of my messages the possibility that this is just a PoV thing.

I also said that my real problem with the whole story lies in the things the draenei shout in the scenario, which, to me, make it seems like subtletly has been thrown out of the window.
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Last edited by Deicide; 05-09-2018 at 12:44 PM..
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