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Old 06-09-2015, 09:26 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Default Project: Scrolls of Lore Reworks Warcraft Lore

So, from the general discussion of WoW. We're going to discuss what we like and dislike. What we thinks needs to be highlighted and what needs to be cut.

First topic should just be listing what we like and what we dislike, I suppose to find a grounds for starting this discussion.

Polls:
When did lore get weird?
Do you like the Horde and Alliance as they exist in WoW?

Last edited by Mertico; 06-09-2015 at 12:35 PM..
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  #2  
Old 06-09-2015, 09:28 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Either that, or maybe we should decide at what point in the timeline the narrative first begins to veer off course?

Personally, I'd say we can start in Vanilla WoW. I didn't have any issues with the narrative decisions made from Warcraft 3 -> World of Warcraft, and up until TBC it was still largely all in order and made sense.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:32 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Some people will take issue with the timeline and at what point it starts to have trouble. Which is why I want to know what people really like and what people really dislike.

I really dislike time travel and I think the Aspects create too many problems in their current form.

What I really like is the general flow of things from the opening of the Dark Portal up until the start of Warcraft 3. I think the fall of Stormwind and the Orcs moving north across the Eastern Kingdoms is important to establishing what Warcraft is.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:36 AM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Vanilla still feels like continuation of WC3 at least. Night elves probably got the weirdest changes, so I'd want to see some corrections to that - though I still think their allying with the Alliance seems to make more sense than the Horde.

Most of Vanilla though doesn't take the trains too far off the tracks. Late Vanilla and TBC is where things sorta get odd.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:41 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Here's a poll.

I didn't use the forum feature because I assume we'll be doing a lot of these.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:02 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Subcommittee for the Restructuring of the First and Second Wars.


There is room for most of the missions to exist. Towns can be razed and rebuilt.

There are living veterans whose roles are largely unknown. We should know where Saurfang and Rhonin were, or whether Valeera was alive.

There are plenty of potential war years to work with. Two-year peace intervals between ToD and BtDP, and between BtDP and DotD, are a waste.

These changes need not have any impact on the modern-day lore of WoW.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:43 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The Forsaken either never exist or are all killed in Cataclysm.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:46 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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I motion that we make the first and only order of business business be Horde and Alliance bullshit instead of utilizing the world building talents of other posters because fuck the world.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:55 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Huh?

Anyway, I think the problems started when they introduced the Naaru and the Blood Elves with their bloodmagic. It created a lot of issues and conflicts in the narrative.

I would keep the High Elves, but leave the Naaru out and never introduce that nonsense to the whole concept of "the Light". So also no B811 pallies.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:53 AM
Vaximillian Vaximillian is offline

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I chose every option. Because, well, reasons.
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:05 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
The Forsaken either never exist or are all killed in Cataclysm.
It'd be easy to rework the Forsaken to not be stupid evil.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2015, 12:25 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
It'd be easy to rework the Forsaken to not be stupid evil.
I think you need the Forsaken for the narrative. If Lordaeron is just outright reclaimed it wouldn't be as exciting.
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:25 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
It'd be easy to rework the Forsaken to not be stupid evil.
I believe that Fojar's response would be that if they were not stupid evil, they wouldn't be the Forsaken.

Anyway, a better Forsaken would involve rethinking their place in the game. Putting them in the Horde, and by extension in direct opposition to humanity, has caused problems. Ideally in-game they would be anti-Scourge but not anti-Living, and either be cautious and isolationist when dealing with the outside world, or would act more like the Ebon Blade was written and dedicate their existence to protecting others from the Scourge.

One way to clean up the mess of the lore is to 86 the Alliance and Horde entirely. Too much of the story is screwed up by forcing everything through the Alliance vs. Horde lens. Write each race as independent factions, where some are friendlier to each other than others, but you can champion whoever you want (kind of like Guild Wars 2). PvP factions will be third parties who have no real established ties to the player factions, and a player can support either one regardless of race. Somewhat like Aldor and Scryer.
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:31 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Start by renaming the Forsaken, who hadn't even been forsaken before choosing to name themselves Forsaken.
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:33 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arterius View Post
I believe that Fojar's response would be that if they were not stupid evil, they wouldn't be the Forsaken.

Anyway, a better Forsaken would involve rethinking their place in the game. Putting them in the Horde, and by extension in direct opposition to humanity, has caused problems. Ideally in-game they would be anti-Scourge but not anti-Living, and either be cautious and isolationist when dealing with the outside world, or would act more like the Ebon Blade was written and dedicate their existence to protecting others from the Scourge.

One way to clean up the mess of the lore is to 86 the Alliance and Horde entirely. Too much of the story is screwed up by forcing everything through the Alliance vs. Horde lens. Write each race as independent factions, where some are friendlier to each other than others, but you can champion whoever you want (kind of like Guild Wars 2). PvP factions will be third parties who have no real established ties to the player factions, and a player can support either one regardless of race. Somewhat like Aldor and Scryer.
If we're talking strictly about how we would fix lore we can ignore game play. If not, well, PvP can easily just be outside of lore or simply 'international' sort entities.

And a poll for if you like the Horde and Alliance as they exist in WoW.
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:37 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I think you need the Forsaken for the narrative. If Lordaeron is just outright reclaimed it wouldn't be as exciting.
Agreed. I think there's two ways to rework the Forsaken (if you're starting at Vanilla WoW), depending on far you wanna go.

1) Make them morally ambiguous but not outright evil, except for maybe those in the Apothecary. Less abandoning of their human sides by most of the Forsaken. Sylvanas isn't stupid evil nor antagonistic, but will simply do what it takes to keep her people secure from those that attack them. More pitiable, less dumb.

2) Remove them from the Horde completely and now they are enemy NPCs. Maybe even a neutral faction of less evil Forsaken against the more evil ones led by Sylvanas. Either way, they can be as evil or not evil as you want when they're not tied to a playable faction.
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:41 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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I think the best way for us to rework it is to take what Blizzard has given us and trim the fat, do some spring cleaning, and close some plotholes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
Agreed. I think there's two ways to rework the Forsaken (if you're starting at Vanilla WoW), depending on far you wanna go.

1) Make them morally ambiguous but not outright evil, except for maybe those in the Apothecary. Less abandoning of their human sides by most of the Forsaken. Sylvanas isn't stupid evil nor antagonistic, but will simply do what it takes to keep her people secure from those that attack them. More pitiable, less dumb.

2) Remove them from the Horde completely and now they are enemy NPCs. Maybe even a neutral faction of less evil Forsaken against the more evil ones led by Sylvanas. Either way, they can be as evil or not evil as you want when they're not tied to a playable faction.
I think a middle ground is the best solution there. The likely conclusion to keeping the Horde and Alliance is not to. They create more problems than they solve. However, a morally ambiguous Forsaken is probably the best solution.

Last edited by Mertico; 06-09-2015 at 12:48 PM..
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  #18  
Old 06-09-2015, 12:49 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
If we're talking strictly about how we would fix lore we can ignore game play. If not, well, PvP can easily just be outside of lore or simply 'international' sort entities.

And a poll for if you like the Horde and Alliance as they exist in WoW.
I brought up gameplay stuff in this case because it connects with the lore. The decisions to put the Night Elves in the Alliance and the Forsaken in the Horde were done entirely with gameplay in mind. Lorewise, neither the Night Elves nor the Forsaken should have joined either faction. And after the events of WC3, even having the Alliance and Horde in-game seems outdated.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:03 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
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I brought up gameplay stuff in this case because it connects with the lore. The decisions to put the Night Elves in the Alliance and the Forsaken in the Horde were done entirely with gameplay in mind. Lorewise, neither the Night Elves nor the Forsaken should have joined either faction. And after the events of WC3, even having the Alliance and Horde in-game seems outdated.
I agree that the Night Elves and the Forsaken shouldn't be part of either faction. The Alliance and Horde that we see in WoW doesn't make much sense. Stormwind and Ironforge having an alliance or at the least stronger ties makes sense. The same Orgrimmar and Thunderbluff. However that's about as far as you can take it.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:35 PM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I agree that the Night Elves and the Forsaken shouldn't be part of either faction. The Alliance and Horde that we see in WoW doesn't make much sense. Stormwind and Ironforge having an alliance or at the least stronger ties makes sense. The same Orgrimmar and Thunderbluff. However that's about as far as you can take it.
I was thinking something similar. Alliance and Horde could theoretically exist as partnerships between Stormwind/IF/Gnomeregan and Orgrimmar/Thunderbluff/Sen'jin, respectively, but they would be at most loose confederations. And, lorewise, it might make more sense to have Theramore be the center of humanity in Warcraft, seeing as how the 7th Legion had brigades from all 7 kingdoms if I recall correctly, which would put humans and Orcs on a slightly friendlier footing than normal.
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  #21  
Old 06-09-2015, 01:41 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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I'm personally okay with the night elves and Forsaken being in the two factions, I just wish it had been better explained how the two ended up in the factions and that the night elves had kept a little more of their WC3 style.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:45 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
I'm personally okay with the night elves and Forsaken being in the two factions, I just wish it had been better explained how the two ended up in the factions and that the night elves had kept a little more of their WC3 style.
I think the problem with the system as it stands is that it leads to Orcs and Humans over shadowing the other races.

I am sure this thread will lead to the creation of a wiki.
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Old 06-09-2015, 02:06 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I think the problem with the system as it stands is that it leads to Orcs and Humans over shadowing the other races.

I am sure this thread will lead to the creation of a wiki.
That's more of a fault by Blizz not giving the other races any narrative weight. Even with an orc Warchief, there's still plenty of places where other races and other characters can shine within the Horde, for example. Blizz's problem is that they seemingly think that only one race can shine at any given time.

Alliance should have been more of a council of leaders and/or ambassadors though.
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Old 06-09-2015, 02:06 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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WOW should not have had factions. Arenas show that you don't need factions to have PvP.
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Old 06-09-2015, 02:09 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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The issues began as soon as WoW launched, because right at the outset the spirit of WCIII was basically thrown into the trashcan. Mainly this can be seen in the non-ruined Eastern Kingdoms, hamfisted Horde vs Alliance factionalism, borderline retconning who and what the NEs are, also too many high elves (which clashes with the most elves became belfs).

There were also issues stemming from the nature of an MMO (or at least Blizzard's vision of what one is), mostly the static nature of the world where every threat just waits for its turn and then gets inevitably defeated (this totally ruined the Scourge as a story element, among many others).
This system alone almost ruins the story before it even started, but they fucked it up even harder when they just kept upping the ante with more and more powerful foes, casually throwing even gray characters under the bus to feed this fire, if WoW remained about slaying random black dragons and forgotten elementals it would have been much more solid lorewise.

Of course this is just scratching the surface of problems WoW brought to Warcraft story, in hindsight it is pretty obvious Warcraft was doomed when it stopped being an RTS.
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