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  #251  
Old 06-27-2015, 07:20 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Insupting people for not supporting your idea isn't going to help
Maybe. If it were such a good idea then it wouldn't be this hard to rework them.
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  #252  
Old 06-27-2015, 07:45 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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What warrants keeping the king dragons being Aspects? Last time I checked, the Lore dealing with Aspect business (like World Shaman Thrall) has a habit of being shoddy or bringing questions.

Last edited by Galdus; 06-27-2015 at 07:48 PM..
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  #253  
Old 06-27-2015, 07:51 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
What warrants keeping the king dragons being Aspects? Last time I checked, the Lore dealing with Aspect business (like World Shaman Thrall) has a habit of being shoddy or bringing questions.
None of what's wrong with the dragons has to do with them being aspects empowered by the titans, it's the circumstances and events that need fixing.

Making dragons dumb animals like Terrorhoof wants would be a radical departure from the lore and require significantly more rewriting, when the goal of this thread is a general smoothing of existing lore, not a "What would you do" thread.
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  #254  
Old 06-27-2015, 10:34 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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The only Aspect that has proven difficult is the Bronze Dragons and only because time-travel is always, always a mess. Even then, it's more of a discussion of to what degree of control of time that Bronzes have.
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  #255  
Old 06-28-2015, 12:35 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Probably not much. BC sort of implied that they are only there to tidy things up and make sure that things keep moving.
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  #256  
Old 06-30-2015, 06:50 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
The only Aspect that has proven difficult is the Bronze Dragons and only because time-travel is always, always a mess. Even then, it's more of a discussion of to what degree of control of time that Bronzes have.
Why does the world need time travel?
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  #257  
Old 06-30-2015, 09:08 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Maybe. If it were such a good idea then it wouldn't be this hard to rework them.
I disagree. Keep in mind that Knaak collaborated with Metzen to create the Dragon Aspects to serve the narrative of Day of the Dragon, and later to serve the narrative of War of the Ancients. Part of it, I think, was to subvert some of the tropes that had been established about dragons in D&D (namely that chromatic dragons were generally evil while metallic dragons were generally good) but part of it was just a matter of taking something that's not normally associated with dragons (i.e. being demigods charged with protecting the world rather than being monsters that collect hoards and eat virgins) and running with it.

From the (theoretical) position of Knaak and Metzen, having a set of dragons that are about preservation rather than destruction, and having one of their number fall to the call of destruction, is on its face a pretty good idea. If you read the scene in DotD that introduces Nozdormu to the franchise, you can see what probably excited Knaak about writing it; yeah, this dragon has a hoard, but it's a hoard of relics rather than of wealth. And the twist of having Nozdormu twist time such that Krasus' entire appeal to him never happens is a pretty unexpected way to end the scene.

All of this is to say that Nozdormu was invented for the sake of spectacle, to give Knaak the ability to write something he hadn't written before and for Metzen to continue flipping the tropes of high fantasy that he wanted to play with.

So with that in mind, Nozdormu and the Bronze Flight were a great idea when they were created. How the Bronze Flight has been deployed since that time leaves a lot to be desired, but if this thread is about smoothing out the lore, then Nozdormu's guardianship over time has to stay, and it's just a matter of having it be executed more consistently.
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  #258  
Old 06-30-2015, 03:32 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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On the topic of the Dragon Soul, how it got to EK and the Moonwell and Tree at Duskwood:

Why not have a small number of the Highbourne steal it while doing their arcane storm as a "fuck you" to the night elves? It is never found and Malfurion spares them as he can't kill so many of his people for defying their anti-magic laws. The Highbourne that stole it had ties to the Druids and they split from the rest and moved south to hide it far away from both Night elves and Highbourne, hoping that it'll stay hidden in the south-eastern corner of Azeroth.
You get transportation, reason for bringing it southwards and why there's night elf and druid stuff there.
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  #259  
Old 07-02-2015, 12:59 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Anybody up for King Varian getting an alliance with the Black Dragons and maybe others not part of Allys
the Scourge and Burning Legion (Ironforge and Kul'Tiras are already Alliance)? With the two sides warring until the Undead Civil War happens.

If we're still going with the King Dragons being Aspects, and are trying to make them more helpful than they've been in the current continuity, along with addressing how Stormwind, Ironforge, and Kul'Tiras avoided a mow over, then we could go with that. Point out how even after decades of recovery Stormwind is not in any position to play world-police. Varian was pushed to accept the Black Pact in the face of destruction and/or becoming a citizen if the United Scourge of Azeroth.

Last edited by Galdus; 07-02-2015 at 01:20 PM..
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  #260  
Old 08-08-2015, 12:26 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
Anybody up for King Varian getting an alliance with the Black Dragons and maybe others not part of Allys
the Scourge and Burning Legion (Ironforge and Kul'Tiras are already Alliance)? With the two sides warring until the Undead Civil War happens.

If we're still going with the King Dragons being Aspects, and are trying to make them more helpful than they've been in the current continuity, along with addressing how Stormwind, Ironforge, and Kul'Tiras avoided a mow over, then we could go with that. Point out how even after decades of recovery Stormwind is not in any position to play world-police. Varian was pushed to accept the Black Pact in the face of destruction and/or becoming a citizen if the United Scourge of Azeroth.
I'm not sure I follow why Varian would work with the black dragonflight, especially since that'd screw with the black dragons working with the dark horde.

That'd also be a pretty big departure from established lore, I suggest you make your own "how Galdus would do it" thread if you wanna go that road.

EDIT:

Lets fire this up again.
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  #261  
Old 02-03-2016, 02:38 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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About a decade a guy named Jeremy novelized tides of war and he made orgrimm pretty well. He STARTS OUT with benevolent intentions; overthrowing blackhand because he's leading them to ruin, going to war since both sides have accumulated bad blood at this point etc. However, by the end he's so drunk on power that he brutally stamps on any attempt to end the war peacefully and undergoes a realization only after loosing everything and being a captive for years.

More specifically Daelin's wife goes to the orc settlements trying to spread ideas of negotiation. Because of how the war is dragging the orcs start to listen.....Orgrim assumes it's a plan to soften the horde for an alliance attack so "for the good of the horde" (or rather so he thinks) he has Daelin's wife murdered. His friend and second, who was actually coming around to the idea, starts to disdain Orgrim because of this.

As for Lothar he tricks Lothar into thinking it will be a parley. He ambushes him, but allows him a final duel because he has enough respect for the guy that he deserves to die fairly. It's still a shitty move.

In short, he starts out a hero with good intentions, but is forced to realize that in the end he became what he loathed. That's a tragic character arc honestly, and I think it would have worked well.
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  #262  
Old 02-03-2016, 08:39 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
About a decade a guy named Jeremy novelized tides of war and he made orgrimm pretty well. He STARTS OUT with benevolent intentions; overthrowing blackhand because he's leading them to ruin, going to war since both sides have accumulated bad blood at this point etc. However, by the end he's so drunk on power that he brutally stamps on any attempt to end the war peacefully and undergoes a realization only after loosing everything and being a captive for years.

More specifically Daelin's wife goes to the orc settlements trying to spread ideas of negotiation. Because of how the war is dragging the orcs start to listen.....Orgrim assumes it's a plan to soften the horde for an alliance attack so "for the good of the horde" (or rather so he thinks) he has Daelin's wife murdered. His friend and second, who was actually coming around to the idea, starts to disdain Orgrim because of this.

As for Lothar he tricks Lothar into thinking it will be a parley. He ambushes him, but allows him a final duel because he has enough respect for the guy that he deserves to die fairly. It's still a shitty move.

In short, he starts out a hero with good intentions, but is forced to realize that in the end he became what he loathed. That's a tragic character arc honestly, and I think it would have worked well.
Hmmm, I think by working in a bit of paranoia that could work.

Dunno about using Daelins wife, she seems like an odd choice for a peacemaker since most orc settlements are inland.
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  #263  
Old 02-03-2016, 12:55 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Hmmm, I think by working in a bit of paranoia that could work.

Dunno about using Daelins wife, she seems like an odd choice for a peacemaker since most orc settlements are inland.
I think it was to add more depth to why he hated orcs. He was willing to give the peace initiative a chance and his wife died for it. He saw Jaina making peace and failed to understand that this time the orcs had mellowed out (or were under a leader who wasn't paranoid."

In the novelization he was pretty paranoid about it.
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