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  #26  
Old 06-09-2015, 02:20 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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  #27  
Old 06-09-2015, 02:26 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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It's hard for me to know where Warcraft ends and WoW begins. My first exposure to Warcraft was to WoW and then later playing WC3.

And it's hard to find info about what exactly was going on in the setting pre-WoW because there's just so much intertwined info and info that's been ejected and largely forgotten as retcons happened. You can't exactly look it up on a Wiki, and I don't exactly have pre-WoW manuals or info on hand either.

Like I see the claim that Eastern Kingdoms was in ruins post-WC3, but where's that info from? I always thought it was just people's headcanon rather than a "canon once upon a time."
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  #28  
Old 06-09-2015, 02:27 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
The issues began as soon as WoW launched, because right at the outset the spirit of WCIII was basically thrown into the trashcan. Mainly this can be seen in the non-ruined Eastern Kingdoms, hamfisted Horde vs Alliance factionalism, borderline retconning who and what the NEs are, also too many high elves (which clashes with the most elves became belfs).

There were also issues stemming from the nature of an MMO (or at least Blizzard's vision of what one is), mostly the static nature of the world where every threat just waits for its turn and then gets inevitably defeated (this totally ruined the Scourge as a story element, among many others).
This system alone almost ruins the story before it even started, but they fucked it up even harder when they just kept upping the ante with more and more powerful foes, casually throwing even gray characters under the bus to feed this fire, if WoW remained about slaying random black dragons and forgotten elementals it would have been much more solid lorewise.

Of course this is just scratching the surface of problems WoW brought to Warcraft story, in hindsight it is pretty obvious Warcraft was doomed when it stopped being an RTS.
Part of the problem there is how stupidly powerful some of the people we run into on a regular basis are. The dragon Aspects are one such group. So for a group like them, you have to ask yourself: Are they important to the story in their current form?

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
Like I see the claim that Eastern Kingdoms was in ruins post-WC3, but where's that info from? I always thought it was just people's headcanon rather than a "canon once upon a time."
This thread is basically SoL Retcons Warcraft Lore. And I don't mean that as a negative because that's exactly why I created the thread.
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  #29  
Old 06-09-2015, 02:38 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
This thread is basically SoL Retcons Warcraft Lore. And I don't mean that as a negative because that's exactly why I created the thread.
I'm guessing pinning down when and how extensive the retcons should be would be important. I'm down for tossing around ideas about making things less wonky, but once you start trying to retcon the whole of the existence of WoW or Warcraft due to some assumed state of Warcraft post-WC3/WC2, then it's kinda lost me there.

Probably because WoW was my first taste of Warcraft and only later did I play WC3.
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  #30  
Old 06-09-2015, 02:41 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
I'm guessing pinning down when and how extensive the retcons should be would be important. I'm down for tossing around ideas about making things less wonky, but once you start trying to retcon the whole of the existence of WoW or Warcraft due to some assumed state of Warcraft post-WC3/WC2, then it's kinda lost me there.

Probably because WoW was my first taste of Warcraft and only later did I play WC3.
I don't want to retcon the whole thing. I want to trim the fat and close the plot holes.

Overall, we all like WoW and Warcraft lore. In this thread we just want it to be clear and nicer.

Last edited by Mertico; 06-09-2015 at 03:16 PM..
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  #31  
Old 06-09-2015, 03:21 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
And it's hard to find info about what exactly was going on in the setting pre-WoW because there's just so much intertwined info and info that's been ejected and largely forgotten as retcons happened. You can't exactly look it up on a Wiki, and I don't exactly have pre-WoW manuals or info on hand either.
The manuals for all the RTS games are available online, either as pdf, or from Wowpedia.

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
Like I see the claim that Eastern Kingdoms was in ruins post-WC3, but where's that info from? I always thought it was just people's headcanon rather than a "canon once upon a time."
I'm not sure about a direct evidence, but Archimonde says to Jaina at Hyjal: "If all of your fellow humans were as brave as you are, I would have had more fun scouring your wretched nations from the world."



Personally the first truly offensive idea was Anveena Teague. After that, Arthas mindstabbing Ner'zhul, and "There must always be a Lich King."

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-09-2015 at 03:36 PM..
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  #32  
Old 06-09-2015, 04:02 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Everything starts with Vanilla WOW. It should've been a continuation of Warcraft 3, with the survivors of the Horde and Alliance rebuilding on Kalimdor. They would've had much more freedoms if they focused only on Kalimdor at first.
No hardcoded factions, just some races prefering each others company more than others and avoiding some entirely if they can.
Humans, Dwarves, High elves, Night elves, Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Goblins. Those should've been the first playable races.
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  #33  
Old 06-09-2015, 04:17 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
The manuals for all the RTS games are available online, either as pdf, or from Wowpedia.
I just found the WC3 one. Pretty cool. Never had the pleasure of reading it.

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I'm not sure about a direct evidence, but Archimonde says to Jaina at Hyjal: "If all of your fellow humans were as brave as you are, I would have had more fun scouring your wretched nations from the world."
I could see where y'all get that from then. Though I think it just refers to Dalaran and Lordaeron myself. No reason to think Archimonde went off-screen to blow up Gilneas, Stromgarde, and Stormwind when he had other things to deal with, like finding the orcs.

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Personally the first truly offensive idea was Anveena Teague. After that, Arthas mindstabbing Ner'zhul, and "There must always be a Lich King."
Agreed about Anveena. That was a weird addition and unneeded.

If I had redo the Lich King, I would basically make the Lich King his own being after Arthas merges with Ner'zhul. Neither of them technically exist anymore except for their memories and maybe portions of their souls bound to him or Frostmourne, unable to do much of anything about it except maybe mope around Icecrown as ghosts.

As for "There must always be a Lich King," I agree it's a dumb idea the way Blizz did it. But if it had been some sort of noble self-sacrifice character without influence/lame reasoning/dumb exposition by Teneras's ghost, it would have made more sense. It shows the characters have their own agency, can think of their own reasons why an uncontrolled mass of undead would be bad, and don't have to constantly be prodded to be heroes by dumb reasons but are heroes all on their own. On the other hand, a leaderless Scourge could open up future opportunities for other, new villains (or returning villains if the Legion tried to retake control of it) to try and control them, which could be far more interesting.
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  #34  
Old 06-09-2015, 04:41 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
I could see where y'all get that from then. Though I think it just refers to Dalaran and Lordaeron myself. No reason to think Archimonde went off-screen to blow up Gilneas, Stromgarde, and Stormwind when he had other things to deal with, like finding the orcs.
It could probably go both ways. On one hand, Archimonde's main goal is to get to Nordrassil; on the other hand, his primary force is the Scourge and the Scourge bolster their forces by killing enemies and raising them from the dead. And Archimonde enjoys destruction. At any rate, the statement is ambiguous enough that WoW isn't a direct contradiction to it.

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If I had redo the Lich King, I would basically make the Lich King his own being after Arthas merges with Ner'zhul. Neither of them technically exist anymore except for their memories and maybe portions of their souls bound to him or Frostmourne, unable to do much of anything about it except maybe mope around Icecrown as ghosts.
I agree. That's sort of what's implied at the end of TFT, "Now... we are one."

Quote:
As for "There must always be a Lich King," I agree it's a dumb idea the way Blizz did it. But if it had been some sort of noble self-sacrifice character without influence/lame reasoning/dumb exposition by Teneras's ghost, it would have made more sense. It shows the characters have their own agency, can think of their own reasons why an uncontrolled mass of undead would be bad, and don't have to constantly be prodded to be heroes by dumb reasons but are heroes all on their own. On the other hand, a leaderless Scourge could open up future opportunities for other, new villains (or returning villains if the Legion tried to retake control of it) to try and control them, which could be far more interesting.
The main problem is that: 1) we're never given any hint of the idea until the very end (so we've been fighting the Lich King without any knowledge about the consequences), and the line just seems thrown in without thought 2) it's contradictory to what had already been established: the Dreadlords can command the Scourge, and the Forsaken were freed from the Lich King when he was weakened by Illidan but did not become uncontrollable maniacs.

In addition, the way it's said just sounds dumb. It's almost presented like some deep and fundamental principle, when in fact the Lich King had been in existence for less than 20 years and there's nothing fundamental about the Lich King's existence. The Lich King was no more than a tool created by Kil'jaeden to herald a Legion invasion that later betrayed its master, not someone entangled with the fate of the world.

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-09-2015 at 04:49 PM..
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  #35  
Old 06-09-2015, 05:17 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Originally Posted by Siegrune View Post
It could probably go both ways. On one hand, Archimonde's main goal is to get to Nordrassil; on the other hand, his primary force is the Scourge and the Scourge bolster their forces by killing enemies and raising them from the dead. And Archimonde enjoys destruction. At any rate, the statement is ambiguous enough that WoW isn't a direct contradiction to it.
It could have also just been a taunt against Jaina because Archimonde is a dick. Honestly, I can't really say for sure. It's been years since I played WC3.

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The main problem is that: 1) we're never given any hint of the idea until the very end (so we've been fighting the Lich King without any knowledge about the consequences), and the line just seems thrown in without thought 2) it's contradictory to what had already been established: the Dreadlords can command the Scourge, and the Forsaken were freed from the Lich King when he was weakened by Illidan but did not become uncontrollable maniacs.
You raise some good points I hadn't thought about. I think a better idea would be just making the Ebon Blade responsible for cleaning up the rest of the more mindless or powerful Scourge, making them into the actual jailors of the damned. Bolvar gets to live or unlive. But can Tirion still die?
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  #36  
Old 06-09-2015, 05:44 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by DerpiusMaximus View Post
You raise some good points I hadn't thought about. I think a better idea would be just making the Ebon Blade responsible for cleaning up the rest of the more mindless or powerful Scourge, making them into the actual jailors of the damned. Bolvar gets to live or unlive. But can Tirion still die?
Depends on how important he would be to re-establishing Lordaeron. If we had a Calia Menethil, I don't think he's needed.
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  #37  
Old 06-09-2015, 06:08 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Depends on how important he would be to re-establishing Lordaeron. If we had a Calia Menethil, I don't think he's needed.
No Calia in Wrath was dumb.
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  #38  
Old 06-09-2015, 06:10 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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No Calia in Wrath was dumb.
Queen Calia Menethil, the Dawnbringer. That would give some tension to the Forsaken and explain their invasion of Gilneas without needing the Orcs and for the Forsaken to be stupidly evil.
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  #39  
Old 06-09-2015, 06:45 PM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Has there been any female ruler of a human kingdom anyway?

Jaina doesn't count because the circumstances were exceptional, she was establishing a new nation, and she had special mage abilities.

In fact, Azshara seems to have been the only ruling queen among any of the major humanoid civilizations of Azeroth, and she had the magical power to back up her claim.

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-09-2015 at 07:16 PM..
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  #40  
Old 06-09-2015, 06:47 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Should we list lore concepts that we're okay with or not okay with?

I voted BC on the poll since I think that's where lore got really spotty, but if I'm gonna be honest I did not feel letdown by the setting until I played Cataclysm. I think that's in large part when I started really growing up and became more critical of fiction, and just the overall handling of stuff in Cataclysm felt like the biggest departure the setting was taken. Even when MoP tried to put things back in order, I think too much of the damage had already been done.

Now to say what I'm okay with?

1. I'm okay with an Alliance and Horde existing and for there to be a faction system. I do think to some extent there's good reason for factions to exist in MMO's since they give people an extra reason to be invested in the setting. If the game had gone neutral I'd have been fine with that too, though I imagine the PvP would be a touch more dull since there's no teams to rally for or be proud of being a part of. This is largely where I think PvP in other games like GW2 sort of miss their mark.

2. I'm fine with the playable races we have been given thus far. I notice it's often said that "x race was a mistake" and "y race is really counter to my vision of the setting", and those are fair criticisms that I myself have acknowledged and agreed with from time to time. Truth be told though, I think in an idyllic scenario, races like Draenei and Worgen are perfectly valid and fine for the setting. I do think both of these races needed serious re-evaluation before their implementation, but at the same time I see why the devs thought them compelling ideas to bring to the setting.

3. Furthermore, I'm okay with Night Elves being Alliance and Forsaken being Horde. I think it has caused some lore issues that have frustrated their fans since their development, but at the risk of sounding too optimistic, I would argue that they would have worked out perfectly if the writing had just been thought out a little better. While Night Elves were watered down in vanilla, I think the worst culprit of handling these two races came with Cataclysm, and that expansion needs no further words.

Now what I'm not okay with?

Well, that's gonna take too long to write. I'm sure people already know anyway given what I've written in the past.

Further on the topic of factions...

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I voted no but that's not to say I think they were a mistake. I just don't entirely agree with Blizzard's vision they've set with them. I think one issues is trying to figure out how to nail down ideologies without making them damaging to the faction's lore. For example, I agree with the Alliance's ideologies of believing in justice, faith, nobility, and high culture. I wouldn't be a mostly Alliance player if I didn't agree with those ideologies. But at the same time I think the potential harm from that is when the Alliance is flanderized and turned into a Superman analog.

I guess I could note other issues like how the themes of both factions have been either diluted or taken to extremes without a solid middle ground being approached, but I don't know if that's the direction I imagine people want the thread to go.
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  #41  
Old 06-09-2015, 07:06 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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All I know for sure is that of all the changes I would make to TBC, Kael'thas and Illidan surviving would be among them.
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2015, 08:58 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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If we're going to do this, let's start at the beginning, WC1 Revisions, and then move on.

We can fix up the lore by proceeding in the process it was presented to us.


So, Orcs invade Azeroth. Are we keeping the Legion as puppetmasters? That feels pretty central, so I'd suggest we keep it, but maybe change the handling of the orc's corruption so they're not mindless idiot savages that can't survive without committing genocide on others.
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2015, 09:52 PM
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Grimtale is really on the ball today.

Remember, we NEED idiots who exist only to kill each other. It's necessary in order to actually have heroes in the world.

On that note, we need heroes.
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2015, 11:22 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I think it's going to be difficult for SoL as a community to come to a consensus on what the rework would entail. Call it a hunch.

I think a lot of individuals, myself included, have got ideas for just how such a remix might work, but a lot of those are going to be mutually exclusive with one another.
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2015, 02:35 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
I think it's going to be difficult for SoL as a community to come to a consensus on what the rework would entail. Call it a hunch.

I think a lot of individuals, myself included, have got ideas for just how such a remix might work, but a lot of those are going to be mutually exclusive with one another.
Oh, but that's the fun part.

And actually I think Mutter has a point - we should start with the invasion, since so much was retconned into the beginning of Warcraft.
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  #46  
Old 06-10-2015, 02:41 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Oh, but that's the fun part.

And actually I think Mutter has a point - we should start with the invasion, since so much was retconned into the beginning of Warcraft.
I think warcraft's biggest flaw lies in retconning too much of the old. The previous games shoudl be respected and be adapted instead of being retconned. Keeping the wars large, lasting and significant should be a must. It's the three wars that really define the setting.
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  #47  
Old 06-10-2015, 02:48 AM
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What I think should stay:

Most of the Illidan storyline, but with greater involvement of the Legion. Kael'thas should already switch sides in Outland.

Most of the Arthas storyline, but with far greater involvement of the Forsaken and Sylvanas, as well as actual representatives of Lordaeron humans, not power rangers of the Light.

Deathwing needs to be completely redone. Old Gods is fine and all, but the entire Cata plot was an unbearable mess, except for Naga and Vash'jr.

Pandaria - CUT, CUT, CUT. Including the entire Garrosh subplot. Just no, this should never have happened.

WoD, from a story perspective, doesn'T even need to be mentioned.
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  #48  
Old 06-10-2015, 05:58 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
If we're going to do this, let's start at the beginning, WC1 Revisions, and then move on.

We can fix up the lore by proceeding in the process it was presented to us.


So, Orcs invade Azeroth. Are we keeping the Legion as puppetmasters? That feels pretty central, so I'd suggest we keep it, but maybe change the handling of the orc's corruption so they're not mindless idiot savages that can't survive without committing genocide on others.
Agreed. So let's start there. I think there are maybe three important questions to ask about the Orc during their period. How long were the Orcs on Azeroth before they attacked Stormwind? Who were the leaders of the Orcs? Why did they do what they did?

What I'm saying is, why was Grom so willing to drink the demon blood in the first place? Power, of course, but it doesn't feel like it should be so simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
What I think should stay:

Most of the Illidan storyline, but with greater involvement of the Legion. Kael'thas should already switch sides in Outland.

Most of the Arthas storyline, but with far greater involvement of the Forsaken and Sylvanas, as well as actual representatives of Lordaeron humans, not power rangers of the Light.

Deathwing needs to be completely redone. Old Gods is fine and all, but the entire Cata plot was an unbearable mess, except for Naga and Vash'jr.

Pandaria - CUT, CUT, CUT. Including the entire Garrosh subplot. Just no, this should never have happened.

WoD, from a story perspective, doesn'T even need to be mentioned.
In my opinion one of the important parts of this is staying as true to Blizzard's creations as we can and only retconning what needs to be. So when we get to our discussion of Warlords of Draenor we'll have to figure out how to make it work without breaking the lore and messing everything up. Is such a thing even possible? Who knows.


Here is the official summary of Warcraft I. It gives us a lot to work with:

For ages, the fallen titan Sargeras plotted to scour all life from Azeroth. To this end, Sargeras possessed the human sorcerer Medivh and compelled him to contact Gul'dan, an orc warlock on the world of Draenor. There, Sargeras' demonic servants among the Burning Legion worked to corrupt the once - peaceful orcs and forge them into a bloodthirsty army known as the Horde. This cursed force invaded Azeroth through the Dark Portal, a dimensional gateway created by Medivh and Gul'dan, and clashed with the human nation of Stormwind. Aided by the half-orc Garona, human champions like Anduin Lothar fought valiantly to protect their kingdom. Yet, in the end, the mighty Horde shattered Stormwind's defenses. Amid the city's tragic fall, Garona betrayed her allies and assassinated King Llane Wrynn, sealing the nation's defeat.

Last edited by Mertico; 06-10-2015 at 06:13 AM..
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  #49  
Old 06-10-2015, 05:59 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Again, rather than picking random personal favorite changes from throughout the game's lifespan, let's start at the beginning and go from there.

Warcraft 1: Orcs and Humans

Topics from that era off the top of my head-

1. Keep the name Azeroth for the nation or keep Stormwind? I prefer Azeroth because it fits better with the other countries names.

2. Keep the orcs pure-evil conquerors or keep them influenced by the Legion? As I mentioned earlier, I prefer having the legion's influence and corruption matter.

3. How long does the war progress? What do the other nations know about what's going on? Etc...

4. What's Medivh's role in all this? Also, other lore characters like Gul'dan and Khadgar and Garona and Uther and Faol.

I think everyone named from WC1 should have at least one big defining moment to properly set them up as important legacy characters in later material.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Agreed. So let's start there. I think there are maybe three important questions to ask about the Orc during their period. How long were the Orcs on Azeroth before they attacked Stormwind? Who were the leaders of the Orcs? Why did they do what they did?

What I'm saying is, why was Grom so willing to drink the demon blood in the first place? Power, of course, but it doesn't feel like it should be so simple.
1. Before they attacked Stormwind? The first time? I'm thinking not long, a few months to a year, tops. But of course that initial assault is repulsed due to a combination of infighting between Kilrogg and Cho'gall, and human knights being fantastic badasses. This prompts them to retreat back to the Black Morass and regroup.

Personally I want to stretch out the timeline, so I think there'd be a slow escalation of probing assaults and raiding parties and gradual attrition before the orcs begin the invasion in earnest.

2. Blackhand stays leader, with Gul'dan and the Shadow Council running things in the background, that feels pretty central. The clans left on Draenor like Grom's Warsong during the first war are those either needed to handle a local enemy to keep them from hitting the orcs from behind, or those too influential or untrustworthy/uncontrollable to be allowed out of sight.

Basically the orcs are comprised of Blackhand and Gul'dan's forces in WC1.

I'd play up more of Blackhand being a brutal, traditionalistic orc and a decent if harsh chief before the Horde but not out and out 'evil' until Gul'dan started puppeting him. Which initially Blackhand allowed because it meant good things for the Blackrock, but later became more about his own power. I like the notion that before all this, Blackhand did care about his family as people, whereas after, he saw them and the Horde more as things. His things. Prompting Orgrim to kill 'the man (orc) Blackhand had become'.

3. Well if we go with the demonblood and don't just say the orcs were evil-evil-evil by nature... I would say a campaign of propaganda and misinformation by Gul'dan, after initial fearmongering by Ner'zhul. I like the notion that Ner'zhul started the corruption, but caught on, but that Gul'dan stopped him from telling anyone and then kept it going.

Though this time around I'd like the massacre of the Draenei to start -after- the Demonblood so that it actually... does something.

Or perhaps there actually is something threatening the orcs, but that normally they'd be able to handle it if not for Gul'dan manipulating things so that they -have- to drink the demonblood to survive, at least from their PoV, even if that's not actually the case?
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Last edited by Mutterscrawl; 06-10-2015 at 06:13 AM..
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:12 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Again, rather than picking random personal favorite changes from throughout the game's lifespan, let's start at the beginning and go from there.

Warcraft 1: Orcs and Humans

Topics from that era off the top of my head-

1. Keep the name Azeroth for the nation or keep Stormwind? I prefer Azeroth because it fits better with the other countries names.

2. Keep the orcs pure-evil conquerors or keep them influenced by the Legion? As I mentioned earlier, I prefer having the legion's influence and corruption matter.

3. How long does the war progress? What do the other nations know about what's going on? Etc...

4. What's Medivh's role in all this? Also, other lore characters like Gul'dan and Khadgar and Garona and Uther and Faol.

I think everyone named from WC1 should have at least one big defining moment to properly set them up as important legacy characters in later material.
1. If we keep the name Azeroth for the kingdom then I think we need to change the name of the planet. I like Azeroth as well with Stormwind still being the capital.

2. The Legion is important to later developments, removing them from the Orcs plotline hurts the story more than it helps.

3. An interesting point might be the Dark Iron Dwarves actually trying to warn the other nations when they're attacked (Blackrock Mountain being attacked before Stormwind) and the other nations ignoring them or worse.

4. Is Medivh under Sargeras' control?

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Before they attacked Stormwind? The first time? I'm thinking not long, a few months to a year, tops. But of course that initial assault is repulsed due to a combination of infighting between Kilrogg and Cho'gall, and human knights being fantastic badasses. This prompts them to retreat back to the Black Morass and regroup.

Personally I want to stretch out the timeline, so I think there'd be a slow escalation of probing assaults and raiding parties and gradual attrition before the orcs begin the invasion in earnest.

2. Blackhand stays leader, with Gul'dan and the Shadow Council running things in the background, that feels pretty central. The clans left on Draenor like Grom's Warsong during the first war are those either needed to handle a local enemy to keep them from hitting the orcs from behind, or those too influential or untrustworthy/uncontrollable to be allowed out of sight.

Basically the orcs are comprised of Blackhand and Gul'dan's forces in WC1.

I'd play up more of Blackhand being a brutal, traditionalistic orc and a decent if harsh chief before the Horde but not out and out 'evil' until Gul'dan started puppeting him. Which initially Blackhand allowed because it meant good things for the Blackrock, but later became more about his own power. I like the notion that before all this, Blackhand did care about his family as people, whereas after, he saw them and the Horde more as things. His things. Prompting Orgrim to kill 'the man (orc) Blackhand had become'.

3. Well if we go with the demonblood and don't just say the orcs were evil-evil-evil by nature... I would say a campaign of propaganda and misinformation by Gul'dan, after initial fearmongering by Ner'zhul. I like the notion that Ner'zhul started the corruption, but caught on, but that Gul'dan stopped him from telling anyone and then kept it going.

Though this time around I'd like the massacre of the Draenei to start -after- the Demonblood so that it actually... does something.

Or perhaps there actually is something threatening the orcs, but that normally they'd be able to handle it if not for Gul'dan manipulating things so that they -have- to drink the demonblood to survive, at least from their PoV, even if that's not actually the case?
1. I think that makes a lot of sense of the opening of the war. Perhaps Grom does go to the planet in the first raids but is later called back. This is when Garrosh was born and during this time he attacks the Draenei or another group. It would make a lot of sense to make use of what Blizzard has changed recently on Draenor. In this I mean we can use the Arakoa to keep a good chunk of the Orc forces on Draenor.

2. I agree with this as well. Not much to say. The Blackrocks being sort of potential uniting force on Draenor. Maybe the Legion was forced to act because Blackhand was planning his own campaigns to unite the Orc clans? This could be what drove Ner'zhul to the Legion in the first place.

3. Maybe the Draenei catch wind of the Orcs use of Fel magic and the Draenei do actually attack first. This confirms what Gul'dan/Ner'zhul said about them and sends the Orcs into an uproar. This is why they genocide the Draenei, not because of their natural evil state. Ner'zhul should be removed prior to this attack so that he can remain a force of semi-good in Orcish society.

Last edited by Mertico; 06-10-2015 at 06:25 AM..
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