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  #51  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:16 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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1. If we keep the name Azeroth for the kingdom then I think we need to change the name of the planet. I like Azeroth as well with Stormwind still being the capital.

2. The Legion is important to later developments, removing them from the Orcs plotline hurts the story more than it helps.

3. An interesting point might be the Dark Iron Dwarves actually trying to warn the other nations when they're attacked (Blackrock Mountain being attacked before Stormwind) and the other nations ignoring them or worse.

4. Is Medivh under Sargeras' control?
1. Yeah Stormwind is a good capital city name

2. Agreed.

3. Oh I like that.

4. That's a tough one. Do we want to keep the WC3 Prophet and Guardian angles?

I think Jaina, Thrall, and Tyrande/Malfurion's stories might actually be stronger without him, I don't know.
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  #52  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:32 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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1. Yeah Stormwind is a good capital city name

2. Agreed.

3. Oh I like that.

4. That's a tough one. Do we want to keep the WC3 Prophet and Guardian angles?

I think Jaina, Thrall, and Tyrande/Malfurion's stories might actually be stronger without him, I don't know.
I sort of like the redemption angle that it gives him. But, I don't know either. I think it does give them a stronger stories too.

The question we have to ask if Sargeras isn't possessing him is why he wants to destroy the planet (which we should rename).

Also, I edited my last post, might want to read that.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:46 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I sort of like the redemption angle that it gives him. But, I don't know either. I think it does give them a stronger stories too.

The question we have to ask if Sargeras isn't possessing him is why he wants to destroy the planet (which we should rename).

Also, I edited my last post, might want to read that.
1. Well to have him alive after WC1, WC3 had Aegewyn Rez him, which was weird. I do like the idea of Medivh

2. Maybe we can have him Controlled / Possessed, just not by the original 'tainted at conception' method? Maybe the dreadlords or Kil'jaeden did it somehow.

3. New name for planet... Alterris/Alterra?

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1. I think that makes a lot of sense of the opening of the war. Perhaps Grom does go to the planet in the first raids but is later called back. This is when Garrosh was born and during this time he attacks the Draenei or another group. It would make a lot of sense to make use of what Blizzard has changed recently on Draenor. In this I mean we can use the Arakoa to keep a good chunk of the Orc forces on Draenor.

2. I agree with this as well. Not much to say. The Blackrocks being sort of potential uniting force on Draenor. Maybe the Legion was forced to act because Blackhand was planning his own campaigns to unite the Orc clans? This could be what drove Ner'zhul to the Legion in the first place.

3. Maybe the Draenei catch wind of the Orcs use of Fel magic and the Draenei do actually attack first. This confirms what Gul'dan/Ner'zhul said about them and sends the Orcs into an uproar. This is why they genocide the Draenei, not because of their natural evil state. Ner'zhul should be removed prior to this attack so that he can remain a force of semi-good in Orcish society.
1. Seems like a bit of back and forth. Possible though.

2. I don't think Blackhand would've tried to unite the other clans on his own beforehand, and I don't think Ner'zhul would've approached the Legion, he'd have had to be approached, probably not -just- in the guise of Rulkan though, but in the guise of some grand cosmic elemental with lesser demons parading as ancestors and concealing the presence of the spirits and ancestors trying to warn the orcs.

3. That's definitely possible, though I'd like to keep the "Draenei" the WC3 version and the "Draneredar" a separate species of 'purified' Eredar, rather than eredar before they got corrupted.
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  #54  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:55 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Just a thought: changing the name of the world might conflict with possible plot reveals in canon down the line ("Azeroth is an Old God/Titan egg"). Although that's a retcon from them anyway, and we're creating a new canon I guess, so whatevs.
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  #55  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:02 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Well to have him alive after WC1, WC3 had Aegewyn Rez him, which was weird. I do like the idea of Medivh

2. Maybe we can have him Controlled / Possessed, just not by the original 'tainted at conception' method? Maybe the dreadlords or Kil'jaeden did it somehow.

3. New name for planet... Alterris/Alterra?



1. Seems like a bit of back and forth. Possible though.

2. I don't think Blackhand would've tried to unite the other clans on his own beforehand, and I don't think Ner'zhul would've approached the Legion, he'd have had to be approached, probably not -just- in the guise of Rulkan though, but in the guise of some grand cosmic elemental with lesser demons parading as ancestors and concealing the presence of the spirits and ancestors trying to warn the orcs.

3. That's definitely possible, though I'd like to keep the "Draenei" the WC3 version and the "Draneredar" a separate species of 'purified' Eredar, rather than eredar before they got corrupted.
1. Maybe he doesn't actually die when he is supposedly killed in WCI. Perhaps something else happens to him and he later returns because of his possession/need to fix his mistakes. Sort of a Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White type deal.

2. Dreadlords would work well, I think. It gives them something to do before Warcraft III and doesn't make them so random in their actions there.

3. I was hoping Blizzard would have had some alternate name of some sort but it doesn't seem to.

4. Just gives reasons for Grom to not be in the initial war since you would think he would be.

5. What I meant by Blackhand having plans to unite the clans was that the Legion was forced to act and that they weren't originally going to use Ner'zhul to achieve their goals. Their original plan might have been to just use Gul'dan but Blackhand having these plans made them corrupt the Orcs the way that they did.

6. Up in the air on that one. I sort of like the whole anti-Eredar thing they have going on now. But who knows.

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Just a thought: changing the name of the world might conflict with possible plot reveals in canon down the line ("Azeroth is an Old God/Titan egg"). Although that's a retcon from them anyway, and we're creating a new canon I guess, so whatevs.
That's not really something we can control and we're just doing the best we can with what we have. If it changes then so be it, but as of now we'll give it a new name.



There is an Old God location called Ny'alotha. We could end it in -alotha to give it a connection to them.

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  #56  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:27 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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1. Maybe he doesn't actually die when he is supposedly killed in WCI. Perhaps something else happens to him and he later returns because of his possession/need to fix his mistakes. Sort of a Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White type deal.

2. Dreadlords would work well, I think. It gives them something to do before Warcraft III and doesn't make them so random in their actions there.

3. I was hoping Blizzard would have had some alternate name of some sort but it doesn't seem to.

4. Just gives reasons for Grom to not be in the initial war since you would think he would be.

5. What I meant by Blackhand having plans to unite the clans was that the Legion was forced to act and that they weren't originally going to use Ner'zhul to achieve their goals. Their original plan might have been to just use Gul'dan but Blackhand having these plans made them corrupt the Orcs the way that they did.

6. Up in the air on that one. I sort of like the whole anti-Eredar thing they have going on now. But who knows.



That's not really something we can control and we're just doing the best we can with what we have. If it changes then so be it, but as of now we'll give it a new name.



There is an Old God location called Ny'alotha. We could end it in -alotha to give it a connection to them.
1. I like that notion, it never seemed right that he'd die to Lothar in melee combat, i'm thinking Lothar and Garona kill his protective demons and Khadgar fucks with his magic causing him to seemingy explode or something but he survives, free of demonic influence in some manner. Possibly due to preparations he'd made when attempting to resist the demons?

2. Yeah, it makes it feel more like one cohesive invasion plot.

3. Sad but true.

4. Too useful in fighting local threats and too big a threat to Blackhand's power due to his popularity but less capable of being manipulated by Gul'dan. I think Blackhand would like him fine but Gul'dan would ensure Grom isn't present since he's too much of a wildcard, can't be bribed and is "Too dumb to fool".

5. Eh, Gul'dan was Ner'zhul's apprentice, unless we change it up so he was in power to begin with it's doubtful the Legion would've taken notice of him beforehand.

6. Draneredar would still exist as the counteparts to the Legion Eredar, they just wouldn't be Draenei.

7. Eh, any old god name would be forgotten long ago.
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  #57  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:28 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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That's not really something we can control and we're just doing the best we can with what we have. If it changes then so be it, but as of now we'll give it a new name.
That seems like an unnecessary constraint. We already seem to be quickly evolving from "let's rework the lore of the Warcraft series to suit our tastes" to "let's just take the core scenario of orcs invading through a portal and shape a new IP around it."
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  #58  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:35 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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That seems like an unnecessary constraint. We already seem to be quickly evolving from "let's rework the lore of the Warcraft series to suit our tastes" to "let's just take the core scenario of orcs invading through a portal and shape a new IP around it."
Because we don't want to have a continent, nation and planet share the same name?
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  #59  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:43 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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I would really propose not reworking core elements of Warcraft and just starting after Warcraft III - using the knowledge level we had a time, so excluding all the retcons that came after.
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  #60  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:45 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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1. I like that notion, it never seemed right that he'd die to Lothar in melee combat, i'm thinking Lothar and Garona kill his protective demons and Khadgar fucks with his magic causing him to seemingy explode or something but he survives, free of demonic influence in some manner. Possibly due to preparations he'd made when attempting to resist the demons?

2. Yeah, it makes it feel more like one cohesive invasion plot.

3. Sad but true.

4. Too useful in fighting local threats and too big a threat to Blackhand's power due to his popularity but less capable of being manipulated by Gul'dan. I think Blackhand would like him fine but Gul'dan would ensure Grom isn't present since he's too much of a wildcard, can't be bribed and is "Too dumb to fool".

5. Eh, Gul'dan was Ner'zhul's apprentice, unless we change it up so he was in power to begin with it's doubtful the Legion would've taken notice of him beforehand.

6. Draneredar would still exist as the counteparts to the Legion Eredar, they just wouldn't be Draenei.

7. Eh, any old god name would be forgotten long ago.
1. Maybe when he vanishes he goes into a semi-magical coma. Any of the negative magic (such as Khadgar aging) was the Dreadlord using Medivh's powers. The curse on the land could be combination.

2. Agreed.

3. No comment.

4. Maybe they leave some threat around (Ogres, Arakoa) and that's where Grom is. We could actually use Highmaul to keep Grom out of it. He's subjugating Highmaul and when he returns he has an Ogre army. There aren't any Ogres in WCI are there?

5. True, so it's just the Legion using Ner'zhul. I think it's kind of important to make as few Orcs as guilty as Gul'dan is as possible.

6. Have to disagree there, I like one of the reasons the Draenei are on Argus is because they're fleeing the Legion.

7. Unless it's whispered to them.

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That seems like an unnecessary constraint. We already seem to be quickly evolving from "let's rework the lore of the Warcraft series to suit our tastes" to "let's just take the core scenario of orcs invading through a portal and shape a new IP around it."
What Mutterscrawl said. And in a way this is a new IP, it's Scrolls of Lorecraft. It's an Ultimate Marvel.
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  #61  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:51 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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1. Maybe when he vanishes he goes into a semi-magical coma. Any of the negative magic (such as Khadgar aging) was the Dreadlord using Medivh's powers. The curse on the land could be combination.

2. Agreed.

3. No comment.

4. Maybe they leave some threat around (Ogres, Arakoa) and that's where Grom is. We could actually use Highmaul to keep Grom out of it. He's subjugating Highmaul and when he returns he has an Ogre army. There aren't any Ogres in WCI are there?

5. True, so it's just the Legion using Ner'zhul. I think it's kind of important to make as few Orcs as guilty as Gul'dan is as possible.

6. Have to disagree there, I like one of the reasons the Draenei are on Argus is because they're fleeing the Legion.

7. Unless it's whispered to them.



What Mutterscrawl said. And in a way this is a new IP, it's Scrolls of Lorecraft. It's an Ultimate Marvel.
The bit with Medivh could work.

There are ogres in WC1 but they're neutral monsters like brigands.

Well there should be a reasonable number of shadow council orcs and evil orcs even not in the shadow council, but by the same token, it'd be interesting to see orcs that join the shadow council and then realize "holy fuck these guys are crazy and awful".

Draneredar can still be on draenor alongside the original draenei, possible the originals are even sheltering and helping them hide.

Really not a fan of an old god name for the world though.

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I would really propose not reworking core elements of Warcraft and just starting after Warcraft III - using the knowledge level we had a time, so excluding all the retcons that came after.
What have we changed or suggested changing so far that's got everyone freaking out about changing too much "Core Stuff"?
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  #62  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:55 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Collaboration on such a massive scale is going to be hard, because there are so many differing opinions on what the world of Warcraft should be. There are going to be people who believe that the Forsaken shouldn't exist. Others believe the Alliance shouldn't exist. And so on. Here's an example:

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Everything starts with Vanilla WOW. It should've been a continuation of Warcraft 3, with the survivors of the Horde and Alliance rebuilding on Kalimdor. They would've had much more freedoms if they focused only on Kalimdor at first.
No hardcoded factions, just some races prefering each others company more than others and avoiding some entirely if they can.
Humans, Dwarves, High elves, Night elves, Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Goblins. Those should've been the first playable races.
Yaskaleh thinks Gnomes shouldn't have been an original playable race. And he has a point... there weren't any gnomes on Theramore! That Alliance just had humans, dwarves, and high elves. As we see in Warcraft III, gnomes are an inconsequential race that barely need to exist, if at all.

And Grackle cries, because Gnomes were a key ally in Warcraft II. And he looks to Warcraft III with its Dwarven Flying Machines and Dwarven Steam Engines and thinks, "Hey! Why'd you purge the gnomes out of lore, and give all of their cool stuff to the dwarves?! Let's go back further in time, and change Warcraft III so that we have gnomes piloting some of these obviously-gnomish inventions!"

And someone else rolls his eyes, pointing out that Gnomes were already unnecessary in Warcraft II, that we might as well go back further in franchise history and remove them from that game. Then we won't have to worry about them at all, with silly lasers and robot ostriches in this medieval fantasy setting.

And then Grackle says, "Yeah? Well Night Elves suck!" And that just isn't constructive at all.


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  #63  
Old 06-10-2015, 08:09 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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The bit with Medivh could work.

There are ogres in WC1 but they're neutral monsters like brigands.

Well there should be a reasonable number of shadow council orcs and evil orcs even not in the shadow council, but by the same token, it'd be interesting to see orcs that join the shadow council and then realize "holy fuck these guys are crazy and awful".

Draneredar can still be on draenor alongside the original draenei, possible the originals are even sheltering and helping them hide.

Really not a fan of an old god name for the world though.
Some Ogres possibly escaped there for their own reasons. It would also help explain the Ogre spread over the world. Since they're everywhere.

Yeah, I agree. I simply meant that some of the Orc leaders should be just as much tricked into the whole thing as the Orc population but then they aren't sure what to do once they're in the hole they've dug for themselves.

I'll have to disagree with the Draenei but for now that isn't terribly important.

As for the planet name that was just spit balling ideas.

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Silly Obvious Statement:

Collaboration on such a massive scale is going to be hard, because there are so many differing opinions on what the world of Warcraft should be. There are going to be people who believe that the Forsaken shouldn't exist. Others believe the Alliance shouldn't exist. And so on. Here's an example:
I don't know, it's just for fun. Even if some people don't like certain elements you still need them. We aren't trying to change Warcraft into Tolkien, we're just taking what Blizzard gave us and polishing it.
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  #64  
Old 06-10-2015, 08:12 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I'm against changing the cosmetics of the Draenei too much. I were never against the Lost-Broken-Draenei explanation. The Broken/Lost Draenei in Warcraft 3 were just what the orcs thought were the last of the Draenei.
What i'm against with the Draenei were their one-dimensional nature and the Naaru. Their one-dimensional nature remedied somewhat with WoD. The Naaru and the Army of the Light are concepts I strongly object to. I prefered the Light when it were something that came from within, the strong will of someone's soul in pure form.
I'd prefer if it was titanic watchers that saved the proto-Draenei from Sargeras. They could even be the watchers of Argus itself, looking like the Eredar just like how the titanic watchers of Azeroth look like the titanborn like the humans and the mogu.

The Naaru could still exist but I prefer their relationship to the void creatures to be more initimate. A dualistic nature, so that the Naaru can still be useful allies but of the double edged kind.
I prefer agents of the Titans as the organisers of resistence against the Burning Legion and the Old Gods. It would tie up well with us aiding the titanic watchers of Azeroth and thus gaining their participation in the organisation.
Imagine an organisation lead by titanic watchers from several worlds that has lost contact with their Titan makers so they gather to protect the works of their creators. Imagine Thorim leading the charge against the Burning Legion, with the players as their most trusted and resourceful agents.

The Naaru change could also apply to the Blood elves. Instead of somehow leeching the Light from a Naaru and thus regaining I'd prefer if their use of the Light were more like that of the Scarlets. Their seal and conviction channels the Light from their soul, when faith and devotion falters.
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  #65  
Old 06-10-2015, 08:35 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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They could even be the watchers of Argus itself, looking like the Eredar just like how the titanic watchers of Azeroth look like the titanborn like the humans and the mogu.

The Naaru change could also apply to the Blood elves. Instead of somehow leeching the Light from a Naaru and thus regaining I'd prefer if their use of the Light were more like that of the Scarlets. Their seal and conviction channels the Light from their soul, when faith and devotion falters.
1. I am DEEPLY against this, in my opinion the Titans are already in too many places and I don't like -practically everyone- being created by them.

2. I do like this, instead of enslaving Naaru I like Zealous belfs, though again I'm not a fan of the Naaru being overly involved in all the races religions.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:36 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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What if it was the opposite? What if the Naaru were created by the Draenei?
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:36 AM
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What have we changed or suggested changing so far that's got everyone freaking out about changing too much "Core Stuff"?
Well like changing stuff from WC1-3 or the name of the planet.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:38 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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What if it was the opposite? What if the Naaru were created by the Draenei?
Seems like too much of a jump for them to be created by a seemingly mortal race.

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Well like changing stuff from WC1-3 or the name of the planet.
The name of the planet doesn't seem like such a big deal, what from 1-3 are you concerned about?
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:38 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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1. I am DEEPLY against this, in my opinion the Titans are already in too many places and I don't like -practically everyone- being created by them.

2. I do like this, instead of enslaving Naaru I like Zealous belfs, though again I'm not a fan of the Naaru being overly involved in all the races religions.
With my version of the Naaru they wouldn't be part of any races religion at all.

We could remove any influence of the titans on the orcs and other natives of Draenor, if you agree to titanize the Draenei. Deal?

The Alliance would then be more titanic while the Horde leans on other powers.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:41 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Well like changing stuff from WC1-3 or the name of the planet.
The name of the planet is just so it's not so confusing when talking about any of the three Azeroths.

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With my version of the Naaru they wouldn't be part of any races religion at all.

We could remove any influence of the titans on the orcs and other natives of Draenor, if you agree to titanize the Draenei. Deal?

The Alliance would then be more titanic while the Horde leans on other powers.
I like your initial idea, but I also like the Draenei standing in parallel and contrast to the Titan creations.

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Old 06-10-2015, 08:49 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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With my version of the Naaru they wouldn't be part of any races religion at all.

We could remove any influence of the titans on the orcs and other natives of Draenor, if you agree to titanize the Draenei. Deal?

The Alliance would then be more titanic while the Horde leans on other powers.
Not solely my decision, we'll have to see how the others feel about it, I agree the Horde should draw on other forces whereas the Alliance is more titanic though.

How would you feel about the Eredar/Draenei being affected by the Titans in the way the Night Elves were? Not directly like humans and dwarves, but indirectly.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:55 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
The name of the planet is just so it's not so confusing when talking about any of the three Azeroths.
Can't believe I'm gonna say this, can't believe I'm gonna say this, can't believe I'm gonna say this...

It would be easier to retcon the continent's name to Stormwind, thus matching the city and kingdom. This would leave Azeroth as the unique name for the world.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:57 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Not solely my decision, we'll have to see how the others feel about it, I agree the Horde should draw on other forces whereas the Alliance is more titanic though.

How would you feel about the Eredar/Draenei being affected by the Titans in the way the Night Elves were? Not directly like humans and dwarves, but indirectly.
Sure, I'm all ok with that. You could then have their titanic watchers be more human, perhaps being an influence in their willingness to ally with the Alliance.
The ancient Argus were not made by the Titans but influenced by them. The proto-eredar were natives of Argus, just like the trolls. The titans through the titanic watchers influenced the proto-eredar which then became the eredar, masters of magic.
Sargeras then shows up after the titans had become silent and bent the eredar to his ways, though the eredar were already on the path towards cruelty and power hunger at the time. A small number of the more pure of heart declined Sargeras and were hunted down by their peers, taking shelter with the titanic watcher that resided there. They're later resuced and brought from the world by other watchers with the Man'ari Eredar hot in pursuit.
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Last edited by Yaskaleh; 06-10-2015 at 09:01 AM..
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  #74  
Old 06-10-2015, 09:00 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Can't believe I'm gonna say this, can't believe I'm gonna say this, can't believe I'm gonna say this...

It would be easier to retcon the continent's name to Stormwind, thus matching the city and kingdom. This would leave Azeroth as the unique name for the world.
I agree with you, but I was trying to avoid that too.


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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
Sure, I'm all ok with that. You could then have their titanic watchers be more human, perhaps being an influence in their willingness to ally with the Alliance.
The ancient Argus were not made by the Titans but influenced by them. The proto-eredar were natives of Argus, just like the trolls. The titans through the titanic watchers influenced the proto-eredar which then became the eredar, masters of magic.
Sargeras then shows up after the titans had become silent and bent the eredar to his ways, though the eredar were already on the path towards cruelty and power hunger at the time. A small number of the more pure of heart declined Sargeras and were hunted down by their peers, taking shelter with the titanic watcher that resided there. They're later resuced and brought from the world by other watchers with the Man'ari Eredar hot in pursuit.
What if the Ogres were the Titan influenced too? Though it seems that those who are influenced by the Titans are often (not always) more inclined to worship the Light.
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:05 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I agree with you, but I was trying to avoid that too.




What if the Ogres were the Titan influenced too? Though it seems that those who are influenced by the Titans are often (not always) more inclined to worship the Light.
I'd prefer to keep Draenor a world never visited by the Titans, which could be why the Draenei believed they would be safe there as the Burning Legion seeks out worlds that are touched by the titans to undo their work.
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