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Old 12-12-2016, 03:57 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Default Is Fel a coalescence of Light and Shadow?

  • The prime naaru may have been created by Elune during the great ordering of Light and Shadow
  • The Twisting Nether (also known as the endless void,[2] the Nether,[3] and nether world)[4] is the astral plane between worlds,[3] described as the line between the ebb of Light and the flow of Void.[5] It is said that in the beginning there was Light and there was Void and a time long ago, the two collided in the abyss of the Great Dark, which the Twisting Nether overlaps with.[3]
  • Fel magic, the language of chaos[3][4] and the primal force of chaos,[5]

Hi, this is necrophotic2.0 and I bring you a question about Fel.

Chaos is often referred to in fantasy universes as a mix of light and darkness.

The game and Chronicle both give us quite a few references on how the Twisting Nether, chaos, and maybe therefore fel come from both light and shadow in coalescence.

The question is in the title, I don't need to repeat it.

However, if that's true, then how does Holy work? Because we clearly see some titanforged practices of Holy, mainly within Odyn's Valkyrja and their priestesses.

If there was an ordering of light and shadow, maybe is fel the original point and from it the void beings were born? Would explain why fel is so powerful and why it holds such a powerful influence over any being.

Even some holy beings, as we can see from Soulpriestess Nyami.

However, Naaru don't have a fel form. When they get touched, even by fel practicants, they go VOID.

Ideas?
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:51 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I'm not sure I understand... Besides Light and Void/Shadow, isn't everything a mixture of Light and Void particles? What exactly makes you believe that this particular compound is in any way special, besides it being unstable or chaotic? And why should its existence hinder the continued existence of pure Light and Void, and their use? I mean, Oxygen still exists on its own, despite water being a thing.
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:55 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I'm not sure I understand... Besides Light and Void/Shadow, isn't everything a mixture of Light and Void particles? What exactly makes you believe that this particular compound is in any way special, besides it being unstable or chaotic? And why should its existence hinder the continued existence of pure Light and Void, and their use? I mean, Oxygen still exists on its own, despite water being a thing.
Water wasn't born from the ordering of oxygen and hydrogen.

~~~~~the ordering~~~~~
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Water wasn't born from the ordering of oxygen and hydrogen.

~~~~~the ordering~~~~~
Nor was the universe born from the ordering of the Light and the Void.
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:06 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Nor was the universe born from the ordering of the Light and the Void.
Twisting Nether = fel, right?
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:19 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Twisting Nether = fel, right?
There's nothing explicitly saying that fel originates from the Nether, nor that the Nether is made solely out of fel. Imagine the Nether like an ocean and fel like water. There's a lot of water in an ocean, yet it sure is not the only thing there is, and water does not originates from an ocean.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:05 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Water wasn't born from the ordering of oxygen and hydrogen.

~~~~~the ordering~~~~~
The real world is far more complex than Warcraft, so it has more elements than just two

Light and Void are still simply building blocks, so I'd say that the comparison is valid. Besides, we have plenty evidence that pure Light and Void, and beings born of them, did exist even after the ordering.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:25 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The real world is far more complex than Warcraft, so it has more elements than just two

Light and Void are still simply building blocks, so I'd say that the comparison is valid. Besides, we have plenty evidence that pure Light and Void, and beings born of them, did exist even after the ordering.
That's more what the elements are. Light and Shadow are simply two pre-existencial forces whose ultimate collision created all planes of being with all their rules and energies, and which still permeate these planes from the outside in the form of the Void energies and the Holy Light.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:54 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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So it's safe to assume that Holy and Void are both extremes of something.

Be that something either 'oceans of everything' or pure diabolic fel.

I still bet on the latter.
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:43 AM
Kiraser Kiraser is offline

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However, if that's true, then how does Holy work? Because we clearly see some titanforged practices of Holy, mainly within Odyn's Valkyrja and their priestesses.
It's not a big deal, since there were titan-forged who even used the Void energies, like Setesh. That guy also used a lot of "Chaos" spells, that are most likely Fel-based.

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If there was an ordering of light and shadow, maybe is fel the original point and from it the void beings were born? Would explain why fel is so powerful and why it holds such a powerful influence over any being.
Void beings are from the Void. Well, some of them could get born in the Great Dark like naaru did. But we don't really know this. In any case, the ocean of Light and the Void are older than the Nether, and the Void has Void Lords, the beings of, well, Void. It's highly unlikely, that Nether has something to do with birth of light/shadow "elementals".

Fel is seemingly so powerful because its strength lies in the ability to burn something to make itself stronger. Fel is like a flame, and it can find fuel for itself pretty much everywhere.

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However, Naaru don't have a fel form. When they get touched, even by fel practicants, they go VOID.
As for the fel Naaru, yes, we haven't seen one. But spellcasters used Void magic to corrupt them, not Fel magic. I've made some research for one of my articles, so I can back this up:

K'ure started to turn into the Void due to the "wound" he got in the crashing of Oshu'gun. He spawned an unseen Void storm that was simply subjugated by demons years later in order to summon Void minions into the Legion.

AU K'ure got transformed into a void god by AU Cho'gall via the Void.

D'ore's case didn't involve any warlocks. He was simply restoring his wounds after the crash of Genedar. All just went really bad thanks to the summoning of Murmur and the fact that the Auchenai went crazy and stopped helping D'ore.

M'uru was transformed by the Legion. And here's the point. The Legion has a very good knowledge of shadow magic, it would make sense for them to turn a naaru into the Void state, since they know the outcome. In this case they required another guardian to halt the Shattered Sun army. Nothing more.

K'ara went nuts thanks to the Genedar incident. No warlocks employed here.

S'aara. The story of her corruption is a mystery.

And we've seen Fel-infused Void creatures. Take a look at Xhul'horac. Gul'dan twisted him and infused with Fel. Why? He wanted this void revenant to summon demons for him. So if it's possible to infuse a void creature with Fel, the same should be possible with a being of Light.

So... here's the idea. I'm pretty sure that the Chronicle portraits Fel as the embodiment of chaos that was born by the explosive interactions of the Light and the Void. So it's not really an embodiment of these two powers, but of the concept of disorder that was created by them.

It's also important to note, that Fel has an opposing force - the Arcane. The Arcane is the force of order that exists in the Universe. So the way I see it, is that the creation of reality also gave birth to the new axis of power: order and disorder, life and death. Fel and Arcane were also described by the devs as opposite ends of the same spectrum.

But it's still probably safe to say that a tiny bit of Light and Shadow can be found in many different things in the Nether and the Great Dark. For example, every living creature is said to have a spark of Light within it (which makes the existence of the Old Gods pretty interesting, since they are living creatures without a traditional spark of life).

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
I think it's safer to assume that, beyond pure Light and Void, which everything is made of, ordered Light + Void resulted in Arcane, while disordered Light + Void resulted in Fel. Other forces, such as Nature and Death magic, are somewhere in-between.
It's actually a really interesting topic, since Kosak said the close circles from the cosmological chart are associated but not linked.Fel is closer to the Light. Maybe because Light is a moving force? Fel is also close to Death. Since it brings death when its fuel burn away, right? Death is close to the Void - because it's still and empty?

Arcane is closer to the Void. Maybe because the Void is stagnant, which makes it more orderly? Arcane is also close to Life, since arcane energies often act as a lifeblood of the world via ley lines. Life is also close to the Light, since living creatures tend to have an inner spark of Life.

Circles of creatures, elements and planes of existence all have similar associations. Yet it's important that like Kosak said, association doesn't equal a link.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:13 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Your comment about the Old Gods not having any spark of Light is interesting - it explains how they aren't really living things, and why they always seem to remain even after their supposed 'death'.

They do not live, they do not die, they are outside the cycle.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:31 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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Your comment about the Old Gods not having any spark of Light is interesting - it explains how they aren't really living things, and why they always seem to remain even after their supposed 'death'.

They do not live, they do not die, they are outside the cycle.
Well they are called "parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes" which is kind of a throw away line that sort of refers to the "dead lights" of Steven King's IT. It seems based upon what was revealed in the Chronicle's diagram that they are void entitys.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:35 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I don't think the naaru became Void Gods just because they were tampered with with Void - I think it is natural to the naaru.

Why?

I believe there is something in their origin that we don't yet know. Consider this quote:

Quote:
I know the naaru consider us horrors to be resisted. We do not share this view. They are merely beloved brethren that lost the true path. They will return to their masters... in time.
- Xal'atath, Blade of the Black Empire

They are brethren, somehow. I believe the naaru are not simply the Old Gods that instead came from the Light - no, I believe there is something more to them, something sinister, that they are either hiding from us or sincerely trying to mend.

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Do the Naaru talk of their servants that came before the Draenei? No? Aahahahah!
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:25 PM
Kiraser Kiraser is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
I don't think the naaru became Void Gods just because they were tampered with with Void - I think it is natural to the naaru.

Why?

I believe there is something in their origin that we don't yet know. Consider this quote:


- Xal'atath, Blade of the Black Empire

They are brethren, somehow. I believe the naaru are not simply the Old Gods that instead came from the Light - no, I believe there is something more to them, something sinister, that they are either hiding from us or sincerely trying to mend.
I covered my opinion about these topics in my Russian article. Maybe it's a good opportunity to finally translate it. Dunno.

Anyway, the motives of the naaru are seemingly quite simple. The Chronicle and the story of T'uure plainly state that the naaru are beings of Light who vowed to protect the Life at all costs. When they were formed, they saw the Universe of great wonders and possibilities and sweared to protect it. What is also important here is that the naaru were born from the shards of Light from the ocean of Light. Yet these shard became naaru in the Great Dark Beyond (perhaps Elune had sent those shards of the first naaru into the reality, if we are to tie in her involvement in their birth with the Chronicle). So the naaru aren't really creatures of some other dimension like the void lords and the Old Gods, who were formed within the Void. It means that naaru aren't aliens in the Great Dark and not out of place there.

The naaru vowed to protect all life. But why? It's kind of simple as well. So the naaru are like the living beings formed from the Light. And the ocean of Light isn't just a magical force or a place, it's an ocean of living energies that created songs of happiness and hope. In the same way, the naaru also sing of happiness and hope, they embody these emotions. But let's return to the protection of life. Life was born thanks to the sparks of Light, and that is why the naaru are so attuned to the idea of saving life - it's part of their nature.

The same is true for the Void. Void is always hungry, it simply cannot sate its appetite, to the point that it threatens to feed upon itself. And in the same way void beings are always hungry and often act upon this sense of great thirst.

***

As for the transformation into the Void God, it's a difficult topic. But to make it short: the naaru themselves view such transformation as a horrible tragedy, and in the same way the reverse transition makes them beyond joyful.

But why this transformation is even possible? Well, keep in mind that the beings of the Light and the Void embody all there is to the forces that stand behind their creation. And the Void first formed from the empty spaces that were left behind by the ever-expanding and ever-moving ocean of Light. The Void is born from the lack of Light. And just like this, when a naaru gets a horrid injury he starts to lose its Light, and the Void starts to form in its place.

And that's where it gets complicated. The naaru view void god and darked naaru incidents with great grief, but they are still familiar with the Void. It's because when a naaru gets a serious injury and starts to form Void from said bad spot... it's not always the end. If the wound is beoynd hope, it will turn into a dark naaru or a void god. But if it's moderate, a naaru is able to heal it in time. Like D'ore did.

And maybe this understanding of Void due to the said healing cycle is the reason why naaru aren't super antagonistic towards void creatures. A'dal stated that Void creatures form a necessary part of creation, yet they must be kept in check. Still, Velen's visions show that in the end of the day the naaru are ready to fight against the Void in the last battle of creation.

***

And now we can finally talk about Xal'atath. What is this dagger? It's a being of the Void. Maybe it's a spawn from the talon of Y'Shaarj or even the last remains of the fifth Old God that were devoured by its kin when they first arrived on Azeroth. We can't say for sure, since it's all just theories of various historians. Yet Xal'atath is peculiar - she wants to get revenge for what was done to her by the Old Gods. But she still takes pride in their achievements and even helped them on some occasions. Why? She is loyal to the Void Lords. She doesn't want N'Zoth to be the ultimate victor of the long war for Azeroth, yet she craves for Azeroth to fall into the clutches of the Void.

So why she talks about naaru like that? There are three possibilities. First, she's mistaken and doesn't understand what she's talking about. It's a boring answer. The other one is even more simple - she lies to the priest. Xal'atath is known to lie and to spread mischief, yet her whispers to the leader of Conclave are usually on spot. And... the third possibility. She doesn't lie, yet she views the situation from a very narrow point of view. She is a creature of the Void, and it's natural for her to view the Light with contempt. After all, the Old Gods have never shown respect to the opposing force of creation, like naaru did. On the contrary, their goal is to warp the order of things, they want the Void to feed upon reality. So here's my two cents, she may view the Light as merely unborn Void. The Void was born from the absence of Light, so she might think that in the end all Light will fade and there will be only Void. So the naaru are merely Void Gods who didn't lose their Light... yet.

But the Light has its own will. It simply exists. Just like the Void. These are two sides of the same coin.

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"Twilight" which is a separate power is more of what you are thinking of. Fel has always been suggested as more akin to being like a raw corrupted Arcane.
Maybe initially the devs viewed the Twilight as a union of the Light and Shadow, but I seriously doubt that it's still the case. This magic was introduced back in Cataclysm, when we could still speculate that the Old Gods are some sort of utter abberations even for the Void.

But now we know that the Old Gods are creations of the void lords. Moreover, they are spawn of the Void that were tossed in the reality. That's why they are so out of place here - they aren't supposed to be here. The flesh that was born without a spark of Light. The existence that was orchestrated by beings who can't even properly manifest themselves in the reality. It's like the Old Gods embody the Void that is way too dark and incomprehensible for reality. They are creatures of the Void. The Chronicle and the artifact stories reference their magic as the Void.

So Twilight magic is probably another name of the Void, or a certain version of it that is spawned by the Old Gods and their believers. Feasel thinks the same.

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Old 12-13-2016, 10:43 AM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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http://wowmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Fel_energy


^Skip to 11:00. Fel energy is demonic unless Chris Metzen himself is a liar, which means that it can't exist without demons and - by extension - the Twisting Nether, which the Warcraft II manual establishes as the realm of the dead. Ultimately, demons and the realm of the dead demons are the source of fel energy (a.k.a death energy) and the Lore Historian Sean Copeland is a liar for claiming that warlocks (a.k.a demonologists) don't harness their power from the Twisting Nether (the place demons are from) and that demons aren't the source of the demonic fel magic. He would claim the demonic fel magic is created when energy is something you can't actually create. If anything, demons and their fel energies have always existed given that they transcend all realities.

That is all

*dips out of thread*

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Old 12-15-2016, 05:58 PM
Grimo Grimo is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
  • The prime naaru may have been created by Elune during the great ordering of Light and Shadow
  • The Twisting Nether (also known as the endless void,[2] the Nether,[3] and nether world)[4] is the astral plane between worlds,[3] described as the line between the ebb of Light and the flow of Void.[5] It is said that in the beginning there was Light and there was Void and a time long ago, the two collided in the abyss of the Great Dark, which the Twisting Nether overlaps with.[3]
  • Fel magic, the language of chaos[3][4] and the primal force of chaos,[5]

Hi, this is necrophotic2.0 and I bring you a question about Fel.

Chaos is often referred to in fantasy universes as a mix of light and darkness.

The game and Chronicle both give us quite a few references on how the Twisting Nether, chaos, and maybe therefore fel come from both light and shadow in coalescence.

The question is in the title, I don't need to repeat it.

However, if that's true, then how does Holy work? Because we clearly see some titanforged practices of Holy, mainly within Odyn's Valkyrja and their priestesses.

If there was an ordering of light and shadow, maybe is fel the original point and from it the void beings were born? Would explain why fel is so powerful and why it holds such a powerful influence over any being.

Even some holy beings, as we can see from Soulpriestess Nyami.

However, Naaru don't have a fel form. When they get touched, even by fel practicants, they go VOID.

Ideas?
The answer for this is in Chronicle. If you look at the map of the cosmology at the beginning of the book, you see Fel wedged between Light and Death, with Fire as its corresponding element. So it seems that Fel is more like a perversion of Light (and the heat associated with it, hence fel fire) in order to bring Death.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:45 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The answer for this is in Chronicle. If you look at the map of the cosmology at the beginning of the book, you see Fel wedged between Light and Death, with Fire as its corresponding element. So it seems that Fel is more like a perversion of Light (and the heat associated with it, hence fel fire) in order to bring Death.
pls don't feed the 'infernals are undead' 'theory'
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:29 PM
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'infernals are undead' 'theory'
Quote:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...archmage.shtml

Blizzard will not hurt enemy units with Spell Immunity such as Night Elf Dryads, Undead units with Anti-Magic Shell, Undead Infernals, or Creeps with Spell Immunity.
^Canon source vs. Your headcanon that it's a theory that infernals are undead. LET'S GO. SHOWDOWN. LET'S FIGHT
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:45 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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It refers to custom game mechanic in which Infernals can only be summoned by an undead hero.
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:51 PM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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It refers to custom game mechanic in which Infernals can only be summoned by an undead hero.
Nope. There you can clearly see that infernals are described as undead by canon. You're just taking information out of context, twisting it then presenting it to people as fact. Btw, infernals - when regarding to WCIII - are summoned by the demons known as the nathrezim. Are they undead? You just claimed that it refers to custom game mechanic in which Infernals can only be summoned by an undead hero.

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Old 12-15-2016, 10:55 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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pls don't feed the 'infernals are undead' 'theory'
There's nothing to feed, the theory is utter bogus. Necrophotic is either just a troll who has too much time on his hands, or a little child that can't accept that warlocks are not necromancers while running around screaming "you are all liars!".

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Old 12-15-2016, 11:05 PM
necrophotic necrophotic is offline

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Naah...it's just that you can't accept that warlocks are necromancers. Now, stop yapping about me for a moment.


I wonder whose the liar here. Chris Metzen - Godking of Blizzard - or Micky Neilson - veteran of Blizzard Entertainment

https://mobile.twitter.com/MickyNeil...79221265629184

Chris claims fel energy is essentially death energy (a necrotic power per the Chronicle) even though the veteran of Blizzard entertainment claims that fel magic isn't death magic. Both of them can't be telling the truth regarding this matter, which means that one of them is lying about this subject. So, whose the liar Marthen? Micky, the person whose Blood of the Highborne story generalized orcish warlocks as diabolical necromancers probably because Gul'dan and his warlocks infused the magical abilities of deceased warlocks into Ogres who gained necromantic abilities after the infusion, or Metzen?

Perhaps Metzen's statement was retcon'ed? Oh man, if Metzen retcon'ed his own statement, he sure is a wishy washy writer who can't maintain a consistent and coherent story. From draining life, to converting life into an entropic and poisonous force Metzen describes as death energy, to binding the souls of fel constructs (e.g. infernals) to their will, to tainting nature with shadow magic, to afflicting enemies with a seed of corruption (plagued grain?), to even manipulating doomfire spirits, warlocks are clearly manipulators of life and death. And to state warlocks aren't manipulators of life and death is to deny all things warlocks are about.

Last edited by necrophotic; 12-16-2016 at 07:37 AM..
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Old 12-16-2016, 04:25 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Thank you for proving my point yet again with your little temper tantrum here.
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