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  #4801  
Old 04-09-2018, 09:01 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Oh boy! I love arguing about the faction conflict. Such a riveting discussion! Filled with canonical sources with easy interpretations to allow intellectually honest conversations. I sure do love this upcoming expansion, and what it does for the player base. I can't wait to engage with others, and build friendships out of our mutual love of the story.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #4802  
Old 04-09-2018, 09:27 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Hopefully they wont be using OverSensitiveWatchs stuff for harassment.
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  #4803  
Old 04-09-2018, 11:48 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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I kind of hope Warfronts become more a World PvP sandbox type thing. Would be a GREAT way to incentivize world pvp again.
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  #4804  
Old 04-09-2018, 12:46 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Melorandor View Post
I kind of hope Warfronts become more a World PvP sandbox type thing. Would be a GREAT way to incentivize world pvp again.
Except World PvP is not something that should be incentivized.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-09-2018 at 12:49 PM..
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  #4805  
Old 04-09-2018, 01:21 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Encouraged, yes. It would be a superior endeavor than dedicating "resources and time" to creating battlegrounds that most people may or may not blacklist or ever touch in the future.

Besides, it would all be optional in the end unless you want to participate in such.

Last edited by Melorandor; 04-09-2018 at 01:31 PM..
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  #4806  
Old 04-09-2018, 01:32 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Except World PvP is not something that should be incentivized.
Well, having Honor Talents available 24/7 while outdoors is more than enough of an incentive for me.

And btw Warfronts are going to be PvE.
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  #4807  
Old 04-09-2018, 01:33 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Warfronts should have a PvP mode.
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  #4808  
Old 04-09-2018, 02:54 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Not really even encouraged.

PvP is already facilitated in BG's and Arenas. Being flagged outdoors as an individual risk on PvP servers is all well and good, but the only thing deliberate, "organized" World PvP really offers that instanced PvP lacks is the ability to screw with people who don't actually want to PvP, be it by ganking, "tricking" people into flagging, or wiping out entire questhubs over and over.

If people want to relive the days of Southshore/Tarren Mill, then they should call for bigger, larger-population Battlegrounds focused solely on accruing kills. Something that arguably should exist anyway, if only to perhaps alleviate the other BG's of those players who would rather spend entire battles farming kills while ignoring the actual objectives.

And if it absolutely has to be in the outside world among the rest of us to be enjoyable, then that I guess that just means they're only really into World PvP for the opportunity to maliciously harass non-PvPers and keep them from playing the game.
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  #4809  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:00 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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ARM is turning into me. That or i'm an alternate universe clone of his. Either way i enjoy the delicious fury over World PvP.

Then again with the departure of forced PvP mode i couldn't give less of a shit what Warmode players are doing. Which is, of course, very little - the moment you make them ONLY see other PvPers they'll all realize they can't just gank levelling lowies anymore. Make no mistake, Warmode will be the final nail in World "PvP"'s coffin. Even if they go forth with their idiotic plan to shower people in talents and experience points for turning it on; no one's gonna be dumb enough to level in Warmode unless you literally get a level for every quest.
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  #4810  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:32 PM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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I will.
Because I'm good at the game and deleting people with Lighting Wolf empowered Stromstrike Crits / WF procs is fun af.
Also more depth to the War Campaign quests.
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  #4811  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:04 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Not really even encouraged.

PvP is already facilitated in BG's and Arenas. Being flagged outdoors as an individual risk on PvP servers is all well and good, but the only thing deliberate, "organized" World PvP really offers that instanced PvP lacks is the ability to screw with people who don't actually want to PvP, be it by ganking, "tricking" people into flagging, or wiping out entire questhubs over and over.

If people want to relive the days of Southshore/Tarren Mill, then they should call for bigger, larger-population Battlegrounds focused solely on accruing kills. Something that arguably should exist anyway, if only to perhaps alleviate the other BG's of those players who would rather spend entire battles farming kills while ignoring the actual objectives.

And if it absolutely has to be in the outside world among the rest of us to be enjoyable, then that I guess that just means they're only really into World PvP for the opportunity to maliciously harass non-PvPers and keep them from playing the game.
You just hate anything having to deal with fighting other players.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #4812  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
You just hate anything having to deal with fighting other players.
I hate having to do things involving fighting other players, yes.

I've no problem with PvP having its time and place. Namely, apart from PvE and definitively so.

When effort is made to force coexistence between the two - as was routinely done up until around late MoP/early WoD - PvP has served only to undermine PvE, resulting in the former's ongoing and irreconcilable struggles with balance causing rampant culling and nerfing of talents and skills at the expense of the latter.

More times than I can count, stuns and buffs and CC would be ripped out of class toolkits because they were overpowered in PvP. Never did I witness PvP losing an ability because it made a class just too damned good at questing and killing bosses. They finally fixed that by segregating PvP's mechanics and talents from those of PvE, and trying to cram the two into a shared environment - i.e. promoting World PvP - is a step back toward the era of gimping the rest of the game for the sake of accommodating PvP.

Last edited by ARM3481; 04-09-2018 at 06:59 PM..
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  #4813  
Old 04-09-2018, 07:33 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Not really even encouraged.

PvP is already facilitated in BG's and Arenas. Being flagged outdoors as an individual risk on PvP servers is all well and good, but the only thing deliberate, "organized" World PvP really offers that instanced PvP lacks is the ability to screw with people who don't actually want to PvP, be it by ganking, "tricking" people into flagging, or wiping out entire questhubs over and over.

If people want to relive the days of Southshore/Tarren Mill, then they should call for bigger, larger-population Battlegrounds focused solely on accruing kills. Something that arguably should exist anyway, if only to perhaps alleviate the other BG's of those players who would rather spend entire battles farming kills while ignoring the actual objectives.

And if it absolutely has to be in the outside world among the rest of us to be enjoyable, then that I guess that just means they're only really into World PvP for the opportunity to maliciously harass non-PvPers and keep them from playing the game.
I have no idea what you're exactly criticizing. Players in War Mode will be in a separate shard from players without it.
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  #4814  
Old 04-09-2018, 08:09 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I have no idea what you're exactly criticizing. Players in War Mode will be in a separate shard from players without it.
Because even if you're in War Mode, you're still interacting with the PvE world. Unless mechanics for mobs and the like also work differently in that other shard, it will remain an issue. As soon as that's the case, the incentive arises to try to balance PvE to accommodate PvP and vice-versa so that nobody who opts for War Mode is at a disadvantage against world content. Especially when engaging in World PvP so traditionally involves facing faction NPC guards - i.e. mobs, a function of and balanced for PvE.

How long will players who turn on War Mode need to complain about their activated honor talents being inferior for questing and fighting NPC's to the PvE equivalents before the devs cave and start screwing with everyone's balance to fix it?
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  #4815  
Old 04-09-2018, 08:30 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Because even if you're in War Mode, you're still interacting with the PvE world. Unless mechanics for mobs and the like also work differently in that other shard, it will remain an issue. As soon as that's the case, the incentive arises to try to balance PvE to accommodate PvP and vice-versa so that nobody who opts for War Mode is at a disadvantage against world content. Especially when engaging in World PvP so traditionally involves facing faction NPC guards - i.e. mobs, a function of and balanced for PvE.

How long will players who turn on War Mode need to complain about their activated honor talents being inferior for questing and fighting NPC's to the PvE equivalents before the devs cave and start screwing with everyone's balance to fix it?
There's no need to balance PvE around PvP when War Mode makes it possible for the devs to input special PvP-exclusive bonus objectives, such as a crate of resources dropping from the sky to be fought over. That's literally an example Ion gave over at PAX.

Not to mention that they already said that players will receive bonus experience from leveling with War Mode active, so I have no idea why PvE mobs would be harder to kill during War Mode.
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  #4816  
Old 04-09-2018, 08:31 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Because even if you're in War Mode, you're still interacting with the PvE world. Unless mechanics for mobs and the like also work differently in that other shard, it will remain an issue. As soon as that's the case, the incentive arises to try to balance PvE to accommodate PvP and vice-versa so that nobody who opts for War Mode is at a disadvantage against world content. Especially when engaging in World PvP so traditionally involves facing faction NPC guards - i.e. mobs, a function of and balanced for PvE.

How long will players who turn on War Mode need to complain about their activated honor talents being inferior for questing and fighting NPC's to the PvE equivalents before the devs cave and start screwing with everyone's balance to fix it?
I don't see anything saying pve talents go away with war mode.

Last edited by Leviathon; 04-09-2018 at 08:34 PM..
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  #4817  
Old 04-09-2018, 08:45 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I don't see anything saying pve talents go away with war mode.
As I understand, the 'equivalents' in his phrase refers to PvP version of the PvE NPCs, which would have separate balancing for some reason.
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  #4818  
Old 04-10-2018, 06:25 AM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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Because shit like Chain Lightning on Stormstrike or 10 sec Bloodlust warrants a seperate balancing for the bear whose ass I'm gonna collect.

Just write "I don't like it" ARM, these arguments are silly and I somehow doubt you PvE on a level where it was ever relevant what PvP did to PvE (tho there were some wonky decisions, the fault here was more with Blizzard than the system tho).
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  #4819  
Old 04-10-2018, 08:37 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
Because shit like Chain Lightning on Stormstrike or 10 sec Bloodlust warrants a seperate balancing for the bear whose ass I'm gonna collect.

Just write "I don't like it" ARM, these arguments are silly and I somehow doubt you PvE on a level where it was ever relevant what PvP did to PvE (tho there were some wonky decisions, the fault here was more with Blizzard than the system tho).
That's more than a little unfair.

I loved world PvP, but mine was a specific experience. When my points were done for the week and I was in no danger of falling behind in gear and when I had felt I had ended a week on a good note, I'd go back to Darnassus for RP. Cenarion Circle shared cross realm zones with WRA and occasionally Moon Guard, so there was a good, sizeable community to interact with (probably the only one of decent size). Towards the tail end of WoD, city raids were a thing. I had a policy of responding to pings, even if I had to break off a session. Most people understood, some people didn't.

These were fun events. We had a core group of defenders who would normally be able to stop most attackers, including most "For the Horde" raids. After a while though, it got to the point where people got sick of it. The group of defenders shrunk and shrunk because, while it was fun the first few times, people had other things they wanted to do, and there was really no reward for it.

Defending smaller towns was worse. Sometimes there would be a group that I would have to strategically address, but most of the time I would arrive, trash the attacker, and watch them rez and mount up. There they would sit, hovering, waiting for me to get bored and leave. It got to the point where I would unstealth and stand out in the open to try and get them to attack me. Usually they would do no such thing. Fifteen minutes later, after I had left, world defense would be screaming again. If I do come back, I know the same thing will repeat. If I don't, lowbies can't quest, but I also can't spend hours being a maid because someone wants to have a power fantasy at someone else's expense.

I don't know how you fix these problems or if sharding is the best way, but acknowledging that there are problems is not the same as hating PvP. I always thought this problem would have been much better if flying wasn't possible in pre-BC zones. But, that's not a change anyone is likely to implement.
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  #4820  
Old 04-10-2018, 11:04 AM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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Ok.
Uuuuh.
Easy fix: don't play on a PvP server.
I'm magic like that.
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  #4821  
Old 04-10-2018, 11:11 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorandor View Post
Warfronts should have a PvP mode.
Agreed

Also they need to do something about the pruning them having pvp talents for pve is good but the issue is that you have such big level gaps between abilities that it's sad either add more abilities to classes (remove specs or keep them but just let them be for talent choices, or just make the classes into more of umbrella class and have the specs excel at stuff like resto druid having feral and guardian abilities or frost dk having death strike
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  #4822  
Old 04-10-2018, 11:35 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
Ok.
Uuuuh.
Easy fix: don't play on a PvP server.
I'm magic like that.
Everything I just described happened on PVE servers. I didn't mind RP-PVP servers, and despite my choice in realm I primarily PVPed, but PVP servers alone do not fix the issues with World PVP.
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  #4823  
Old 04-10-2018, 11:43 AM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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Everything I just described happened on PVE servers. I didn't mind RP-PVP servers, and despite my choice in realm I primarily PVPed, but PVP servers alone do not fix the issues with World PVP.
Then it's even less relevant cause that was 10 years ago and no one gives a fuck anymore since you can quest anywhere anytime now.
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  #4824  
Old 04-10-2018, 11:43 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Then it's even less relevant cause that was 10 years ago and no one gives a fuck anymore since you can quest anywhere anytime now.
WoD did not end ten years ago.

Edit: Most of the time you had the choice of multiple questing zones back then too, as well. Missed that part.
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  #4825  
Old 04-10-2018, 01:26 PM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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I don't get your point then. Shit like Tarren Mill and Astranaar were a thing because escalating world PvP on PvP servers in Vanilla but apparently you're talking about players killing quest npcs on PvE servers in later xpacs and therefore World PvP has issues?
Did you just take the chance to tell a very boring and very wordy bragging anecdote?
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