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  #101  
Old 12-02-2018, 06:23 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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What about the Old Gods and Void Lords? A place for them as the resident Lovecraft Wannabes?

On a different but still relevant direction what about the Trolls, Pandaren, Dwarves and Gnomes, Goblins? Their histories, abilities, etc.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 12-02-2018 at 06:31 AM..
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  #102  
Old 12-02-2018, 11:58 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Gnomes
Gelbin "King of Gnomes" Mekkatorque has supposedly been the elected High Tinker for over 30 years, during numerous wars, invasions, and liberations, experiencing key policy changes in diplomacy and administration... all without ever having to experience a single re-election event. And without showing us the initial election, if there ever was one. In comparison, consider how many kings and other autocrats have lived and died during that time.

Such unquestioned longevity deserves a little explanation at the very least, but we know virtually nothing about how Gnomish government and succession even works. This is lazy writing.

EDIT: For comparison: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ers_since_1900
He's ruled longer than Joseph Stalin or John Paul II. He'd probably need about 5-10 more years to pass Kim Il-sung or Fidel Castro, depending on when he was actually elected. It's possible he's beaten them already.

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  #103  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:19 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Holy Light, The Void, Arcane, Fel, Nature, Death. What about how they work and what its spokesmem are like in this Nu-Craft?
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  #104  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:09 AM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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Such unquestioned longevity deserves a little explanation at the very least, but we know virtually nothing about how Gnomish government and succession even works. This is lazy writing.
They need more prominent Gnome characters, period.

It's sad that the next most famous gnome is not even a gnome, but a Bronze Dragon.
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  #105  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:30 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
What about the Old Gods and Void Lords? A place for them as the resident Lovecraft Wannabes?

On a different but still relevant direction what about the Trolls, Pandaren, Dwarves and Gnomes, Goblins? Their histories, abilities, etc.
As I said, the Old Gods et al are unnecessary if we already have the countless demonic races fulfilling the role of generic destructive invaders.

Do the other races need to be rewritten under Retrocraft? I imagine their current backgrounds could be retained largely unchanged.

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
The Holy Light, The Void, Arcane, Fel, Nature, Death. What about how they work and what its spokesmem are like in this Nu-Craft?
That depends on what role we want them to play. The first two games only ever defined magic classes as clerics, conjurers, necromancers and warlocks. Of these, the necromancers and warlocks seemed to be different expressions of the same underlying religion.

While it makes sense to classify magic by what it affects, those six categories in particular are unnecessarily vague and arbitrary. What are they supposed to mean, really? Looking over the Warcraft wiki definitions, they are fairly vague and have a number of overlapping effects.

If we want to keep them, then we need to pin down what they can and cannot do, what separates them to begin with. What are they actually supposed to do?

That is why I suggested (inspired by Legacy of Kain) increasing the number of Guardians of Tirisfal and associating each one with a particular facet of reality, to the point of giving each facet a physical pillar tied to the stability of Azeroth.

The six categories of magic are an obvious retcon, as I strongly suspect that if they had been thought of earlier then the dragon aspects would have been associated with them rather than the scheme they did get.
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  #106  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:34 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Gelbin "King of Gnomes" Mekkatorque has supposedly been the elected High Tinker for over 30 years, during numerous wars, invasions, and liberations, experiencing key policy changes in diplomacy and administration... all without ever having to experience a single re-election event. And without showing us the initial election, if there ever was one. In comparison, consider how many kings and other autocrats have lived and died during that time.

Such unquestioned longevity deserves a little explanation at the very least, but we know virtually nothing about how Gnomish government and succession even works. This is lazy writing.

EDIT: For comparison: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ers_since_1900
He's ruled longer than Joseph Stalin or John Paul II. He'd probably need about 5-10 more years to pass Kim Il-sung or Fidel Castro, depending on when he was actually elected. It's possible he's beaten them already.
He indefinitely suspends elections until Gnomeregan has been reclaimed fully. Then again, the radiation is gonna take a very long time to dissipate ensuring him a very long term
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  #107  
Old 04-04-2019, 07:56 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Can we get this discussion started back up again? After all the absurdities of the Chronicles lore, I'd like to go back to something smaller and simpler.
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  #108  
Old 04-04-2019, 11:03 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Sure.

TBH I think we've shown RoC's core doesn't really need too many of the "higher powers." The Legion can just be smaller, the Scourge the threat faced at Hyjal, the Orcs reject their past ways without being magically corrupted, etc. One could say that it was still grounded in past games' style and didn't reach the level WoW did.

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  #109  
Old 04-04-2019, 11:34 AM
BattleNub BattleNub is offline

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WC3 at least set a precedent for making the stories even bigger, adding giant demon lords who can topple a city like it's a sand-castle. Issue WoW had was continually try to escalate from there, instead of letting things simmer for a bit before we get back to ancient evils being unleashed that threaten the entire planet.

Dragons and fire-lords enslaving orcs/dwarves felt ok, but Old Gods re-emerging felt like too much too soon after Hyjal. Then of course things just get crazier from there, revisiting the Legion invasion story way too quickly, bringing back Arthas just 2 years after his needed hibernation.

In terms of fantasy world scales, that just feels too small. These events needed to be stretched out over decades, if not centuries. All of the required characters for the stories were already immortal or long-lived. In the mean time they could have crafted completely new stories that were smaller in scale, then more gradually work us back up to Legion-level threats.

Looking at in Chronicle it's just a big mess. All the major events early on were spread out over epochs. Then we get the mortal race era and it's spread out by millennia. Then we get to the Dark Portal and things are spread out several years, sometimes a decade. Then we reach Warcraft 3 and several major events are packed into a year, followed by a new set of major events packed into the next one.

Imagine if Earth's history was "Well, a few things happened before World War 1, but we only know about like 4 of the big ones."
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  #110  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I usually don’t do this (for a number of reasons, including spoiling and not wanting to plague canon/official lore discussions with fanfiction matter), but as this is a purely hypothetical “what if” discussion, here’s a number of principal concepts from my own fanfiction (remake) that can (but absolutely do not have to be) utilized when thinking about a Warcraft II-esque Third War.

- D(a)emons are extremely power hungry and chaotic beings. They are backstabbing and fighting each other incessantly and can be united only through a great show of force, power, fear. Moreover, most of them are individually not that powerful, hardly surpassing even ordinary mortal sorcerers or warriors. Some species/races simply lack the potential to grow beyond that in any notable level, for others, only a few manage to survive long enough to deaemonlord levels, even if their potential is nearly unlimited in theory. There are exceptions to some of these rules, such as with the Nathrezim who have eliminated infighting through spiritual pacts etc, but they are quite rare.

- Sometimes, a powerful daemonic warlord manages to form a personal army powerful enough to take on entire nations, but it’s not common. Armies capable of taking on entire worlds are nearly non-existent.

- Sargeras’ origins are unknown. There are some accounts found in daemonic and divine lore, but they give a rather strange and often contradicting picture. Nonetheless, what’s known is that through power and fear, he had managed to forge a daemonic army of gargantuan proportions, attacking countless worlds. Until his arrival to Azeroth’s world, where he and most of his lieutenants were lost and his army fell apart. A few form a cult devoted to him, but that is about it.

- The origin of the Guardians traces back to this conflict. They had protected the world from otherworldly threats until Medivh.

- Archimonde is another deamonlord who has over millennia amassed enough power to build himself an army capable of conquering entire nations. He is extremely ambitious, seeking to surpass even Sargeras in power and authority. Some of his lackeys did serve under Sargeras, most did not.

- While he has nothing to do with Medivh, the orcs and the Horde’s invasion, and so on, he learns of their consequences (namely the Order of Tirisfal being a thing of the past and the world being in a state of turmoil) and decides it’s a perfect time to invade the world. His motives for doing so have everything to do with the aforementioned ambitions; he believes that by draining its innate energies, he’d surpass even Sargeras in power, but more importantly, conquering a world he could not have would bring him immense authority.

-Orcish shamanism is as much necromantic and otherworldly as elementalist and worldly. Necromantic as in revering death, communicating with and worshipping the dead, channeling their energies, otherworldly as in astral walking, astrology, and so on. The Shadowmoon especially focused on these aspects.

-Draenor was a slowly dying world.

-There was no corruption by the d(a)emons. There was a time before the warlocks (as mentioned in Warcraft II), and the warlocks had a profound effect on orcish society, but it had nothing to do with some d(a)emonic plot to enslave the orcs.

- The Horde is purely an orcish construct.

- The Scourge, its initial creation, the idea and vision behind it, has in the beginning nothing to do with daemons or Archimonde’s invasion, it’s of Ner’zhul’s mind and is rooted in building upon the Shadowmoon practices and knowledge.

- As it’s build upon Ner’zhul’s vision, the Scourge has much more different and stable structure. It’s religious component is much more genuine, and its goal is actually converting cultures to the worship of Ner’zhul and bringing them under his domain. It’s a new, aggressive, revolutionary religion.

- The elves are not immortal, only long lived, their lives comparable with those of the Guardians (alluded to in Warcraft II). But usually, they do not even live that long, willingly abandoning their lives after several centuries.

- The elves of Quel’thalas retain their heavily lunar, shadowy, and druidic themes.

- There is only one elf race/species. All the different elf polities are of this race, they differ in culture. Quel’thalas, Hyjal, other polities (yes, there are other) are all (fringe) remnants of the ancient Kaldorei empire, destroyed during Sargeras’ invasion. As these remnants were composed of different groups with different goals, philosophical beliefs, they were different even at the begging, and these differences have only deepened over the generations (this is where it’s important to not have the elves immortal and actually have generations).

- The ancient elves had an entire pantheon of natural and astral gods. The first elves of Hyjal were more radical members of the (warrior) Cult of Elune and various druid orders, hence their more militant and spiritually indomitable nature. The first elves of Quel’thalas also had many nobles and civilians among their ranks, and the spiritual components were much more moderate. Other elven entities wary.

- The trolls are native to the East, it’s their original homeland. They, especially the trolls of Lordaeron, are much more sympathetic, and much of their land has been taken by the humans, elves, and dwarves through conquest and colonization. Just as with the elves, they are one race/species just with different clusters of characteristics.

- Quel’thalas, Lordaeron, Azeroth, Khaz Modan are each a continent, and Kalimdor is roughly the size of Azeroth alone. Ancient Kalimdor was much larger, but still not a supercontinent, and the East was not part of it (though it was connected to it through a land bridge at times). This is roughly based on the geography of Warcraft III Alpha.

- The Alliance falls apart rather soon after the Second War (as described in the Beyond the Dark Portal expansion already). There’s much political intrigue and infighting.

- Before the First War, Azeroth was the mightiest of human nations, a religious center on par with Lordaeron, and a center of higher spiritual learning (particularly thanks to Northshire). One of the reasons for this was the close cooperation between the Clergy and the Royal Conjurers, something unprecedent in the north.

- The paladins are specifically born of a fusion between, the pious, often even fanatical knights of Lordaeron and the Clerics of Northshire with their teachings.
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  #111  
Old 04-11-2019, 07:45 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Agreed. The lore has an absurd scaling problem. Those are some very nice fanfic ideas.

Have you guys read the notes on the alpha storyline for WC3? Apparently it was going to feature a handful of similar ideas before going all crazy epic. Like an Alliance civil war and such.https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft_I...uide#Storyline

What kind of timeline are we using here? The "Guardians of Azeroth" mod for Crusader Kings II uses the "King's Calendar" alluded to in WC1 lore, but the years seem to be... really off.

(Speaking of which, the name of the calendar itself appears to be fans' conjecture, as I cannot find that name in the WC1 or WC2 manuals. It makes sense from a real world perspective as, prior to the global adoption of the Anno Domini system, all calendars used the reign of the local monarch. The King's Calendar appears to be similar to Anno Domini, suggesting it measures the eternal reign of some messianic figure. To add more similarity, in WC1 the Church worshiped a deity called God, not the sanitized "holy light" in later games.)

Anyway, the mod seems to have combined the WC2 claim that the First War started in 583 KC with the 2016 Visual Guide timeline's claim that the Third War occurred 20 years after that (i.e. in 603 KC). This contradicts the WC2 timeline because the WC2 manual outright states that the Dark Portal was reopened in 606 KC. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Timeline

The WC1 manual was the only source to use year dates consistently. The WC2 manuals provide no concrete dates except 583 as the opening of the Dark Portal and 606 as the invasion of Draenor. The WC2 timeline couldn't keep itself straight between expansions either. The Bleeding Hollow clan supposedly lived in Azeroth for "over thirty years" by the time the Dark Portal was reopened. If Medivh opened it in 583 KC, then it couldn't have reopened earlier than 613 KC.

After WC2, the writers ceased using the King's Calendar and starting using the First War as the start of the chronology. Further difficulties are introduced since writers can't agree whether to start from Year 0 or Year 1. The timelines of the three wars have been consistently shortened in every subsequent source.

I attempted to reconcile timelines, but this ultimately broke down by the Second War period since the writers stopped using a consistent timeline by then. Of Blood and Honor isn't consistent with WC3 at all, since it presumes the Alliance and Knights of the Silver Hand existed for thirty years by then and has them existing a further fifteen years after that.

I'll just try simplifying the timeline under the assumption that the Third War starts "a generation" after the start of the First War (as stated by a WC3 trailer; the exact length of a generation is variable, as the scientific estimates vary from 25-35 years: https://isogg.org/wiki/How_long_is_a...ides_an_answer), when characters like Thrall and Arthas (and possibly Taelan Fordring) are adults.
  • KC 583: Dark Portal opens. First War starts. (WC1, WC2 Manual)
  • KC 59X: Second War. (Wild guess because nothing else fits. In WC1 manual this was the First War.)
  • KC 606: Invasion of Draenor. (WC2X Manual)
  • KC 617: Third War. A "generation" after orcs appeared. (WC3 Trailer)

I just discovered another attempt at a timeline. https://forums.scrollsoflore.com/sho...d.php?t=216994 Looks pretty deep. Way more effort than Blizzard ever gave. I thought the explanation of the calendar's was hilarious! The Calendar Novum is an in-universe mockery of Blizzard's constantly shrinking timeline.
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  #112  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:10 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I am actually using a lot of Warcraft III Alpha material in my fanfic remake (which you linked there, by the way). I've also made many posts about early Warcraft III here;

https://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums...=217244&page=4

About that timeline you are linking, that's also from my work. I've made some changes to it since, but it still holds mostly;

583 - The year of the First Portal

593 - The year of the Final Portal, Aegwynn confronts Medivh

594 - 600 - The First War and the invasion of Khaz Modan (Aegwynn writes her manual entry here, forty-two winters after her original arrival to Azeroth).

600 - 606 - The six year long interrim

606 - 616 - The Second War

616 - 618 - The Invasion of Draenor

631 - The Third War begins (nearly thirteen years after Draenor and nearly fifteen years after the Second War).

I explained the reasoning behind making 616 the end of the Second War here, in the timeline thread;

https://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums...&postcount=450

Last edited by Marthen; 04-11-2019 at 11:15 AM..
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  #113  
Old 04-11-2019, 11:11 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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I am actually using a lot of Warcraft III Alpha material in my fanfic remake (which you linked there, by the way). I've also made many posts about early Warcraft III here;

https://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums...=217244&page=4

About that timeline you are linking, that's also from my work. I've made some changes to it since, but it still holds mostly;

583 - The year of the First Portal

593 - The year of the Final Portal, Aegwynn confronts Medivh

594 - 600 - The First War and the invasion of Khaz Modan (Aegwynn writes her manual entry here, forty-two winters after her original arrival to Azeroth).

600 - 600 - The six year long interrim

606 - 616 - The Second War

616 - 618 - The Invasion of Draenor

631 - The Third War begins (nearly thirteen years after Draenor and nearly fifteen years after the Second War).

I explained the reasoning behind making 616 the end of the Second War here, in the timeline thread;

https://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums...&postcount=450
I came to similar results when I tried to calculate the timeline based on elapsed years.

I would be really interested in seeing both your historian's perspective of canon and your proposed retrocraft 3 story. Although at this point the canon is so absurd that your time would probably be better spent merging the former into the latter.

Probably the worst aspect of canon is the modern Alliance/Horde conflict. There's no logical reason for there to be only these two playable factions, nor to have the racial makeup that they do. The distinction seems to be based entirely on an (out of universe) conceit that the Horde is composed of ugly races, corruptions and dark mirrors of the Alliance races.

Back in WC2, the trolls and goblins joining the Horde made sense because they were being oppressed by the humans and other pretty races, so the Horde offered them better futures in exchange for military service. That's how Cortez got allies to destroy the Aztecs.

I'd love to see a Crusader Kings II Warcraft mod based on your fanfiction one day. Seems like it would be a better fit considering the emphasis on politics.
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  #114  
Old 04-11-2019, 12:43 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I came to similar results when I tried to calculate the timeline based on elapsed years.
You are not the first one. There are not that many possibilities on how to interpret it as a whole and do not lose sensibility.

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I would be really interested in seeing both your historian's perspective of canon and your proposed retrocraft 3 story. Although at this point the canon is so absurd that your time would probably be better spent merging the former into the latter.
Actually, my project originally had started as that, but in the end, I found the whole effort redundant and severed all the ties with canon beyond inspiration. Now, it's a complete remake (not just the Third War, but the whole of the setting, from an expanded history to a refined geography).

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I'd love to see a Crusader Kings II Warcraft mod based on your fanfiction one day. Seems like it would be a better fit considering the emphasis on politics.
Funnily enough, I do intend (but who the hell knows if I ever manage it) on creating a mod for my rework with Imperator: Rome (a new game from the creators of Crusader Kings II). A number of reasons for choosing it over Crusader Kings, from naval combat, which I see as extremely important in a Warcraft II-esque setting, to more detailed non-dynastic politics and better modding tools.
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  #115  
Old 04-11-2019, 02:14 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Probably the worst aspect of canon is the modern Alliance/Horde conflict. There's no logical reason for there to be only these two playable factions, nor to have the racial makeup that they do. The distinction seems to be based entirely on an (out of universe) conceit that the Horde is composed of ugly races, corruptions and dark mirrors of the Alliance races.

Back in WC2, the trolls and goblins joining the Horde made sense because they were being oppressed by the humans and other pretty races, so the Horde offered them better futures in exchange for military service. That's how Cortez got allies to destroy the Aztecs.
The Alliance and Horde were from the start meant to be civilization vs savagery. WC3 took the Horde into an antihero direction but kept the theme. WoW messed that up since Alliance got the forest elf amazons with werewolves and the Horde got Lordaeron's raised dead with Blood Elves.

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  #116  
Old 04-16-2019, 10:40 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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The Alliance and Horde were from the start meant to be civilization vs savagery. WC3 took the Horde into an antihero direction but kept the theme. WoW messed that up since Alliance got the forest elf amazons with werewolves and the Horde got Lordaeron's raised dead with Blood Elves.
That's an extremely racist idea. The Horde is a civilization by any stretch. In fact, it's pretty much the fantasy equivalent of colonialist Europe.

Although the popular idea now is that orcs represent the Other (i.e. non-white people), in Tolkien's original works they actually represented the worst aspects of industrialized colonialist Europe. That the peoples of Middle Earth's equivalents of Africa and Asia were allied with Sauron has more to do with them being victims of colonialism than Tolkien being a racist (e.g. LotR explicitly states at one point that these people were deceived and enslaved).

Warcraft is basically LotR except that Mordor is an alien planet.

I could go on a screed about how Warcraft is a caricatured reverse colonialism fantasy with dark-skinned peoples (orcs, goblins, trolls) oppressing fair-skinned peoples (humans, elves, dwarves), but I'm sure we're all adults here.

It should be obvious to all of us that nobody in this setting, or at least the retrocraft re-imagining, has the moral high ground. The humans, elves and dwarves were clearly oppressing the goblins, trolls, etc. That explains why they were so quick to join the Horde: the orcs offered them revenge and power, like how Cortez defeated the Aztecs by allying with their enemies.

Is it wrong for the orcs to invade and conquer Azeroth? Yes, but so did the Europeans, Mongols, Romans, etc.
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  #117  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:19 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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That's an extremely racist idea. The Horde is a civilization by any stretch. In fact, it's pretty much the fantasy equivalent of colonialist Europe.
I disagree. I think even a look at armor and architecture from the games shows that the Alliance/humans generally represented civilization while the Horde/orcs generally represented savagery, barbarians, and nature.

It was pointed out to me that even Alliance buildings were usually squared and precise, made with stone, while Horde versions were circular and incorporated wood, bone, and tree stumps.

Civilization vs. barbarism. The haves vs. the have-nots. City vs. nature.
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  #118  
Old 04-16-2019, 01:31 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Agreed with Grackle. I'd also point out that the orcs of the first wars are much, much more in line with migratory/semi-migratory tribal warrior cultures (the Norsemen, the Saxons, the Germanic tribes) rather than with colonial Europe. Draenor is described as dying in Warcraft II, they are migrating, not just setting up colonies.

If there is anything resembling (very early) colonial Europe, it's human nations like Azeroth (setting up colonies down the south), Kul Tiras (trade stations and all), perhaps Gilneas.
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  #119  
Old 04-17-2019, 03:30 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Those are all still civilizations. The idea that nomads, barbarians, and anybody who dresses like native americans weren’t civilizations is literally racist propaganda used to justify dehumanizing and exterminating them. The word “barbarian” started as a slur for foreign speakers, because the Romans though everyone else spoke “bar bar bar.”

In anthropology these kinds of wrong stereotypes are known as the noble savage and ignoble savage.

The Horde meets all the criteria for being a confederation and an empire. It unites distinct ethnic tribes and expands through conquest. They practice animal husbandry, construction, writing...

Saying they’re anti-civilization is just absurd. If you applied the same logic to human beings then that would be obviously racist.
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  #120  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Gelbin "King of Gnomes" Mekkatorque has supposedly been the elected High Tinker for over 30 years, during numerous wars, invasions, and liberations, experiencing key policy changes in diplomacy and administration... all without ever having to experience a single re-election event. And without showing us the initial election, if there ever was one. In comparison, consider how many kings and other autocrats have lived and died during that time.

Such unquestioned longevity deserves a little explanation at the very least, but we know virtually nothing about how Gnomish government and succession even works. This is lazy writing.
The Doges of the Venetian Republic were elected but served for life, effectively acting as elected kings or, rather, dukes.
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  #121  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:43 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
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Those are all still civilizations. The idea that nomads, barbarians, and anybody who dresses like native americans weren’t civilizations is literally racist propaganda used to justify dehumanizing and exterminating them. The word “barbarian” started as a slur for foreign speakers, because the Romans though everyone else spoke “bar bar bar.”

In anthropology these kinds of wrong stereotypes are known as the noble savage and ignoble savage.

The Horde meets all the criteria for being a confederation and an empire. It unites distinct ethnic tribes and expands through conquest. They practice animal husbandry, construction, writing...

Saying they’re anti-civilization is just absurd. If you applied the same logic to human beings then that would be obviously racist.
Alright, I'll fall back a little. It's a fair point that all of those groups are civilizations per definition with distinct cultures, governments, belief systems, and often technologies that surpassed their more stationary peers. It's true that they didn't just conquer but also settled and lived.

But if the term I'm looking for isn't "uncivilized" or "barbarian", then it's SOMETHING. There is something that binds the conquering, migratory, tribal, pragmatic groups. And I wave away the racism factor because it also includes "whites" such as Vikings, Celts, Germans, and a slew of others if I get to include Eastern Europeans as "white".

That's what I mean. The Horde thematically has more in common with the white "barbarians" who conquered the Western Roman Empire and became masters of Europe, than with their European descendants who conquered and created empires across the world in later eras.

EDIT: On the race note, specifically? Orcish bloodlust and troll berserking have a much closer feel to Viking berserkers, Germanic furor teutonicus, or woad-painted Scottish rage than to the Mongols, subsaharan Africans, or anyone on the American continents.

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The Doges of the Venetian Republic were elected but served for life, effectively acting as elected kings or, rather, dukes.
Excellent insight! I do want Blizzard to tell me something this. Though actually, I think a set of standardized tests would be more fun than elections...

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 04-17-2019 at 07:01 AM..
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  #122  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:58 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think that conceptualization would be helpful in this case. It seems BoxCrayonTales is speaking about civilization vs. non-civilization in the context of pure cultural development, whereas we are talking more about urbanism vs. ruralism without the possible negative connotations for either of those.

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EDIT:

Hmm, when I was listing the concepts above, I forgot several paticular;

- Quel'thalas is destroyed in the Second War, and the surviving elves remain part of the Alliance (that is something that had been part of lore well until Warcraft III's Beta, only when they cut the Ranger hero/the Dragonhawk unit from the Alliance and started developing the undead campaign did they change it).

- Azerothien refugees should be rather influential culturally and philosophically in the north. Not just through the aforementioned union of Azeroth's clerics and Lordaeron's knights in the Silver Hand, but also due to the influence the few surviving Conjurers would have on the Kirin Tor and their know-how, closer cooperation between the Church and the mages, and so on.

- A more general principle, but cooperation should lead to new perspectives, and new perspectives to new advancements. The ballista is a product of human design and elven crafstmanship. The Dragonhawk Riders are be a product of Elven and Wildhammer friendship. And so on.

- Another general principle, but the Alliance should not be about powerful royal bloodlines and hero-politicans. It should be about "heroes who arise to challenge fate while the politicians bicker". Danath isn't Thoras' direct relative, just an ordinary mercenary captain who earned himself a name during the Second War, becoming a great hero of Stromgarde (though his Trollbane name can be kept with Thoras adopting him into the family after this, a honorary imperial adoption).
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  #123  
Old 04-18-2019, 04:57 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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I think it makes more sense to detail the governments, moralities and general cultures of the Alliance and Horde rather than make blanket statements and comparisons that are nonsensical from an anthropological and historical perspective.

BTW, racism isn't limited to white people oppressing non-white people. Past and present, people of the same skin tone (race isn't a valid scientific concept) have been racist against one another. The recent genocides in the Balkans and Rwanda, the Irish's Troubles, the Nazis' racial hierarchy of white people, the Rape of Nanking... the list goes on.
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  #124  
Old 04-18-2019, 05:55 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I think it makes more sense to detail the governments, moralities and general cultures of the Alliance and Horde rather than make blanket statements and comparisons that are nonsensical from an anthropological and historical perspective.
Fair enough. But I think we'd find that, since the Alliance and Horde peoples are fictional groups created in the '90s for a fantasy universe, their governments/moralities/cultures are very often a product of those very stereotypes you are warning against.

It assuredly is nonsensical to make blanket generalizations about actual cultures. But this fictional world was crafted by authors who were undoubtedly influenced by those stereotypes, generalizations, etc.

It'd be stupid of me to say that a Comanche only loved to ride horses and raid settlements. But if I say something similar about an orc from the Burning Blade Clan, it's a possibility worth considering. (Probably without the horses.)
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:14 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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I was reading the Second War thread and took special notice of the analysis of retcons between WC1 and WC2. https://forums.scrollsoflore.com/sho...65&postcount=2

The distinctions between warrior, warlock, necrolyte and shaman are one example. Shamans were only introduced in WC2 and were only vaguely explained. WC2 retconned necrolytes from a long tradition to an offshoot of the warlocks under Gul'dan. However, even this is contradicted by Adventures when Thrall learns some necromancy as part of the shaman tradition. The seeds of WC3's corrupt orcs are sown here, but the history of the orcs seems a lot more convoluted (in a positive way) compared to the unnaturally neat history presented in WC3 and beyond. I get the impression from comparing these older sources that the distinction between warlocks, necrolytes and shamans isn't neat and tidy like in later sources. All three of them practiced some form of necromancy.

The retconned relationship between Medivh and the orcs was a neat fact that I wasn't originally aware of. In WC1 there wasn't actually a connection between Medivh and the orcs besides the fact that he was the one who opened the rift they later exploited. He was content to hide in his tower while the orcs and humans fought to the death. I'm genuinely curious as to how the story could've played out if Medivh wasn't in league with the orcs (at least from the start). The involvement of demons is tangential at this point, since the concept of the Burning Legion hadn't formed yet and demons were mere plot devices.

The timeline is another interesting bit of lore. WC1 and WC2 are the last time that Blizzard ever maintained a calendar, much less a consistent timeline. The official timeline has been consistently shortened to absurd degrees. Yet the WC1 calendar has some vague bits, enough that one could conceivably be led to believe that WC1 actually starts in 598 (or that Draenor years are 2/3 the length of Azeroth years). The idea of presenting WC as a generational conflict is pretty interesting, at least compared to the absurdly short timeline in the modern franchise.

One oddity here I will point out is the background of Garona. Although one could easily assume she was born and grew during the First War, her description of Draenor in her memoir suggests she was born or at least raised there. Furthermore, her insight into human culture definitely indicates she was raised among humans for much of her life. The Last Guardian novel explicitly states she was born on Draenor, if that counts. The oddity, which is even mentioned in the novel, is that this implies there were humans or a human-like race living on Draenor. These could very well have been the same as the Draenei race briefly mentioned in WC2 manual (at this point the Draenei were only a line there), or they could have been a different race. In any case, both Garona and Medivh state (or speculate) that these Draenor humans were close enough to Azeroth humans for Garona to have insight into human culture and psychology by learning from them. However, this is contradicted when Garona's own account states that Azeroth was the first time that orcs had encountered humans, suggesting she was born there and learned of Draenor from her tutors.

Since Garona was writing her account during Blackhand's rise ~15 years after the first assault on Stormwind, we know she was an adult at that time. What we don't know is how quickly she matured, nor the rate at which pure-blooded orcs mature. (In fact, the statement that the orcs rose from the mire is vaguely worded to the point that you can interpret it as suggesting they reproduce like plants or that their creation myth involves the "dark gods" mentioned elsewhere creating them from the mire equally well.) Without a statement of her exact age, we can't make any further assumptions about her heritage. It could go either way, and each would have its own ramifications.

In fact, the nature of Draenor itself wasn't really clear at this early stage in the development of the lore. Aegwyn seemingly described it as always being a dark evil world inhabited by orcs and other vile creatures. What little we are told about the orcs' religion, it being the worship of dark gods (distinct from demons) who consider "devouring" a world the highest honor, suggests something pretty dark. The statement about devouring a world itself implies that world devouring is something that happened repeatedly in the mythology of the orcs. One could speculate that their religion, if true rather than fictional, was passed along by a successive series of world conquerors with the orcs either being the latest converts or the descendants of the conquerors. The statements elsewhere about their magic causing Azeroth to sicken and resemble Draenor suggests a possible planet looter lifestyle. Whether this is true or not, it definitely seemed to serve as the basis for the Burning Legion's devouring of worlds and the undead's blight (which has nearly identical effects).

But I digress. Exploring the culture of supposedly "evil" races fascinates me.
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