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Old 10-22-2011, 01:49 AM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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Default Announced class changes and talents II: electric Boogaloo.

Okay, so I figured I would start a thread to discuss and share opinions on the new class and talent changes. I don't think that needs much greater specificity, so I suppose I'll get right into my take thus far:

I like the new take on talents. It is, in theory, a way to finally kill the cookie-cutter spec. Because of the WoW community's habit of theorycrafting everything down to the nucleic level I don't doubt some suggested specs will arise, but I do think they will be far less restrictive. I like that.

I think the changes to warlocks sound cool, and I think the modifications to ranged slots makes sense. That being said, I don't main a hunter, warrior, or rogue, so I don't really have much skin in that particular game.

So, getting to the class I do main... paladins. As anyone who's read any ten posts I've made in a row has probably figured out, I tend to complain about my class. It's sort of a love/hate relationship, where I love it and it hates me.

So the good: Paladins finally get a snare, a reliable gap closer, and a use for consecration.

The bad: Paladins have to choose between the only three forms of cc they have (which means ret will actually lose one), we lose pursuit of justice's passive movement buff, and I'm rather underwhelmed by our final tier. It basically amounts to letting us cast the same, kinda boring spells we have, but more often. Pally abilities tend not to be terribly flashy, and our finishers are no exception, they basically amount to numbers. Our level 90 talents are just giving us the chance to use them more, so lots of numbers going on the screen really fast, but not much else. In general, I think the proposed tree solves a few problems pallies have, create some new ones, and are generally unexciting compared to those of, say, druids and DKs.

So, with my opinions and thoughts down and out of the way, what does everyone else think of the news we got?
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:58 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline
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I'm welcoming the change, I was wary at first to hear about their talent revamp because I'm quite comfortable with the current model. But when I found out just how extensive their revamp was, and the grounds for doing it, I was definitely interested.

I think this system is a lot more fun and interesting than the previous system, it seems more versatile and engaging, and I like the idea that you can change it much more freely and easily between fights like glyphs. I think I like the talent trees right now because I like my rotation and some of the talents do cool and fun things, but the idea behind talents isn't really something I think about too much. I kind of just pick my talents and go, this makes it much more of a gameplay mechanic, you know?

I'm curious to hear how they give you talents like "Blood and Thunder" or procs and other such stuff, likely wrapped in with picking your spec at level 10. Definitely looking forward to more information and future iterations on this change.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:22 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Speaking about warriors since it's the class i play the most (though that may - may - change if the martial arts melee spec of the Monk catches my interest) i am somewhat pleased with the new system.
I get to chose between rather similar talents (though to be honest, Shockwave in the final tier is... ah.... a bit lacking compared to the other two), a lot of who seem to be focused on giving more rage. Since i've seen no word on reworking the rage-gain through attacks, that's a rather good thing. What i AM concerned about is... well, we still don't know what attacks every warrior gets and what every specc gets in addition to the talent trees (at least i haven't seen them announced yet). So... the first tier focuses on charging people. Do we still have Heroic Leap?
Also i'm totally pissed about losing my ranged-weapon slot. I have waited for years for a good looking rifle like the one gilneas-style, and now they just take it away from me. I call Bullshit. And it's totally screw up Roleplayers to take away the ability to draw a wide variety of weapons, like Hunters losing their melee weapons. I get that Roleplayers are shat upon by Blizzard, but you'd expect at least Metzen (who not only seems to really love his creation, even though he has done some... questionable stuff with it) to pull his weight in this.

Other than that i have seen too little to really say anything else than that, even though i rather like the general idea of the new talent tree system, i don't think ANOTHER overhaul of the talentsystem is necessary or even a good thing. Just pick one variation and stay the fuck with it. Also: while it will lead to more diveristy among the same classes and speccs, i can't help but feel that we're losing out big time on personal choice overall. With only one talent per tier being available, it's even more important to get a cooky cutter-specc from places like EJs, completely undermining the whole idea of the new system. It'd be nice if that was some way to improve your character beyond the talent tree. Path of the Titans 2.0 or something like that...
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:30 AM
Chrise Chrise is offline

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Some of the talents seem really lackluster for some classes, and then totally overpowered with some. Remorseless Winter? AoE Grip? Shit will be nerfed so hard
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:41 AM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

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I'm not gonna judge it yet. They said it's still in development, and I have no doubt it'll change by the time of release.

I'm still questioning how effective the system will be. Sure, it's supposed to ad versatility and customization, but I have little doubt there will still be optimal talents for each spec. As long as websites like Elitist Jerks are around, there'll always be the theorycrafters and number crunchers who'll provide the most effective builds.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:50 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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If it works, it'll be cool, if it doesn't it will suck.



Now that I've made my 'state the obvious' contribution...

Some of the warlock stuff seems cool. I like the improved summonings and stuff. I don't think Metamorphosis really fits Demonology. But seeing as I tend to be Afflicition my resource isn't going to be changing.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:53 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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At least we now know why they put effort into designing female demons.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:13 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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I don't like the new talent system at all.

It's funny how they claim they will present us with hard choices when, in fact, there's no choice at all. There are 3 talents in each tier and you can choose only one and you can pretty much tell at a first glimpse which talent is for which spec. So RandomEnhanShaman2's build won't be much different than mine and at the end of the day everyone will end up with a cookie cutter build as it is now. Only this time they're completely removing the different specs and merging them into one single weird tree. So I don't see how this new system is more versatile or gives more freedom when it comes down to choices in any way.

Furthermore, why the Hell try to fix something that's already working fine and rework it into something completely different. I personally haven't seen anyone complaining about the current talent system. This comes off as a "We don't know exactly what to do with the talents so we'll try something new each expansion and very possibly mess up in the process" on Blizzard's part.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:16 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Honestly, the trees we have right now would be great if you didn't have to put 30 points into it before branching into other ones. And yes, it's going to be extremely easy to spot the best talent. There will be no choices if you want to min/max. That being said i'm looking forward to my Furys getting Shockwave even though it's crap compared to Avatar.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:22 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I like how they're making the talents more free choice really. Oh, and Warriors are getting Mountain King abilities.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:50 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I like it conceptually... but it just seems to be removing an element of choice even further.

I'm not a HUGE fan of the system we have now, and I'm now sure how a lot of the old talents will be implemented. (I really hope my Unholy DK doesn't lose Magic Suppression... >=( ) But we'll see how things turn out.

I like the IDEA anyway. And it definitely provides a lot more choice.
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:00 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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I like how they're making the talents more free choice really. Oh, and Warriors are getting Mountain King abilities.
Free choice? You obviously haven't looked at the shaman talents, my friend.

I kinda wonder if they were even following a single theme or concept when they were designing the new trees. Seems to me they just printed all the current talents of each tree on one big sheet of paper, closed their eyes and just went "OK, the first 3 random talents that I put my finger on go into the first tier, the next 3 random talents that I point go to the second tier..." "But we also need to make new talents or people will complain." "No problem, we'll make up some weird ass PvP talents as we go and throw them into the mix to make the trees even more random, then we'll pretend we're giving players more freedom to choose when, in fact, everyone will end up with the same cookie cutter build anyway due to how obvious each tier is for each spec." Yeah, yeah, I know, it's an early preview and everything is subject to change and all that, but that's just the feeling I got when looking at the new system.

And you guys know how there's always one new feature of each expansion that doesn't make it into the game? Yeah, I hope it's this one. Seriously, it's the single new feature that I already hate with a passion. Everything else, I approve of.
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:05 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline
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Free choice? You obviously haven't looked at the shaman talents, my friend.
Fret not, things can and will change
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:12 AM
Stackattack Stackattack is offline

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i actually like the new system. each tree has, if not tree, then atleast two abilities that look good on paper. well, that's for rogues and dks atleast
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:13 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Fret not, things can and will change
Hopefully. I'm happy with how enhancement currently works, totem/mechanic/talent-wise and I don't see the need for a change but if they go with what they have in mind about changing the current playstyle, then...

Pandaren Monk, here I come!
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:33 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Not sure about Shaman, but I think the Druid and Death Knight Talents work pretty well for all of the specs. I saw one that *I* liked, but it was still a choice, and I didn't feel (especially for my DK) that one was the OBVIOUS choice for my spec.

As was said, there were always at least 2 I deliberated on.
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:40 AM
Jiwat Jiwat is offline

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For every time you try and stop it, the customers will just make a better cookie cutter. The community values throughput over everything, and so you'll just take their suggestion and then deviate at certain points for quality of life enhancements you'd prefer over a small amount of throughput.
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:48 AM
oblivion oblivion is offline

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i like the new talent system. of course some tiers the choice is very obvious. other tiers are great.

what i dislike is the mage talent tree. compared to other classes its VERY boring, especially the last tier. but double sheep??? hell yes xD

there maybe still cookie cutter specs but there still a much varied and viable choices in the new talent system then there is now. so yeah i will take this one over the present system.

also this new talent system allows my frost mage to have slow or my arcan mage to have BW. see this new talent system now specs to dip into the other side.

Last edited by oblivion; 10-22-2011 at 04:55 AM..
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Old 10-22-2011, 05:34 AM
Grunn Grunn is offline

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I really like the idea.

That said, in its current iteration it generally works great for the Pure classes, but falls flat for hybrids, this might just be a case of more work on other classes than others (e.g. paladin dk and warrior trees are fairly good at giving you real but similar choices, whereas with druid and shaman the talents tend to be much more different in their effects and it becomes easier to work out which one is "best" for a particular specilisation)

While when you are designing a talent tree in this system for a class with fewer roles you know that each spec is going to approach each talent choice with pretty much the same criteria, and it becomes much easier to make them equal value.

I get the feeling looking through the Druid talent tree in particular though, that theres generally a choice of 2 talents most of the time, rather than 3, but all 3 are useful, just different roles will evaluate the same talents using different criteria.

on to classes I actually play regually:

Druid: some of the talents are pretty no brainer, feline swiftness is the only choice for feral in movement, displacer beast (otherwise known as feralvanish) might see some use in arena specs.
Bear hug is gona be so much fun ("healer on 40% hp, hugging him to death now!")
heart of the wild is just awesome, a Hybrid class that can finally swap roles (briefly) in combat, I can imagine the QQ already.
disentanglement is going to be a total no brainer for feral pvp, and is basicly pre4.0 nerf feral for the low low price of one talent point.
master shapeshifter made me laugh out loud, this is almost as bad as vanilla hurricane or lacerate, just really unspeakably bad.

As a frostmage (I play pve frost, deal with it) in PVE theres generally always a good choice to make, and I love it, stuff like cone of cold vs ring of frost and arcane flows/scorch/presence of mind are actually fairly interesting and subjective choices (until somone does the math anyways)

One thing I do note though is this moves class identity to be more unified if you are drawing on a single talent pool, than is the case in Cata.
Rather than being an arcane mage who only uses arcane spells, theres going to be more mages showing off utility spells from other talent specs.

This does mean they are going to have to redesign alot of spec passives and masteries if they want these choices to be fairly equal for all specs.
e.g. have fire mages mastery increase the specific spells only a fire mage gets rather than just "fire damage"
or change survival hunters mastery to only apply to serpent sting, explosive shot and traps, otherwise venom arrows become a no-brainer
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:53 AM
Foppish Foppish is offline

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It's kind of too early too tell, and my first reaction was "why the hell do they need to change the talent trees more?"

But after thinking about it, I like the fact that many useful/unique abilities that were only available to a single spec/talent tree are now open to all specs (I think that is how it works). Being an Elemental Shaman typically means that I wanted to play a Shaman as a DPS caster (in addition to the fact that standing next to cliffs and Thunderstorming never ever gets old), not because I really wanted some of the specific utility buried in the Elemental tree, like an AOE root. I've often wondered how the ability of Frost Shock to root my target as Elemental would work; now I get to try out various movement impairing abilities on my Elemental Shaman for PVP to see which one I prefer, rather than being locked into a single one due to my spec.

It's a great idea to give more utility to all specs rather than confine it to a single spec, although it may create balancing issues; but all in all, more variety/choices is a good thing.
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:58 AM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Mage talents look horrid and they need to fix that.
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Don't worry. It's the mage we're talking about. Give it a few months and they get fixed. Which means op.
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:38 AM
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Where can I find detailed info on this stuff? Is it just at Blizzcon?

Could someone summarize Warlock/Paladin/Mage/Priest changes for me?
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:44 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Where can I find detailed info on this stuff? Is it just at Blizzcon?

Could someone summarize Warlock/Paladin/Mage/Priest changes for me?
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-talent-system

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...-Systems-Panel
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:45 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Blizzard really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, hates cookie cutter builds. The panels made that clear as ice sitting in a glass house, in the middle of a glass mountain.

While I like the idea, as a whole, you can still see which talents are going to be the must have for your spec. And there is waaaay too much PVP orientated stuff. I don't pvp at all, it's not my thing so why am I having to choose pvp talents?

Yes, I know that this is all subject to change:

As a feral tanking druid, I was pretty unimpressed at the level 90 talents. I'm there to tank, if I'm switching out to throw out some heals, I'm a dead bear. Switching forms so I can get off some spells? So are they going to do something with the spec so I'm not one shotted because my big 90 talent encourages me to switch forms? It just seems too pvp orientated since feral completely suck at pvp and this seems to be a way to make them relevant in arenas or something. I tank, I don't pvp. Gimme stuff that I can use as a tank that isn't gimmicky or asks me to do stuff that isn't tanking because it's "cool".

Hunters- Didn't see too much talent wise that we didn't already have. The level 90 stuff seemed very pvp orientated. Added movement for using your traps? Turning a enemy into a beast? So I can fear him?

Paladins- Didn't see anything that really stuck out. Seemed par for the course. But then again I tank, so the talents don't do anything for me.

Warock- Summon different demons? DO WANT! Honestly, this was the most exciting new talent that I saw out all of the panels and I hardly play my lock anymore. If I get MoP, then my lock will quickly become my new main.

DKs- I honestly liked them. Remorseless Winter sounds so OP, can't see that making live as is. Since I tank, I can see a lot of the talents working for me. Thumbs up.

Rogue- Liked the rogue as well. Leeching poisons and more self heal options are needed and I like it.
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