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Old 01-02-2014, 01:18 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Mana So Who Actually Realizes What's Going On?

Something that's actually been nagging at me ever since the announcement, other than the obvious bunch of brown orcs coming from a red dark portal, are there people aware that something has been changed?

The WoD side says that Velen's visions failed him in regards to the rise of the Iron Horde. Of course I'm not sure how much good they did with the Original Horde. At any rate, one of two things has happened: #1. He just saw too many possibilities, couldn't figure out which one it was, and as such did nothing; or #2. Time travel really messes with his ability to see realities course. I'd really like to think it was the second one, for Velen's sake as well as well as the narrative's. We've already had one story about him not doing anything because he didn't know what was what. If time travel is affecting his visions, is he aware that his visions are disrupted, or his he oblivious until the orcs are on his doorstep.

On that note, if Velen were to be aware, I wonder about say, Kil'Jaeden. ON that note, how does he do with Temporal Awareness. This guy is an immortal with pretty potent cosmic power. Has there been a second Kil'jaeden created, or is the same Kil'jaeden sitting in the Nether dealing with two Draenor's now?

I'm fairly any Bronze Dragon would be able to figure it out quickly, but there aren't many on Draenor. I wonder if Tick will be going with Thrall. They seemed to bond during TotA. I'm guessing the same would apply to their new timewalkers.

Then there's the orcs and their farseers, shaman's, Kilrogg, etc. These people get visons of the future too, so I wonder what happens to them when times course gets altered.

Finally, we're getting that Khadgar is coming in from Outland reporting some sort of problem. I imagine, due to Outland having once been Draenor, plus it being somewhat unstable in the cosmic sense, it's possibly that people on Outland would be more aware. My theory is that Draenor/Outland isn't necessarily in the same timestream as Azeroth, so perhaps edits in history in one realm don't necessarily affect the other? They talked about how they might make it so that we have to use the caverns of time to go back to Outland. I wondered how that could be, since once we stop the portal, they should be able to use it to go too and from outland as they used to. But if outland as we knew it no longer exists, it makes a bit more sense to need the caverns of time........ at least to me. Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey.

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Old 01-02-2014, 01:37 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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You're operating from the adorable assumption that Blizzard gives Velen more than a moment's thought when it comes to lore...
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:46 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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AU Draenor exists in a pocket dimension. Everything was materialized at a certain point in MU Draenor's timeline. So there is no KJ. The Draenei just materialized on Draenor with the memories of their MU counterparts. At least that's how I understand it.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:52 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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AU Draenor exists in a pocket dimension. Everything was materialized at a certain point in MU Draenor's timeline. So there is no KJ. The Draenei just materialized on Draenor with the memories of their MU counterparts. At least that's how I understand it.
How'd you get that idea?
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:58 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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How'd you get that idea?
Baseless speculation. And because I'd rather not have any other AU characters outside that are not natives of Draenor.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:08 AM
Ardeiute Ardeiute is offline

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This is going to be the official response to anything related this expansion

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:19 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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AU Draenor exists in a pocket dimension. Everything was materialized at a certain point in MU Draenor's timeline. So there is no KJ. The Draenei just materialized on Draenor with the memories of their MU counterparts. At least that's how I understand it.
So, single Kil'Jaeden Theory. We know there is a Kil'Jaeden involved, as Gul'Dan is terrified of the fact that he's failed to deliver the orcs to him and is summoning demons from somewhere.

Personally, I prefer there only be one Kil'Jaeden involved. Makes it more interesting in my opinion. Imagine if you will the situation from his point of view. Kil'Jaeden is probably frustrated to no end (and possibly in trouble with his boss for how badly things have gone lately, but I can't confirm that) when all of the sudden he gets a call that he never expected to get again, as the caller died a long time ago. What kind of plots does he start to come up with I wonder? Or would he look at the orcs and think "not this shit again" and stop taking Gul'dan's calls.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:46 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Seriously, it's best not to think too hard about anything in WoD when it comes to the overall "time/pocket dimension and the MU/AU."

It's a "Rule of Cool" story and you'll end up arguing with yourself. Just go with the flow and ignore the story.

Metzen and Co wanted to relive the good ol' days of WC1/2. Just ignore everything else and pretend it's WC1/2 and it's the good guys versus the bad guys.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:56 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Seriously, it's best not to think too hard about anything in WoD when it comes to the overall "time/pocket dimension and the MU/AU."

It's a "Rule of Cool" story and you'll end up arguing with yourself. Just go with the flow and ignore the story.

Metzen and Co wanted to relive the good ol' days of WC1/2. Just ignore everything else and pretend it's WC1/2 and it's the good guys versus the bad guys.
I *GET* that, but at the same time, that's pretty intellectually lazy for a billion-dollar role playing franchise.

I hope they come up with something a little more coherent.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:01 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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I *GET* that, but at the same time, that's pretty intellectually lazy for a billion-dollar role playing franchise.

I hope they come up with something a little more coherent.
Agreed. But at the same you got to remember a few things about the guys behind the game.

They are big into comics. And comics are a continuity mess, DC and Marvel have to frequently destroy and completely rebuild entire universes because of how jacked up things get.

And the players themselves aren't that big into the story. You have the minority of lore fans who post here and in the story forums, but the majority just wants their class to be balanced, enjoy the gameplay and get their purples. They could care less if AU0KJ, MU-KJ exist in so far if they drop loot and have a challenging fight.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:10 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Agreed. But at the same you got to remember a few things about the guys behind the game.

They are big into comics. And comics are a continuity mess, DC and Marvel have to frequently destroy and completely rebuild entire universes because of how jacked up things get.

And the players themselves aren't that big into the story. You have the minority of lore fans who post here and in the story forums, but the majority just wants their class to be balanced, enjoy the gameplay and get their purples. They could care less if AU0KJ, MU-KJ exist in so far if they drop loot and have a challenging fight.
Sadly, yes, you're right on both counts.

As Bolvar says, I can only hope it ends up making more sense than it's looking like it will (or won't) now.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:12 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
They are big into comics. And comics are a continuity mess, DC and Marvel have to frequently destroy and completely rebuild entire universes because of how jacked up things get.
This is why I used the term 'comic book' to describe the flaws in WoW's plot that time, incidentally. Because they're literally inspired by comic books. It seemed like I stepped on a few toes by making the statement, but it's how Metzen describes it himself.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:20 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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This is why I used the term 'comic book' to describe the flaws in WoW's plot that time, incidentally. Because they're literally inspired by comic books. It seemed like I stepped on a few toes by making the statement, but it's how Metzen describes it himself.
It's the truth regardless of what toes get stepped on. Metzen has admitted that he is a huge fan boy of Thor and Simmonson's run on it and admits that it's a huge influence on him.

The WoW story has become a comic book story.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:24 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Rule of cool isn't too bad. Just don't try to think of the story as much. It is just an excuse to give us Draenor pre-Outland and to bring back all the old orcish heroes. The game has been pretty extreme for awhile.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:59 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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There's a number of possibilities and speculations.

There's the "pocket dimension" idea whereby Draenor was taken out of its own timeline and connected to ours.

Everything that usually happened, happened but then it was just carried over, Garrosh arrived sometime, and it is a pocket dimension, nothing else is connected to it and Gul'dan's connection to KJ may have been cut off.

Then there's another one.
The timeline went as usual but it's the portal that is different.
Instead of the normalish portal it's a temporal portal.
We're connecting two different timelines together.
There's our KJ and then there is their KJ.
Two KJs can't exactly meet up because it's two different timelines that are Only connected by a portal.
The only way that would ever happen would be if KJ went through the time portal.

BUT IDK it's all timey wimey stuff.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:00 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I'd like to focus more on who's aware of what has happened and less on the exact nature of the wibbly wobbly timey wimey, but I am interested to see if there is an AU Kil'Jaeden, or if the MU Kil'Jaeden interacts with this new reality.

Reason being, if there's only one Kil'Jaeden, I could see him going after Draenor in order to A. exact his vengeance on Velen in person, and B. claim the orcs, with or without their consent this time. Whether or not he's the reason for this new Draenor, Kil'Jaeden would make an appropriate final boss. Draenei fans might enjoy taking down the leader of the corrupted branch of their species.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:01 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I reckon it's a fine thing to tell a story where everything is extreme, over the top and implausible. What grates me about the Warcraft (and even more so the Starcraft) franchise is that at one time it was different. It was a story you could comfortably and easily appreciate for its narrative style. It had depth, breadth, weight and substance. And that was great! I loved that. That's why I stuck with it for so long. It's a fine thing to tell a story where everything is played for the cheapest action possible, but it is NOT fine, in my opinion, to betray the trust of an audience which has come to expect better.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:17 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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While I shouldn't be surprised that this has turned to whining about the story, is there really anything to say in that regard that hasn't been said?
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
While I shouldn't be surprised that this has turned to whining about the story, is there really anything to say in that regard that hasn't been said?
English is a terrific language because you can say the same thing so many different ways.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:31 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
I'd like to focus more on who's aware of what has happened and less on the exact nature of the wibbly wobbly timey wimey, but I am interested to see if there is an AU Kil'Jaeden, or if the MU Kil'Jaeden interacts with this new reality.

Reason being, if there's only one Kil'Jaeden, I could see him going after Draenor in order to A. exact his vengeance on Velen in person, and B. claim the orcs, with or without their consent this time. Whether or not he's the reason for this new Draenor, Kil'Jaeden would make an appropriate final boss. Draenei fans might enjoy taking down the leader of the corrupted branch of their species.
They are on record as saying that MU and AU counterparts will not be meeting with each other in WoD. So make of that as you will.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:15 PM
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While I shouldn't be surprised that this has turned to whining about the story, is there really anything to say in that regard that hasn't been said?
Every thread here turns into "Blizzard sucks", and every thread on the story forums turns into "Horde bias." I am honestly not sure which is worse.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:23 PM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I reckon it's a fine thing to tell a story where everything is extreme, over the top and implausible. What grates me about the Warcraft (and even more so the Starcraft) franchise is that at one time it was different. It was a story you could comfortably and easily appreciate for its narrative style. It had depth, breadth, weight and substance. And that was great! I loved that. That's why I stuck with it for so long. It's a fine thing to tell a story where everything is played for the cheapest action possible, but it is NOT fine, in my opinion, to betray the trust of an audience which has come to expect better.
They should embrace it and go full saints row mode
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Skids taps Megatron's Autobot badge.

Skids: Right. There. What does that badge even mean to you? How has wearing it forced you to modify your behaviour? I'm serious! How has being an Autobot in any way prevented you from doing exactly what you want? Because if the answer is "it hasn't"—then nothing you've said or done in the last six months counts for anything.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:47 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Seriously, it's best not to think too hard about anything in WoD when it comes to the overall "time/pocket dimension and the MU/AU."

It's a "Rule of Cool" story and you'll end up arguing with yourself. Just go with the flow and ignore the story.

Metzen and Co wanted to relive the good ol' days of WC1/2. Just ignore everything else and pretend it's WC1/2 and it's the good guys versus the bad guys.
I still think the best way they can explain it to completely get rid of time travel concerns is just say the artifact Kairoz used brings Draenor to our time period where Draenor used to be. Now it's in our timeline with our Legion and there's zero actual time travel involved.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:52 PM
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None of you realises what's really going on.

>We go through the Dark Portal with Thrall
>Thrall goes with us
>Thrall sounds like Troll
>Trolls are on ships over the sea because Zandalar is sinking
>Therefore, the Dark Below is real
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:00 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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I still think the best way they can explain it to completely get rid of time travel concerns is just say the artifact Kairoz used brings Draenor to our time period where Draenor used to be. Now it's in our timeline with our Legion and there's zero actual time travel involved.
So what happens with Outland?

It merges with Draenor? Or is completely cut off and thus lost until they can figure out how to reconnect it?

If it was me and the goal was to bring the old Horde leaders back, I would've just had Garrosh go back, grab them and bring them into Outland. They shut down the portal and completely rebuild.

We can also get new Draenei stuff by just handwaving and say that the majority of the draenei have been rebuilding in Outland, thus the BT is restored to it's previous look and explain why the draenei have been all but absent since TBC.

No time travel, no copies, no issues except that it's in Outland again. But it can be fixed.
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