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  #76  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:18 AM
Yarathir Yarathir is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
I lol'd.



I double lol'd.



I triple lol'd.



I lol'd again.

Stay forever mad, now please stop speaking for the entirety of the Alliance fans. Thank you.

The fact that you can only reply in such a way says enough about you and your circumstances. And nah, I'm not mad. Pointing something out does not always have to be paired with being outraged or aggravated.
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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
At this point, I agree.

Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

Faction war can be done well, but Blizzard has half assed it and it has predictably flopped as a result.
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It's not that wierd, it's just a fancy name for regular fisting.
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Well when you put it that way the Alliance has had plenty of fist-pumping moments lately.
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  #77  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:23 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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I still don't really understand why alliance players are so bitter and whiny about it...

The entire community looks like a fat kid wanting more Oreos to me...

*Sigh*
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  #78  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:38 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
What do you want Fojar?
Attention, I think.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #79  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:39 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
That's pretty much what happened to the Alliance during Cataclysm though.
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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
Fixed.
Really guys? Really? You're seriously equating complete and utter removal of an entire faction to having slightly less satisfactory quests?

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
I'd take the Horde races joining the Alliance and a new focus upon RACIAL lore thereafter now there's no need to make two separate pieces of levelling/story content over the "One side has to suffer" shit we had to suffer right from Vanilla back when half of the Horde's content wasn't finished. I think if there wasn't such "4 DA H0RDE!11!" wank in the fandom they might have done this.
While I'm all for the disbanding of the factions and the orcs and stuff joining the alliance (though the idea that it happens by force is kinda ludicrous, from the perspective of both horde and alliance races), I do have to ask this; If the horde had attacked Stormwind at the end of cata with the help of other alliance nations sick of Varian's crap, would you be saying that all the alliance races should now just join the horde?

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Originally Posted by Mshadowz View Post
You could hide the entire forum and say that.
Nonsense. Grackle and ARM have good posts and Xil is hilarious.





Honestly, the playerbase is using this really weird double-standard regarding alliance content.

Are the villains all related to the horde lore, as in WoD? Obvious horde bias.
Are the villains all related to alliance lore, as in WotLK? No Bias.

Is the game released in an unfinished state at the expense of horde content? No bias.
Is the game released in an unfinished state at the expense of alliance content? Horde bias.

Does the alliance not retake the capitals of non-playable factions, like Stromgarde? Horde bias.
Does the horde not retake retake the capitals of non-playable factions, like Icemist Village? No Bias.

Does the alliance not recruit factions of the same race that are dicks, but hostile to the horde, like the scarlet crusade? Horde bias.
Does the horde not recruit factions of the same race that are dicks, but hostile to the alliance, like the jungle troll tribes? No bias.

Does the horde attack an alliance capital city to stop the faction war, killing a leader and retreating without damaging the city? No bias.
Does the alliance attack a horde capital city to stop the faction war, killing a leader and retreating without damaging the city? Horde bias.

Do factions traditionally aligned with the alliance distance themselves from both factions? Horde bias.
Do factions traditionally aligned with the horde distance themselves from both factions? No bias.

Is alliance territory from the previous games under the control of the horde, like Lordaeron? Horde bias.
Is horde territory from the previous games under the control of the alliance, like Azeroth? No bias.

Are we doing neutral quests for a group that currently provides large-scale support for the alliance, like the cenarion circle? Horde bias.
Are we doing neutral quests for a group that once provided large-scale support for the horde, like the earthen ring? Horde bias.

I mean, I've made it plenty clear that I'm an alliance fan, aren't I? I adore the human kingdoms, love the draenei quests in TBC, Wintergarde is one of my favorite questing hubs and I dig Night Elf lore only slightly less than Ferlion.
However, the expectations some fans place upon the story are ludicrous. Every single loss the alliance suffers, even if they started out with more, must be coupled with a horde loss of equivalent value. But for every gain the alliance makes, there shouldn't be a horde equivalent, because that'd be pandering.
Cataclysm is a good example. Southshore gets lost on the alliance side, and there are territorial losses in ashenvale. Sure. And the equivalent horde losses aren't as severe. I'll give you that. But the alliance also gets the highborne, the circle of the ancients and the dark iron dwarves, without any real horde equivalent (I guess you could count the shatterspear, but we know what happened to them). But despite that, people still treat it as a sign that the alliance is slowly decaying. Gilneas is left abandoned. So is Kezan. The former is a grave tragedy of justice. The latter is shrugged at.
Any loss on the side of the alliance is a tragedy. Any loss on the side of the horde should be sucked up. Any gain for the alliance is a triviality. Any gain for the horde a travesty.
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  #80  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:39 AM
Silveraith Silveraith is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I am speaking on behalf of the entire Horde when I apologize.

Sylvanas is bad and does evil things. No whitewashing or anything here! The Wrathgate was our mistake. Sorry the Horde almost summoned Sargeras by trusting a dread lord who would of destroyed the entire world as we know it.

Sorry the orcs wiped out the Draenei and destroyed Draenor. Then came to Azeroth and tried to kill everyone. Only about twenty years after that they tried to do it again. It isn't the night elves' fault that the orcs need food. They should of traded for it or offered warriors while they established their own agriculture base.

These are careless mistakes. They won't happen again. I promise.
I fail to see how the Draenei massacre and the First War are the Horde's fault. That seems to me to be the fault of the Draenei themselves and the Burning Legion.

I mean the Draenei came to Draenor and didn't tell anybody that they were being hunted religiously by an interdimensional army of death and damnation. Hell, it's the Draenei's fault the Orcs lost so much culture. The First War is the Burning Legion's fault because the Orcs were already compromised by them due to the inactions of the Draenei.

The Wrathgate incident can indeed be blamed on the Forsaken. While the war in Ashenvale is nobody's true "fault", just a simple case of people killing each other because they live next to each other. No different then the many wars throughout human, dwarf or troll history.
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  #81  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:45 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post








That should take care of that. Summon me if you have further need of my services.
Beat me to it.
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Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #82  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
The fact that you can only reply in such a way says enough about you and your circumstances.
He kinda does have a point, though. I mean, the fact that the Alliance's story dissatisfactory doesn't mean that the same should happen to the Horde too to even things out, even if the reverse may sort of have happened in Cataclysm. When someone suggests that the Horde should be abolished that person is essentially suggesting that parts of the Horde player base should be punished for decisions they had no control over. Besides, you'll find that a sizable demographic of Horde players aren't any more satisfied with the story they got than Alliance players. Not everyone signed up to be Scourge version 2.0 or an insane racist's goon.

Another thing to consider is that Garrosh was just dethroned. What happens after is something that hasn't been shown yet, so statements like "the ironic part is that even after the latest expansion the Horde STILL has not uttered a single apology to the Alliance" are premature. The next part ("[...] for everything they've done since they first goose-stepped onto Azeroth.") doesn't really compute. I think you meant the orcs, Fojar, and not the whole Horde. Don't expect an apology from Vol'jin for actions he actually had nothing to do with.

Just wait for the next novel to come out and see what actually happens. You can still complain after. If you've got concerns, you can reach the people in charge on twitter.
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  #83  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:57 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Honestly, the playerbase is using this really weird double-standard regarding alliance content.
Way to tar everyone with the same brush, something you've complained about when other people do that.

Quote:
Are the villains all related to the horde lore, as in WoD? Obvious horde bias. Are the villains all related to alliance lore, as in WotLK? No Bias.
Oh so the Lich King wasn't related to the Horde whatsoever, despite being created from Ner'zhul?

Quote:
Does the alliance not retake the capitals of non-playable factions, like Stromgarde? Horde bias.
Does the horde not retake retake the capitals of non-playable factions, like Icemist Village? No Bias.
You're not serious? I'm sorry, but you can't compare the 2, at all. Stromgarde has a fuckton more history behind it (recent, and especially, ancient) than Icemist Village.

Quote:
Does the alliance not recruit factions of the same race that are dicks, but hostile to the horde, like the scarlet crusade? Horde bias.
Does the horde not recruit factions of the same race that are dicks, but hostile to the alliance, like the jungle troll tribes? No bias.
I've never seen anyone complaining about faction bias on this subject. Both factions fans seem to agree both should of recruited more of their own races. (humans, trolls, etc)

Quote:
Does the horde attack an alliance capital city to stop the faction war, killing a leader and retreating without damaging the city? No bias.
Does the alliance attack a horde capital city to stop the faction war, killing a leader and retreating without damaging the city? Horde bias.
What?

Quote:
Do factions traditionally aligned with the alliance distance themselves from both factions? Horde bias.
Do factions traditionally aligned with the horde distance themselves from both factions? No bias.
This isn't an issue of bias, this subject is just Blizzard use "neutral" factions piss-poorly.

Quote:
Is alliance territory from the previous games under the control of the horde, like Lordaeron? Horde bias.
Is horde territory from the previous games under the control of the alliance, like Azeroth? No bias.
Wait, you're seriously comparing Azeroth/Stormwind, after being destroyed by the Orcs, to Lordaeron? I have no words for how stupid this point sounds man.

Quote:
Are we doing neutral quests for a group that currently provides large-scale support for the alliance, like the cenarion circle? Horde bias.
Are we doing neutral quests for a group that once provided large-scale support for the horde, like the earthen ring? Horde bias.
Again; This isn't an issue of bias, this subject is just Blizzard use "neutral" factions piss-poorly.

At the end of the day, you can't say Alliance haven't gotten the short-end of the stick with Theramore. Christ sake I'm still technically Horde, and was certainly Horde during that Scenario going live/Tides of War coming out, I still found it amazingly bad decision making on Blizzard's part to destroy so iconic (and to some people, loved) a place for Alliance and take NOTHING away from the Horde.

If they want a 2 faction system, you need to give and take from both to make it work. That's not faction bias, or fanwankery, that's just a fact.

Last edited by Hammerbrew; 12-30-2013 at 09:00 AM..
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  #84  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:18 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Way to tar everyone with the same brush, something you've complained about when other people do that.
Fair enough, fair enough. It's a significant portion of the player-base nonetheless, but it's not defined by any particular group.

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Oh so the Lich King wasn't related to the Horde whatsoever, despite being created from Ner'zhul?
You mean the guy that was killed before the expansion? The one who I don't think even got a mention in the expansion itself?

Quote:
You're not serious? I'm sorry, but you can't compare the 2, at all. Stromgarde has a fuckton more history behind it (recent, and especially, ancient) than Icemist Village.
Which is part of my exact point. The alliance already has more backstory than the horde. It was their fo'shizzle being invaded in the previous games, after all. However, many people now seem to act like everything that has any backstory related to the alliance should be alliance territory, despite that encompassing the vast, vast majority of the planet. It's the stance of 'we already have more lore, so that means we should have more stuff too!'

Quote:
What?
Theramore and Orgrimmar.

Quote:
Wait, you're seriously comparing Azeroth/Stormwind, after being destroyed by the Orcs, to Lordaeron? I have no words for how stupid this point sounds man.
Then tell me what the difference is without saying 'the horde doesn't have as much history as the alliance in Azeroth anyway'. The horde doesn't have as much history as the alliance anywhere. It's a logic that again says 'oh, we already have more focus than the other side in the backstory, that means we should have more focus than the other side in actual gameplay as well'.

Quote:
Again; This isn't an issue of bias, this subject is just Blizzard use "neutral" factions piss-poorly.
Quote:
I've never seen anyone complaining about faction bias on this subject. Both factions fans seem to agree both sound of recruited more of their own races. (humans, trolls, etc)
Really? How long've you been hanging around the fandom?

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
At the end of the day, you can't say Alliance haven't gotten the short-end of the stick with Theramore. Christ sake I'm still technically Horde, and was certainly Horde during that Scenario going live/Tides of War coming out, I still found it amazingly bad decision making on Blizzard's part to destroy so iconic (and to some people, loved) a place for Alliance and take NOTHING away from the Horde.
I'm not going to argue the alliance got the short end of the stick with Theramore (still don't get what the point of that was). However, that's not an issue that affects actual gameplay or iconic stuff, because, get this, Theramore is still in-game and the alliance gained a replacement capital. You can still visit the place in its original state any time you want. Despite that, people suggest that an equivalent for losing it is to add an entire extra alliance-only capital city. And that's on the low end of the scale. After that, it goes to the permanent removal of Orgrimmar, the permanent removal of all forsaken territories to, in this very thread, THE REMOVAL OF THE ENTIRE HORDE FACTION.
I'm not saying the story isn't bad, I'm saying the expectations regarding the alliance story are completely and utterly ridiculous and the reaction is goddamn overblown.
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  #85  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:23 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I'm glad this thread happened, if only so when someone inevitably says that the Alliance player base is full of insightful suggestions and entirely insane-troll-logic free, I have something to point to which concentrates all of it to nearly weaponized levels.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Honestly, the playerbase is using this really weird double-standard regarding alliance content.
S'what I've been saying since Cataclysm hit beta, but yeah.
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  #86  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:41 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Am I a traitorous enabler Kellick?
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  #87  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:42 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
You mean the guy that was killed before the expansion? The one who I don't think even got a mention in the expansion itself?
He got minor mentions, granted they weren't especially noteworthy. And that entire sub-plot, with Arthas "killing" him was retarded as fuck. We had the entire character of Ner'zhul, who'd been built up as this evil mastermind as the Lich King, reduced to being killed in his own mind so Arthas could play big bad? Horrible storytelling and character development, but, without wanting to turn this thread into "Blizzard sucks" - well, yeah.

Quote:
Which is part of my exact point. The alliance already has more backstory than the horde. It was their fo'shizzle being invaded in the previous games, after all. However, many people now seem to act like everything that has any backstory related to the alliance should be alliance territory, despite that encompassing the vast, vast majority of the planet. It's the stance of 'we already have more lore, so that means we should have more stuff too!'
Quote:
Then tell me what the difference is without saying 'the horde doesn't have as much history as the alliance in Azeroth anyway'. The horde doesn't have as much history as the alliance anywhere. It's a logic that again says 'oh, we already have more focus than the other side in the backstory, that means we should have more focus than the other side in actual gameplay as well'.
I dunno man, don't get too caught up thinking of the Horde as just "The Orcs" - the Tauren have a history that dates back to the ancient world. It's not Alliance fans fault Blizzard have neglected the Tauren race horribly. (And as I've said before, Tauren both need and deserve some facetime and lore development.) The Trolls, again, ancient world. Again, not Alliance fans fault that Blizzard can't do the Darkspears properly.

The Blood Elves have a lot of history too them aswell, although I admit this is a more contentious point when you consider the High Elven part of that.

Quote:
Theramore and Orgrimmar.
Er, Orgrimmar is still standing, and despite how little sense it made, still in Horde hands?

See my end point in my first reply.

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Really? How long've you been hanging around the fandom?
Too long. But, as I've mentioned before, I avoid the Official forums because I'd rather eat my own shit than read what people post there. It's 90% complete garbage written by teenagers, the story forums especially.

From my own experience in-game over the years (and lots of lurking here) the gripe is always over the neutral factions because of how they're used in-game. Yes, there's a degree of faction-based complaint around it, of course, but it's not Horde Bias or Alliance Bias.

Quote:
I'm not going to argue the alliance got the short end of the stick with Theramore (still don't get what the point of that was). However, that's not an issue that affects actual gameplay or iconic stuff, because, get this, Theramore is still in-game and the alliance gained a replacement capital. You can still visit the place in its original state any time you want. Despite that, people suggest that an equivalent for losing it is to add an entire extra alliance-only capital city.
Theramore is only accessible in-game because Blizzard couldn't be fucked adding new quests there (or elsewhere) for leveling players. Once you do the scenario, which most players have, the Isle is phased to be gone, you have to specifically talk to the Bronze Dragon NPC to phase it back; again, only for questing purposes.

Side note: It's amusing that Bronze NPC is even there now, because as has been made clear, the Bronzes no longer have THAT kind of power as she does. But I expect too much from Blizzard to be consistent with such things.

Dalaran is already in-game, it requires ZERO new asset development to be given to Alliance as a city to compensate for Theramore. Just plant it down in the original location, phase that zone so low level players can quest as normal; job done. Hell, don't even bother with that if need be, simply keep it flying in the limbo it's in now but give players a portal via Stormwind (and Mages) to get there. No flight enabled to avoid people going places they shouldn't.

Quote:
I'm not saying the story isn't bad, I'm saying the expectations regarding the alliance story are completely and utterly ridiculous and the reaction is goddamn overblown.
Both factions fans have always, still are, and will always be, prone to unrealistic expectations. This is, again, not a Horde/Alliance bias issue.

Part of what makes this forum enjoyable, for me atleast, is being able to read and/or post about such things with people who, regardless of their own feelings on the issue, can talk (even debate) about it without it turning into the shit-throwing mongoloid style of the Official forums.
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  #88  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:07 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
I still don't really understand why alliance players are so bitter and whiny about it...

The entire community looks like a fat kid wanting more Oreos to me...

*Sigh*
Aren't you the person constantly wanting more Belf lore?
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  #89  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:14 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Aren't you the person constantly wanting more Belf lore?
I want silvermoon updated... its out of date by about.. Um.. cannot remember IC years.

I also am grumpy there is no Priest lore for Blood elf Priests.. Which there isn't.

Thats it.

Can't really call me the fat kid, when I haven't got fat already. I am eating bread sticks before the main.

(Not sure if that worked, but going with it)
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  #90  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:27 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Sagara View Post
That's the kind of thing the game sorely needs (along more racial stories *cough*) - the factions must be made heterogenous, a complex pile-up of philosophies and outlooks that keep clashing and that, when looked at from the outside makes about as much sense as... basically nothing. Because at that point, there's not much left of the "Horde" or the "Alliance", expect in the grand armies (and even THEN).
That was great!
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  #91  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:36 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
He got minor mentions, granted they weren't especially noteworthy. And that entire sub-plot, with Arthas "killing" him was retarded as fuck. We had the entire character of Ner'zhul, who'd been built up as this evil mastermind as the Lich King, reduced to being killed in his own mind so Arthas could play big bad? Horrible storytelling and character development, but, without wanting to turn this thread into "Blizzard sucks" - well, yeah.
Hence, me not counting him as a villain for WotLK. Guy was murdered before.
The main villains are:
A - Yogg-saron, much of whom's plot revolves around the birth of humanity, gnomity and dwarviciousness.
B - Arthas, who needs no introduction
C - Malygos, who admittedly doesn't have much of a history with the alliance, but his entire conflict this expansion revolves around the Kirin Tor

Quote:
I dunno man, don't get too caught up thinking of the Horde as just "The Orcs" - the Tauren have a history that dates back to the ancient world. It's not Alliance fans fault Blizzard have neglected the Tauren race horribly. (And as I've said before, Tauren both need and deserve some facetime and lore development.) The Trolls, again, ancient world. Again, not Alliance fans fault that Blizzard can't do the Darkspears properly.
The tauren and darkspear have a lot of history, sure. What they don't have however is a lot of lore. There is no tauren equivalent of Suramar or Eldre'thalas. There is no troll equivalent of the wildhammer or the stormpike. Hell, even the orc equivalents of Stromgarde and Dalaran god dumped somewhere around warcraft III. If you focus solely on who has the most lore in which locations, this is how the territory would end up divided:

Alliance:
-All of the eastern kingdoms minus Stranglethorn Vale
-All areas in Kalimdor north of the barrens, along with stonetalon, Silithus, Un'goro, Tanaris (remember, ancient pact between night elves and dragons) and Feralas
-Dragonblight, Grizzly Hills, Howling Fjord, Storm Peaks and crystalsong forest.
-All of outland minus Blade's edge and Hellfire

Horde:
-Barrens, Mulgore, Durotar, lost isles, blade's edge, Stranglethorn Vale

Saying 'X should be alliance because alliance have more lore there' is pretty much tantamount to asking the world be divided according to this standard.

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Er, Orgrimmar is still standing, and despite how little sense it made, still in Horde hands?
Meant the warcraft III attack on theramore, not the mop one.

Quote:
Too long. But, as I've mentioned before, I avoid the Official forums because I'd rather eat my own shit than read what people post there. It's 90% complete garbage written by teenagers, the story forums especially.

From my own experience in-game over the years (and lots of lurking here) the gripe is always over the neutral factions because of how they're used in-game. Yes, there's a degree of faction-based complaint around it, of course, but it's not Horde Bias or Alliance Bias.
I did lots of hanging around MMO-Champ before this forum, where you couldn't throw a stone without someone arguing that the earthen ring being neutral was horde bias and the cenarion circle being neutral was horde bias.

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Theramore is only accessible in-game because Blizzard couldn't be fucked adding new quests there (or elsewhere) for leveling players. Once you do the scenario, which most players have, the Isle is phased to be gone, you have to specifically talk to the Bronze Dragon NPC to phase it back; again, only for questing purposes.

Dalaran is already in-game, it requires ZERO new asset development to be given to Alliance as a city to compensate for Theramore. Just plant it down in the original location, phase that zone so low level players can quest as normal; job done. Hell, don't even bother with that if need be, simply keep it flying in the limbo it's in now but give players a portal via Stormwind (and Mages) to get there. No flight enabled to avoid people going places they shouldn't.
Which still makes it accessible in its original form. That's kind of my point. It's a cool iconic place, and despite its destruction in the lore, you can still visit it. It's not been lost to players, and yet the argument becomes that players should get something (often much bigger, like Dalaran) or others should lose something (again, something much bigger, like Orgrimmar) to make up for it. It's invocation of gameplay balance for something that's not actually part of the gameplay.

Also, Dalaran would require some new assets if you planted it in its original location the ground texture of Dalaran is a WMO model, not an actual ground surface. Pretty sure the in-game dalaran is actually bigger than the crater it came from too.

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Both factions fans have always, still are, and will always be, prone to unrealistic expectations. This is, again, not a Horde/Alliance bias issue.
I'm not saying both sides don't have their exaggerations, it's just that the most common forms of it seem to come almost exclusively from the alliance, way too often invoking the idea that blizzard not giving much more to the alliance than the horde is a sign of blizzard favoring the horde.
I've seen some stupid, stupid claims from horde fans, sure, but I don't think I've ever seen something like the Lordaeron movement, where players want the horde removed from an entire sub-continent.

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Part of what makes this forum enjoyable, for me atleast, is being able to read and/or post about such things with people who, regardless of their own feelings on the issue, can talk (even debate) about it without it turning into the shit-throwing mongoloid style of the Official forums.
Agreed there, though it does sometimes veer rather close.
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  #92  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:10 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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The tauren and darkspear have a lot of history, sure. What they don't have however is a lot of lore.
Quite, and that is the fault of only one party; Blizzard. Not the fans, of either faction.

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Meant the warcraft III attack on theramore, not the mop one.
Ah right, fair enough. Well in that case, while I can agree with you more on it, I don't know if you could compare present Orgrimmar to WC3 Era Theramore. Orgrimmar is vastly bigger city in terms of size and population, and certainly, as de facto Capital of the Horde, a more politically important place. (Although I'm not downplaying Theramore, I think it was more important, politically, than the Lore often gave it credit for.)

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I did lots of hanging around MMO-Champ before this forum, where you couldn't throw a stone without someone arguing that the earthen ring being neutral was horde bias and the cenarion circle being neutral was horde bias.
MMO-Champion Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

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Which still makes it accessible in its original form. That's kind of my point. It's a cool iconic place, and despite its destruction in the lore, you can still visit it. It's not been lost to players
Might just be me, and the RPers I tend to associate with, but knowing it's gone in Lore is what matters. Only really bad RPers get involved with Time Travel stories/events and I steer well clear of that sort of thing. Of course that's only my personal view but I feel it breaks immersion too much for Theramore to still be accessible, even via a Bronze.

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Also, Dalaran would require some new assets if you planted it in its original location the ground texture of Dalaran is a WMO model, not an actual ground surface. Pretty sure the in-game dalaran is actually bigger than the crater it came from too.
Some, granted, but not a lot. Certainly not with Blizzard's dev team size and budget. (This is a whole other issue in fairness, the use of Dev resources, so I won't dwell on this point.)

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I'm not saying both sides don't have their exaggerations, it's just that the most common forms of it seem to come almost exclusively from the alliance, way too often invoking the idea that blizzard not giving much more to the alliance than the horde is a sign of blizzard favoring the horde.
I've seen some stupid, stupid claims from horde fans, sure, but I don't think I've ever seen something like the Lordaeron movement, where players want the horde removed from an entire sub-continent.
[Speaking only for myself here] While I do support the idea of Lordaeron being returned to it's rightful owners, the Humans, I have no issue with the Horde being allowed to maintain a presence in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Blood Elves/Quel'Thalas would be able to offer the Forsaken a home in the Ghostlands. It would fit their aesthetics well infact.

I'd also actually argue that the Horde (Darkspears and Orcs especially) should desire, and should be allowed, to build more of a presence in Stranglethorn Vale, rather than the medicore holdings they have there now. The Alliance have no real claim to that area, and from what I can see, have never TRIED to claim any of it, despite the troubles in nearby Westfall. (Which makes me laugh when some people say the Alliance, Humans especially, are imperialist conquerors, fucking nonsense.)

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Agreed there, though it does sometimes veer rather close.
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  #93  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:28 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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9 hidden posts. And nothing of value was lost.
To be fair, this post can't be considered something of value either.

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Really guys? Really? You're seriously equating complete and utter removal of an entire faction to having slightly less satisfactory quests?
I don't think anyone has done that.

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Honestly, the playerbase is using this really weird double-standard regarding alliance content.
Ok, let's look at theses double-standards.

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Are the villains all related to the horde lore, as in WoD? Obvious horde bias.
Are the villains all related to alliance lore, as in WotLK? No Bias.
I don't think anyone said WoD was Horde biased. And Wrath villains weren't all related to the Alliance to begin with.

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Is the game released in an unfinished state at the expense of horde content? No bias.
Is the game released in an unfinished state at the expense of alliance content? Horde bias.
Come on. Nobody says it's good thing the Horde was scrapped in Vanilla. But the difference is that Blizzard should have learneed from their mistake so you can't justify the Alliance's content in Cata using the Horde's content in Vanilla without being a retard. And the Cataclysm quests will stay until the end of the game, Vanilla questing is removed.

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Does the alliance not retake the capitals of non-playable factions, like Stromgarde? Horde bias.
Does the horde not retake retake the capitals of non-playable factions, like Icemist Village? No Bias.
Seriously, what the hell? The Horde should retake it too, where do you take that idea? It's jsut that Stromgarde is one of the Human Kingdoms so of course people want it reclaimed.

Im sorry, Ramses, but I don't see theses as anything but double-standards created by your imagination. Especially since msot of this stuff was never said to begin with. I don't think I need to go through all of them, enough have been said already.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:37 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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To be fair, on the WoW forums there are plenty of people thinking the next xpac is Horde bias, though I'm of the opinion it's more Orc biased than anything.
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  #95  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:37 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Quite, and that is the fault of only one party; Blizzard. Not the fans, of either faction.
True enough, but it has resulted in the afore-mentioned scenario among the fans. Blizzard gave the horde less lore, and now there is a significant portion of fans that demand that the horde should have less gameplay because of that.

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Ah right, fair enough. Well in that case, while I can agree with you more on it, I don't know if you could compare present Orgrimmar to WC3 Era Theramore. Orgrimmar is vastly bigger city in terms of size and population, and certainly, as de facto Capital of the Horde, a more politically important place. (Although I'm not downplaying Theramore, I think it was more important, politically, than the Lore often gave it credit for.)
Pretty off-topic, but there was a pretty long time in canon when Theramore was actually the de facto capital of the alliance. It's only when the second edition of the RPG rolled around that the alliance was officially unified and Stormwind became the great central power, which was kept when the RPG was retconned around WotLK.

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MMO-Champion Forums. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
*guttural snarl*

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Might just be me, and the RPers I tend to associate with, but knowing it's gone in Lore is what matters. Only really bad RPers get involved with Time Travel stories/events and I steer well clear of that sort of thing. Of course that's only my personal view but I feel it breaks immersion too much for Theramore to still be accessible, even via a Bronze.
Fair enough, fair enough. I have a massive dislike for the destruction of Theramore as well. However, arguing that there should be gameplay compensation for something that's not been lost gameplay-wise is what feels silly to me.

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[Speaking only for myself here] While I do support the idea of Lordaeron being returned to it's rightful owners, the Humans, I have no issue with the Horde being allowed to maintain a presence in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Blood Elves/Quel'Thalas would be able to offer the Forsaken a home in the Ghostlands. It would fit their aesthetics well infact.
It would fit the aesthetics, true, but the problem is that there's still not really a horde equivalent (as the horde would lose questing in three zones, five if you include argent lands (not sure if you do)). There's a big difference between liking the idea, and saying that blizzard is screwing over the alliance by not making it so, and many, many complaints fall into the latter category.

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I'd also actually argue that the Horde (Darkspears and Orcs especially) should desire, and should be allowed, to build more of a presence in Stranglethorn Vale, rather than the medicore holdings they have there now. The Alliance have no real claim to that area, and from what I can see, have never TRIED to claim any of it, despite the troubles in nearby Westfall. (Which makes me laugh when some people say the Alliance, Humans especially, are imperialist conquerors, fucking nonsense.)
Actually, the alliance tried to lay claim to Stranglethorn just before Vanilla through the Kurzen Expedition.

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I don't think anyone has done that.
I quoted two guys who said that removing the entire faction was "pretty much what happened to the alliance".

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I don't think anyone said WoD was Horde biased.
There's actually been a fair amount of claims regarding it being horde biased because all the warlords are horde.

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And Wrath villains weren't all related to the Alliance to begin with.
There's minor ones who aren't, sure, but the big ones are all connected to the alliance story.

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Come on. Nobody says it's good thing the Horde was scrapped in Vanilla. But the difference is that Blizzard should have learneed from their mistake so you can't justify the Alliance's content in Cata using the Horde's content in Vanilla without being a retard. And the Cataclysm quests will stay until the end of the game, Vanilla questing is removed.
Again, in this very thread, there's been examples of vanilla being the only expansion to not marginalize the alliance. See Korath's post that I quoted.

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Seriously, what the hell? The Horde should retake it too, where do you take that idea? It's jsut that Stromgarde is one of the Human Kingdoms so of course people want it reclaimed.
Wanting it reclaimed is one thing. Saying that the alliance isn't allowed to reclaim it because blizzard wants to fuck over the alliance and loves the horde way too much for it to be allowed to happen is another.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:42 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I don't think it's outrageous to ask for Stonard to be destroyed before or after Theramore being destroyed. It's not even like they'd be cut off from the bottom of EK because they'll always have Booty Bay.
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  #97  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:47 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I don't think it's outrageous to ask for Stonard to be destroyed before or after Theramore being destroyed. It's not even like they'd be cut off from the bottom of EK because they'll always have Booty Bay.
Oh, I agree with you there. Hell, I wish they'd have implemented it to get phased at the end of Swamp of Sorrows questing, because the current end makes no sense. I guess the status of places like stonard and hammerfell could get a mention in war crimes.

The thing is though that Stonard is an equivalent to Theramore. The other 'equivalents' that people propose are not even close.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:47 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Well yeah, people said it was the only one who didn't marginalyse the Alliance, but that doesn't mean it was fine for the Horde since it'ss strictly speaking of the Alliance. Though Wrath was probably the most balanced expansion. BC...I don't know.

As for the rest, theses are a few isolated cases, do not assign theses double-standards to the Alliance playerbase, that's like saying the Forsaken fans are all like Xil.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:51 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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In my mind, its not so much that the Alliance loses things when the story fits..... Its that the Horde doesn't when circumstances are reversed.

The Park is a bigger example of this than Theramore.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:54 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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As for the rest, theses are a few isolated cases, do not assign theses double-standards to the Alliance playerbase, that's like saying the Forsaken fans are all like Xil.
If it seems like I'm assigning it to the entire alliance playerbase, I'm not trying to. I mostly play alliance myself, so it'd be hard to. However, there is definitely a big undercurrent that is hard to ignore



Also, gz on the name-change

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The Park is a bigger example of this than Theramore.
Fun fact; even with the park destroyed, Stormwind is still bigger and has more unique NPCs than Orgrimmar.
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