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Old 08-15-2014, 12:50 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Default Blizzard's Portrayal of Culture

So as an individual black man, I ok with Trolls. To me, they're a fusion of African, Caribbean, and South American cultures. I'm fine with the word savage. Especially since language has a history of changing meaning to words because of culture. My issue is how Trolls are portrayed. Compare Trolls to Diablo Witch Doctors. Witch Doctors are amazing. They're an entire culture of people with their own language (I think), traditions, etc. Even if you don't agree with them, you can get where they're coming from. Trolls are displayed as racist, violent people who deserve to be killed off every expansion. Darkspear survive because they've basically abandoned their culture for the Horde. They (Vol'Jin) don't even consider themselves Trolls. Somehow though, if they adopt Tauren culture they're seen as sell outs, and the other races describe them as savages.
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:02 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So as an individual black man, I ok with Trolls. To me, they're a fusion of African, Caribbean, and South American cultures. I'm fine with the word savage. Especially since language has a history of changing meaning to words because of culture. My issue is how Trolls are portrayed. Compare Trolls to Diablo Witch Doctors. Witch Doctors are amazing. They're an entire culture of people with their own language (I think), traditions, etc. Even if you don't agree with them, you can get where they're coming from. Trolls are displayed as racist, violent people who deserve to be killed off every expansion. Darkspear survive because they've basically abandoned their culture for the Horde. They (Vol'Jin) don't even consider themselves Trolls. Somehow though, if they adopt Tauren culture they're seen as sell outs, and the other races describe them as savages.
This is all a result of them trying to make old lore fit with new lore, and since they don't "care" enough about their own story to do it right, they just half ass it. As they themselves "constantly" say, the story for them isn't important. Setting, and thematics are
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:49 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I didn't know trolls were suppose to be Africans.
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:08 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I didn't know trolls were suppose to be Africans.
Voodoo and such. As I said it's a fusion of different things. I could even be wrong about the African part.
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:12 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Voodoo and such. As I said it's a fusion of different things. I could even be wrong about the African part.
I thought they were just based off of the Aztecs and Mayans.

If ogres are going to be based off of Rome doesn't that make them caricatures of white people?
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:23 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I thought they were just based off of the Aztecs and Mayans.

If ogres are going to be based off of Rome doesn't that make them caricatures of white people?
Aztecs and Mayans aren't too big on Voodoo iirc. Also people like Bwonsamdi are based on Baron Samedi, which is a Haitian thing.
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:55 PM
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I think one of the key issues is that Warcraft humans are presented as predominantly white (to the point of orcs calling them “pink skins”) and vaguely European, which means that representation of other races and cultures is mostly left to the non-humans. (If that even counts as representation.) Furthermore, non-Western cultures are disproportionately represented by the Horde and NPC groups (like centaur and non-Darkspear trolls), which tend to be stereotypical (the tauren in particular seem limited by their theme park-Native portrayal) and/or keep getting stuck in villain roles.

So the problem as I see it is not the word #savage by itself, so much as the way the theme of “civilized vs. savage” plays out in the lore. “Savage” races are presented as cool, but often at the cost of being less sympathetic and relatable. This happens especially often with the trolls. They have a legitimate grudge against the players—a lot of the land we occupy did in fact belong to them. But there’s also this sense that we’re not supposed to feel too bad about killing them because, like Noitora said, they’re cannibalistic voodoo barbarians. It’s a little too reminiscent of real-world colonial justifications. (The Tides of Darkness novel even has the trolls referring to humans and elves as “pale ones,” adding to the white settlers vs. natives connotations while also emphasizing the fact that Warcraft humans are whiter than real ones.)

Sometimes you can tell that a quest writer recognized the subtext enough to hang a lampshade on it. Zul’jin is killed on the orders of a guy whose last name is an anagram of “redneck,” and who protests that some of his “best friends are forest trolls” as he’s being carried off by the angry troll ghosts. But lampshade-hanging doesn’t really touch the underlying problem. The player still has to side with Budd, while Zul’jin is unceremoniously turned into a loot piñata with only a patch trailer to tell his side of the story.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:28 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I don't mind white humans since it's a medieval fantasy. I know they have dark skinned humans in Diablo though.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I don't mind white humans since it's a medieval fantasy.
But black people existed in medieval times.


In Europe.


No matter how far back you go in time you will never have some magical all-white europe.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:33 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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But black people existed in medieval times.


In Europe.


No matter how far back you go in time you will never have some magical all-white europe.
Were they immigrants, slaves, or natives? Do they have a kingdom? I said I knew they have blacks in Diablo. Those who aren't Witch Doctors as well.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:37 PM
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Were they immigrants, slaves, or natives? Do they have a kingdom?
1. Does it matter? This is a fantasy game.



2.




3. http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/7...-did-europeans

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Maybe this is a crazy question, but how did Europeans know what Africans looked like? I know that some of the paintings here are of North Africans/Middle Easterners, but others clearly depict people born south of the Sahara. I've heard of Prester John but I never imagined that medieval Europeans were aware that Prester John would have had brown skin. Am I missing something?
Like. There are a lot of things I could say here. But I’m just going to do my best to answer your question, and the answer is either very simple or very complicated, depending on your current point of view.

1. “They” knew what people with brown skin looked like because people with brown skin had been there literally THE ENTIRE TIME. Some (and father back, ALL) of “them” had brown skin themselves.

2. “People with Brown Skin” and “Europeans” are not separate and mutually exclusive groups.

3. No matter how far back you go, the mythical time that you’re looking for, when all-white, racially and culturally isolated Europe was “real”, will continue to recede from your grasp until it winkles out the like imaginary place it is.

We can just keep going back. In every area, from all walks of life, rich and poor, kings and peasants, artists and iconoclasts, before there were countries and continents, before there were white people.
Belgium 1084

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/6...-bible-genesis


Greece 530 BCE
http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/6...pe-of-the-head
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
But black people existed in medieval times.


In Europe.


No matter how far back you go in time you will never have some magical all-white europe.
And the likelihood that an European ever got to see non-white people during those times was? While "there were no black people in Europe during medieval times" might not be a valid excuse to exclude them, chances are that it's still an accurate portrayal of medieval society.

By the way, the first time my grandmother saw black people was after WW2.

(Nothing I said matters, though. There's no real reason to not sprinkle the big cities with a few non-white people, from time to time.)

In WOW though, having exclusively white people would actually make sense. Consider their ancestry and where they settled.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:41 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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And the likelihood that an European ever got to see non-white people during those times was? While "there were no black people in Europe during medieval times" might not be a valid excuse to exclude them, chances are that it's still an accurate portrayal of medieval society.

By the way, the first time my grandmother saw black people was after WW2.

(Nothing I said matters, though. There's no real reason to not sprinkle the big cities with a few non-white people, from time to time.)

In WOW though, having exclusively white people would actually make sense. Consider their ancestry and where they settled.

Please refer to my above Edits.

The belief that Black people would've been so rare as for people to have gone their whole lives without seeing them is incredibly unlikely.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I know someone from North Dakota that never saw a black female and only saw one black male. There are some parts of the world that aren't very diverse.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:44 PM
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Please refer to my above Edits.

The belief that Black people would've been so rare as for people to have gone their whole lives without seeing them is incredibly unlikely.
You forget rural communities.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:44 PM
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You forget rural communities.
Most stories don't take place in rural communities exclusively.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:45 PM
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Most stories don't take place in rural communities exclusively.
I know, that's why I said that one could sprinkle the big cities (and trade hubs, but I forgot those).
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
But black people existed in medieval times.


In Europe.


No matter how far back you go in time you will never have some magical all-white europe.
If you think "poc" were a significant presence in medieval Europe outside of the rare courtier, slave, foreign merchant, etc. then you are sadly mistaken. I know you like to tout medievalpoc's opinions on pieces of art as the end-all source for the fact that there were "poc" actually living in medieval Europe, but medievalpoc likes to misrepresent rarities and treat them as representatives. It's pretty absurd and definitely intellectually dishonest.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:02 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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If you think "poc" were a significant presence in medieval Europe outside of the rare courtier, slave, foreign merchant, etc. then you are sadly mistaken. I know you like to tout medievalpoc's opinions on pieces of art as the end-all source for the fact that there were "poc" actually living in medieval Europe, but medievalpoc likes to misrepresent rarities and treat them as representatives. It's pretty absurd and definitely intellectually dishonest.
That big picture with the red-brown background is from the museum of london.


You can say they're rarities if you like but I'm more inclined to believe a museum than you.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:08 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Why would someone hate black people?
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:12 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Why would someone hate black people?
What are you even talking about?
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:14 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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What are you even talking about?
Why are some people out to neglect or hurt black people?
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:15 PM
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Why would someone hate black people?
Because to some people they're different, and different people scare some people.

Also because of indoctrination, ignorance and blatant racism.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:17 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Why are some people out to neglect or hurt black people?
Do you honestly not understand why someone hates another person due to race?
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:17 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Do you honestly not understand why someone hates another person due to race?
Mebbe. Yes.
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