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Old 02-11-2008, 08:34 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Default Demons and Death.

This I felt was one of the bigger confusions of WarCraft Lore, and felt it would be interesting to discuss it and bring up the different points.

Pretty much every named demon in WarCraft 3 has been "dead". Archimonde was destroyed at the World Tree, Mannoroth at Demon Fall Canyon, etc... all of them being destroyed and not returning. However, there are instances that this seems unusual for demons.

Zmodlor was banished by Aegwynn, resurrected by the Kil'jaeden, and banished once again by Jaina. Jaina even remarked that the only reason he would not return, would be due to Kil'jaeden finding him too insignificant to ressurect.

Worst yet, when taking into account the Ogri'la Questlines, you get this Daily Quest that speaks more on the issue.

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We're not a violent ogre any longer, but the demons nearby threaten to overrun us and the Skyguard. The problem with demons is that, once killed, they come right back in new bodies!
But, if you use this crystal to summon a banishing portal, when they die near it, their essences will be drawn in and banished back from whence they came!
Lets bring up other points, and see what we can learn.
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:43 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Maybe it's about the amount of power.

The more powerful a demon, the more hard it is for it to resurrect.

Kinda like how Sargeras couldn't transfer his whole power to Azeroth.
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Old 02-11-2008, 09:06 AM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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It think it was a typo. They meant to say "Cylons."
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Old 02-11-2008, 07:17 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It is a bit of a quandary. One might argue that the demons near Ogri'la return from death due to their proximity to their home realm (namely the the Twisting Nether). It would mean that most demons on a fully physical world such as Azeroth, being farther removed from the Nether, could be incapable of reconsituting themselves without the aid of a demon far more powerful than themselves, and thus their souls would remain banished after their "deaths". This could also mean that by banishing the soul of a particular demon on the Blade's Edge Plateau, players are effectively "tagging" that specific demon in some manner through the spell crystal they're given which prevents it from simply reemerging from the Nether back into Outland again (or at least without the assistance of a greater demon with enough arcane "muscle" to shatter the spell for them.)

Conversely, this would render the slaying of nearly any demons in Outland a futile effort, however powerful they were, and thus negate the apparent gains made when a player kills the mastermind of a Legion's forces in a particular region (ironically, it would provide a perfect explanation if one felt the need to somehow justify the in-game mechanic of demons' respawns, but since all mobs on both worlds in WoW respawn, such a reason behind it is rendered rather meaningless anyway.)

Additionally, the nature of their death could be a factor: the fact that demons and undead are especially vulnerable to being burnt by the Light's touch could suggest that the Light is actually damaging the very nature of their being to the point that their souls are being effectively severed from their bodies directly rather than the indirect method of just chopping or otherwise damaging the body until it can no longer support their soul. In the case of the demons, it might actually be destroying the soul itself, or at least searing away the parts of the soul that are tainted by their coruption. Generally, when arcane or physical means are used to defeat a demon, it entails banishment or containment of some form (which, while potentially indefinite, still means the demon and to at least some degree its power continues to exist), while the Light is used to consecrate, purify and otherwise nuetralize the presence of the dark energies themselves, without which the demon cannot seem to continue surviving in a physical form at all. Despite this, the basic premises of physical laws seem to apply to the Light like anything else: it's both quantitative and qualitative in relation to its overall effect on an enemy. Thus, against an extremely powerful demon, it takes a lot "more" of the Light to sufficiently damage it to the point of death, and similarly a ritualized consecration and focusing of the Light's energies against the demon is far more likely to be effective and permanent than simply smiting and casting bolts of pure Light at it.

Even if any demon might, feasibly, be brought back by some means, it's entirely possible that the loss of Sargeras effectively eliminated the possibility of resurrecting the likes of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden in the events of their deaths, since the Dark Titan seems likely to be the only demon capable of remaking demons of such power and granting them their former might at the same time. Even such demons as Mannoroth and Tichondrius might be beyond the abilities of their masters to revive without Sargeras himself around (given that they're still dead, it almost seems a foregone conclusion, but seeing as just about anything's possible in WC, there might always remain the chance of some force one day bringing about a "Legion resurgence" under the command of a restored Sargeras attended by his most powerful servants, resurrected and empowered beyond even their former might.)

Until anything's set in stone, it seems we're stuck with the simple possibility that demons regularly stay dead when it's convenient to the story at one point, and routinely return to life in cases when it's useful at another point.
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Old 02-11-2008, 09:58 PM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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The example of Rahk-lihk (I have a feeling I'm spelling it wrong but I'm not going to check it) is, I think, pertinent, and also the spirit I feel it represents. Rahk-lihk's defense of portioning his essence or whatever into three pieces guarded by his lieutenants which must be retrieved and reunited to render him killable is reminiscent of old Oriental demon stories, and I'm sure some European ones, too, where the hero must first complete some task before the demon is vulnerable, because the demon has set up a sort of magical safety net. It's a concept I'm running with in a couple of fanfics. I can't think of any references off the top of my head. Possibly Ninja Scroll's Himuro Gemma, but that's not entirely what I'm talking about.

In any case, demons may have some opportunity to set up this kind of magic safety net, and this could be what the ogres are referring to. Of course the most obvious question this begs is why didn't Archimonde, Mannoroth, Tichondrius, etc etc etc do the same thing, and I don't have any clear answer. Perhaps it takes time to set these things up, and the invasion was moving too quickly to afford them such time and too successfully, in their eyes, to warrant such a delay.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:15 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Or perhaps the safety net costs them some of their power. And fellows like Mannoroth and Archimonde would obviously be hesitant to give that up when they obviously considered themselves unkillable anyway. (Do you think that 'I could die' was one of Archimonde's thoughts when he was sprinting up Hyjal?) Tichondrius on the other hand... uh...
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:23 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I think the only reason demons fear death is that in many cases death means defeat.

And I don't think the big ones will be happy with the losers.

I hope to see more lore on the big demons. Archimonde is laughable. Theys till can take a pick of Mannoroth or Tichondrius, and don't destroy it.

Also, they can repair their lore slaughter with Archimonde. It's not so hard.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:54 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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I'de imagine that it would depend on the method of death and the type of demon. Keep in mind that both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are Eternals, so they aren't your normal run of the mill demons either....

I do imagine that a demon that is summoned by a warlock is not killed when it "dies" but goes back to the Twisting Nether. Same goes for an Elemental. When a demon or elemental is Gated into the world, that is it physically walks into the world via a Gate such as the Dark Portal it dies perminantly when killed.

This is very simular to how the mechanics work in Dungeons and Dragons.

1. If you summon a Fiend (Demon or Devil) and you kill it you merely banish it from the Prime for a set amount of time. It returns to either the Abyss (demons) or the Nine Hells of Baator (devils).

2. If the Fiend is brought in to the Prime by a Gate spell and killed it dies for real.

3. If you kill a Fiend on it's homeplane it is killed perminantly.

I haven't checked my WCRPG Manual of Monsters but I do believe it's simular there too.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:35 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
Also, they can repair their lore slaughter with Archimonde. It's not so hard.
What lore slaughter with Archimonde!?!
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:38 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
What lore slaughter with Archimonde!?!
I think he means the Battle of Mt. Hyjal that we do in the Caverns of Time. Which by the way doesn't really happen according to Drysc.

"It's a "time pocket" if you will. There's no intended link to the Infinite Dragonflight or their dastardly deeds of altered timeways, and you're not literally interacting with history. It's simply a way for players to experience some of the larger moments in Warcraft history, and admittedly the Mount Hyjal instance isn't really linked to the world for any rhyme or reason. The timeway presented itself, it's an amazing opportunity to be there and experience such a major event, and Archimonde drops phat purples." - Drysc



"Ok, so by that reasoning, wouldn't BM and DK just be "time pockets" that have no real bearing on history also? I mean, they're in the same place, controlled by the same faction....

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Old 02-13-2008, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post

"The Caverns of Time are a strange and complex place, and I don't suspect we will ever be able to fully understand the complex goings on inside them." - Drysc
Translation: We're not going to bother explaining it. You guys wouldn't understand it even if we tried. Not that we gave it that much thought, but you know what? Go raid something.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:04 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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I thought it an interesting thread, and thought we could maby discuss it further..?

yeah, yeah, necro blabla, i know! Bring it on with the flaming
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:06 PM
Thornby Thornby is offline

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Thou should not use the cursed skill of necromancy without reason.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:27 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornby View Post
Thou should not use the cursed skill of necromancy without reason.
Reason? I just want to know more about this, it looks like the thread just died and was forgotten before they came to any conclusion, which is sad, cause it is a really good topic...
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:36 PM
Ovid Ovid is offline

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when the burning crusade returns as the primary bad guys for an expansion (or major content patch at least) we can look forward to fighting illidan without the left over night elf parts, manneroth/magtheridon tag team, and archimonde in one raid wing...

i want to run that raid.

to see major demon figures return in new forms with new abilities would allow the content to have some freshness while also allowing the player to feel the great threat posed by the burning legion is that, as long as sargeras exists, their defeat is only temporary.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:39 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovid View Post
when the burning crusade returns as the primary bad guys for an expansion (or major content patch at least) we can look forward to fighting illidan without the left over night elf parts, manneroth/magtheridon tag team, and archimonde in one raid wing...

i want to run that raid.

to see major demon figures return in new forms with new abilities would allow the content to have some freshness while also allowing the player to feel the great threat posed by the burning legion is that, as long as sargeras exists, their defeat is only temporary.
I would rather have them come up with NEW bad-guys, instead of having the old ones miraculously survive or be revived in some way...Im getting tired of the whole burning legion actually...Can't they just make up some new enemy?
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:41 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't know why but I really like fighting the Old Gods.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:42 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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the old gods make the burning legion look like boy scouts
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:46 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumShadow843 View Post
the old gods make the burning legion look like boy scouts
Made my day^^ xD
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Old 02-14-2010, 05:26 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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So I see a lot of apprentice necromancers lately?
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Old 02-14-2010, 07:07 PM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Sounds like the movie Phantasm where the Tall Man keeps coming back because he has like an assembly line of extra Tall Mans or something?
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Old 02-14-2010, 08:46 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Quote:
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So I see a lot of apprentice necromancers lately?
after all, I am Nozdormu
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Old 02-14-2010, 08:55 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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What pisses me off about the whole shit with time instances of historic events is that there is perfect time for some great story maybe we could get it wrong for once >.< , i mean we dont even get much assistance and we dont really know everything about Time travel.

If there was a instance were we got it wrong then went back in time with everything changed, then that could be a instance within a instance (like the whole ICC business to clarify Lore).

That way we could clarify it so when we go into the Caverns of Time to go in time to the instance we failed in for the 2nd time we infact get it right.

This then could leave a whole in time for a NEW huge Evil boss on the same lines as Deathwing that had gained power in the alternate univerce that we accidentaly created.
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:04 PM
Nozdormu Nozdormu is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ku'ja View Post
What pisses me off about the whole shit with time instances of historic events is that there is perfect time for some great story maybe we could get it wrong for once >.< , i mean we dont even get much assistance and we dont really know everything about Time travel.

If there was a instance were we got it wrong then went back in time with everything changed, then that could be a instance within a instance (like the whole ICC business to clarify Lore).

That way we could clarify it so when we go into the Caverns of Time to go in time to the instance we failed in for the 2nd time we infact get it right.

This then could leave a whole in time for a NEW huge Evil boss on the same lines as Deathwing that had gained power in the alternate univerce that we accidentaly created.
I agree with you^^

Btw, your signature if flattering
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