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  #51  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:26 PM
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But you have only two real options of vote, right?
I voted for the Rent is Too Damn High Party, what are you talking about?
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  #52  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:33 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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I voted for the Rent is Too Damn High Party, what are you talking about?
Emphasis on the "Real" as in 2 viable options that will actually get in someplace of power
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Old 02-22-2011, 06:59 PM
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This thread...confuses me. Are people deliberately exaggerating to make their points, or are we just having fun with hyperbole? Because the way I see it, yes, the United States has problems and a lot of what politicians are saying in public is embarrassingly silly, and yes, there is a lot one can be critical of the United States for, but the USA is still a great place to live for many people and its citizens have many freedoms and rights that people around the world still struggle (and die) for. Moreover, despite all the rancor and ridiculousness in American politics the country has still made forward progress in recent years on a number of fronts such as healthcare, food safety, financial regulation, nuclear proliferation, and even the environment. True, a lot of this progress seems to be of the "one step back, two steps forward" variety, but however imperfectly challenges have been tackled.

Do I wish things were better? Of course I do, and I'm studying to go into a public service career in the hope of making positive contributions to society and hopefully making _something_ better. Could things be worse? Certainly, and while fear of how bad things could be otherwise should not (in most cases) be used as an excuse to not strive for something better it can provide perspective, and there are a lot of privileges I enjoy because of my American citizenship. I am thankful for this and grateful to God for letting me be born where I was and as who I am, and while I might be naively optimistic I like to think that the hope for a better future is still real and achievable. I mean, just look at what the people of Egypt accomplished a few days ago. A year ago, who would have thought that President Mubarak would be overthrown by a nonviolent popular protest movement? The Egyptian people took action and they now have the opportunity to create a freer nation for themselves. This is inspiring and shows the power people have to change themselves and the world around them if they try.

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that life goes on, and when the robot overlords come or alien conquerors arrive I'll try to make the most of it.

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Just because the likes of Pelosi and Obama haven't achieved total success doesn't mean they aren't flaming leftist liberals.

If they had their way, they'd legalize everything from hard drugs to marriage with sheep.
But what about Demon Sheep?

More seriously, if you believe President Obama is a flaming leftist liberal then I'd argue that your perspective is skewed, Bolvar. I can't speak for the man himself since I don't read minds, but while some of the policies he's advocated are left of center few are genuinely radical on the leftist side of the political spectrum. If you want to see radical leftism, I'd recommend reading The Progressive.

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That wouldn't change anything.

You'd end up with a philosopher-king who was a humanist, and later a robot running some gooshy version of MacOS.
GLaDOS for global dictator? She has cake!
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  #54  
Old 02-22-2011, 07:55 PM
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True, a lot of this progress seems to be of the "one step back, two steps forward" variety, but however imperfectly challenges have been tackled.
Are you implying that the United States is a Leninist state?!!?!?!?!?!!?I cannot resist to make a Lenin joke when I can, sorry.

But insensible and silly jokes aside despite my participation in this debate has been null, and I plan to keep that way despite this post, I have been following the debate here. And so I think, in my opinion, that your view of this situation and opinion of the situation has been the most sensible and serious of them all.

I also wanted to tell you that I am glad to see there is people that think like you do in the United States. I believe the same, the people have the power to change this world if they try, thank you for thinking the same.

Oh and by the way: The cake is a lie.
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:09 PM
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Really, comparing pre-Reagan archaeoconservatives to post-Reagan neoconservatives is like comparing apples to oranges. There are still archaeocons in Government for the most part, just like there were budding neocons before Reagan, but the makeup of the American conservative movement changed heavily over the past 30 years and it's poised for another change. Part of the reason why the Democrats are losing right now is that they are essentially stuck in the 90s and are more homogeneous than the Republicans at the moment.
It's not that cut-and-dried.

There's Goldwater Republicans, Reagan Republicans, Neocons, Tea Partiers, Moral Majority Republicans... the list goes on and on. They share a few similar values, but mostly, they're in the same party because they can stomach the differences of the other factions.

Democrats are no different. Clinton Democrats, Progressive Democrats, Blue Dog Democrats, Greens, et cetera... Same song, different verse.
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  #56  
Old 02-23-2011, 12:36 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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So today a gonzo reporter calls up Scott Walker impersonating David Koch. Not only was Walker stupid and vapid enough to fall for this trick, he revealed his plan to trick Democrats to coming back to the state to vote to him, and ADMITTED that his staff had discussed sending agitators into the crowd in the capitol. Jesus fucking Christ. And I'm waiting for someone to defend the Gov. of the state of Wisconsin being at the beck and call of a billionaire corporate pay master. The point is not that the person impersonating Koch was pulling a prank. The point is that Walker THOUGHT it was Koch, and felt obligated to not only take the call, but reveal his entire strategy to him. Wisconsin is now in the control of a unique American brand of Fascism.
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:45 PM
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That reminds me- as I've said before, my father is a reporter, and one with a deep admiration for Hunter Thompson. In the day and age of biased, corporate-and-state run media, I really do hope we may have a golden age for gonzo journalism es enabled by blogs and the like.
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:47 PM
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That reminds me- as I've said before, my father is a reporter, and one with a deep admiration for Hunter Thompson. In the day and age of biased, corporate-and-state run media, I really do hope we may have a golden age for gonzo journalism es enabled by blogs and the like.
Hunter Thompson was not only a lunatic genius, but he had the courage of his convictions to actually off himself when he no longer saw any enjoyment in his life.
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:58 PM
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So today a gonzo reporter calls up Scott Walker impersonating David Koch. Not only was Walker stupid and vapid enough to fall for this trick, he revealed his plan to trick Democrats to coming back to the state to vote to him, and ADMITTED that his staff had discussed sending agitators into the crowd in the capitol. Jesus fucking Christ. And I'm waiting for someone to defend the Gov. of the state of Wisconsin being at the beck and call of a billionaire corporate pay master. The point is not that the person impersonating Koch was pulling a prank. The point is that Walker THOUGHT it was Koch, and felt obligated to not only take the call, but reveal his entire strategy to him. Wisconsin is now in the control of a unique American brand of Fascism.
It's cute how you act like your beloved Democrats aren't even worse. Filth like Pelosi and Obama have been caught openly admitting to manufacturing and taking advantage of a public crisis to push their agenda and have blatantly treated the American Constitution as if it were entirely irrelevant to their ambition to shove a socialist government down our throats, and you're pissed at this?

So, what do you have here? A governor who wants to find some way to break up a riot and get Democrats BACK in the state, where they're legally supposed to be in the first place? A governor who wants to break up the illicit demonstrations being held on the taxpayer's dime? (and, it is the people of Wisconsin paying for these fools to protest - since all these union employees enjoy paid sick leave)

What about the fact that union employees are collaborating with doctors to commit fraud with fake sick notes? What about the fact that state law requires lawmakers to appear in session, and the Democrats boldly and openly break that law?

Nevermind the fact that the reporting you cite was committed fraudulently.

No, you don't give a shit. You've got a raging hard-on for the Koch family for some reason. Doesn't matter that your boys are breaking the law. Nope. Not one bit. Their fraud is justified for the cause, right?
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:14 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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So, what do you have here? A governor who wants to find some way to break up a riot and get Democrats BACK in the state, where they're legally supposed to be in the first place? A governor who wants to break up the illicit demonstrations being held on the taxpayer's dime? (and, it is the people of Wisconsin paying for these fools to protest - since all these union employees enjoy paid sick leave)

What about the fact that union employees are collaborating with doctors to commit fraud with fake sick notes? What about the fact that state law requires lawmakers to appear in session, and the Democrats boldly and openly break that law?

Nevermind the fact that the reporting you cite was committed fraudulently.
Illicit demonstrations?? That's the thing that really gets me about the right. When the Tea Party gets together on the National Mall they are freedom loving patriots who are trying to save their country. When Democrats gather in THEIR state capitol, it's illicit anarchy. Did state workers in Wisconsin stop paying taxes all of a sudden?? Are they less than full citizens because they teach 1st grade or sweep floors at a school?? Shit, many of them probably don't even own property, maybe they shouldn't even be allowed to vote.


There is no rioting going on in the Wisconsin capitol, it's a protest, as time-honroed a tradition as Democracy itself. The state police have gone out of their way to COMPLIMENT the crowd on their behavior. These are facts. There hasn't been one incident of violence or destruction. And whatever Obama or Pelosi may or may not have done (let's accept your premise for the sake of this argument) the fact remains that Scott Walker, through his own incompetence, hubris, and idiocy, THOUGHT he was talking to one of the major donors to his campaign, felt the need to give a 20 minute rundown of his strategy, and revealed himself to be nothing more than a puppet for oligarchy, and was willing to send in people from his own side to ratfuck the protestors. HE has no right to tell the citizens of Wisconsin to go anywhere. That is their capitol. Fuck.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:04 PM
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Illicit demonstrations?? That's the thing that really gets me about the right. When the Tea Party gets together on the National Mall they are freedom loving patriots who are trying to save their country. When Democrats gather in THEIR state capitol, it's illicit anarchy. Did state workers in Wisconsin stop paying taxes all of a sudden?? Are they less than full citizens because they teach 1st grade or sweep floors at a school?? Shit, many of them probably don't even own property, maybe they shouldn't even be allowed to vote.


There is no rioting going on in the Wisconsin capitol, it's a protest, as time-honroed a tradition as Democracy itself. The state police have gone out of their way to COMPLIMENT the crowd on their behavior. These are facts. There hasn't been one incident of violence or destruction. And whatever Obama or Pelosi may or may not have done (let's accept your premise for the sake of this argument) the fact remains that Scott Walker, through his own incompetence, hubris, and idiocy, THOUGHT he was talking to one of the major donors to his campaign, felt the need to give a 20 minute rundown of his strategy, and revealed himself to be nothing more than a puppet for oligarchy, and was willing to send in people from his own side to ratfuck the protestors. HE has no right to tell the citizens of Wisconsin to go anywhere. That is their capitol. Fuck.
Did you even read what I wrote?

It's illicit because most of the protesters are union employees who are taking paid sick leave to protest.

That's a violation of their employment contract. And since they're defrauding the public in the process, it's also illegal.

What's more, is that licensed physicians are setting up booths at the capitol to sign fake sick notes so these folks can get away with it.

That's also fraud.

See, when you work for a union, and you want to take time off to do something personal, you have to give your employer adequate notice and get the time off approved.

Otherwise, you have to call in sick. And you need a note from a physician.

That's the illicit part. If the protest were only taking place on the weekend or after business hours, or were organized two weeks ahead of time and the union employees were taking personal time, I'd have absolutely no problem with it.

The other problem I have is with the Democratic lawmakers fleeing the state.

News flash: We live in a Republic. Elections have consequences. You don't get to just screw the whole process and piss all over democracy because you don't like the outcome... you follow the process. Take your medicine, and if you're really mad, organize a recall, or vote the officials out at the next opportunity, and repeal the bad legislation.

You know, sort of like how the Republicans are treating Obamacare.

Don't give me this patriotic right to assemble bullshit, and compare it to a tea party rally held over the weekend and attended by people who showed up on their own personal time, planned months in advance, and without anyone having to forge a sick note.

This whole situation is one big fat immature temper tantrum by the liberal left, and you know it.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:12 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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Did you even read what I wrote?

It's illicit because most of the protesters are union employees who are taking paid sick leave to protest.

That's a violation of their employment contract. And since they're defrauding the public in the process, it's also illegal.

What's more, is that licensed physicians are setting up booths at the capitol to sign fake sick notes so these folks can get away with it.

That's also fraud.

See, when you work for a union, and you want to take time off to do something personal, you have to give your employer adequate notice and get the time off approved.

Otherwise, you have to call in sick. And you need a note from a physician.

That's the illicit part. If the protest were only taking place on the weekend or after business hours, or were organized two weeks ahead of time and the union employees were taking personal time, I'd have absolutely no problem with it.

The other problem I have is with the Democratic lawmakers fleeing the state.

News flash: We live in a Republic. Elections have consequences. You don't get to just screw the whole process and piss all over democracy because you don't like the outcome... you follow the process. Take your medicine, and if you're really mad, organize a recall, or vote the officials out at the next opportunity, and repeal the bad legislation.

You know, sort of like how the Republicans are treating Obamacare.

Don't give me this patriotic right to assemble bullshit, and compare it to a tea party rally held over the weekend and attended by people who showed up on their own personal time, planned months in advance, and without anyone having to forge a sick note.

This whole situation is one big fat immature temper tantrum by the liberal left, and you know it.

Oh christ, because no one in the history of human civilization has ever called in sick when they felt fine. To maybe watch a NCAA tournament game, or just because they didn't feel like going in that day. "Mental heath" days are as American as apple pie, everyone has done it, and no one feels the slightest bit guilty about it. Yes, I'm sure all those Wisconsin school children are going to be at a complete acadmemic disadvantage because they missed 2 days of school. Wisconsin loses 3 times those days because of snowstorms each year.

It is not at all stunning that you would consider the right to assemble "bullshit", because you really don't believe that public workers, or anyone else who receives benefits or payment from the governement deserves any rights whatsoever. In your view they should be grateful for what they have and STFU about it.

You would also be interested to know that ABRAHAM LINCOLN, raging Communist that he was, once jumped out the window of the Illinois state house to trigger the exact same effect as the Wisconsin Democrats are.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:21 PM
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You would also be interested to know that ABRAHAM LINCOLN, raging Communist that he was, once jumped out the window of the Illinois state house to trigger the exact same effect as the Wisconsin Democrats are.
I suddenly want to draw a picture of that with a caption like "Fuck this shit, I'm outta here" or "ABANDON THREAD".
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:42 PM
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Oh christ, because no one in the history of human civilization has ever called in sick when they felt fine. To maybe watch a NCAA tournament game, or just because they didn't feel like going in that day. "Mental heath" days are as American as apple pie, everyone has done it, and no one feels the slightest bit guilty about it. Yes, I'm sure all those Wisconsin school children are going to be at a complete acadmemic disadvantage because they missed 2 days of school. Wisconsin loses 3 times those days because of snowstorms each year.

It is not at all stunning that you would consider the right to assemble "bullshit", because you really don't believe that public workers, or anyone else who receives benefits or payment from the governement deserves any rights whatsoever. In your view they should be grateful for what they have and STFU about it.

You would also be interested to know that ABRAHAM LINCOLN, raging Communist that he was, once jumped out the window of the Illinois state house to trigger the exact same effect as the Wisconsin Democrats are.
Even Lincoln (who was, not at the time of the incident, but eventually a Republican) knew it was wrong, too. He was embarrassed by the incident and never spoke of it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=J7U...page&q&f=false

And comparing mass insurrection to someone copping a sick day because they're hungover or want to go fishing is pretty damned silly. This isn't even remotely the same thing. It's organized fraud, not some petty infraction. Apple pie, my ass.

But, go ahead. Keep trying to justify the liberal temper-tantrum. I'm sure you'll find some way to connect it to Ronald Reagan next...
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:51 PM
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Even Lincoln (who was, not at the time of the incident, but eventually a Republican) knew it was wrong, too. He was embarrassed by the incident and never spoke of it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=J7U...page&q&f=false

And comparing mass insurrection to someone copping a sick day because they're hungover or want to go fishing is pretty damned silly. This isn't even remotely the same thing. It's organized fraud, not some petty infraction. Apple pie, my ass.

But, go ahead. Keep trying to justify the liberal temper-tantrum. I'm sure you'll find some way to connect it to Ronald Reagan next...
How is citizens protesting something they oppose at the state capitol mass inserrection??? Did the teachers skip out on a few days of school when they weren't sick to protest for their future. Yeah, they did. Should we fire them for it??? Should we lay off the entire Madsion school district?? Who were they defrauding exactly?? The almighty "taxpayers"?? Fine, dock them two days pay, I'm sure they will gladly concede to it (since they have already agreed to every solitary demand Walker has made of them, and are only asking to keep collective bargaining rights).

Edit: The only thing I'll say about Reagen is that in Walker's little chat with the fake Koch, he let it be know that he believed part of the reason the Soviet Union fell is because Reagen fired the air traffic controllers, which has to be the most bizarre view of history I have encountered in some time.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:38 PM
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Even Lincoln (who was, not at the time of the incident, but eventually a Republican) knew it was wrong, too. He was embarrassed by the incident and never spoke of it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=J7U...page&q&f=false

And comparing mass insurrection to someone copping a sick day because they're hungover or want to go fishing is pretty damned silly. This isn't even remotely the same thing. It's organized fraud, not some petty infraction. Apple pie, my ass.

But, go ahead. Keep trying to justify the liberal temper-tantrum. I'm sure you'll find some way to connect it to Ronald Reagan next...
You know that the Republican party of Lincoln is not the same ideologically, yeah? Abolitionism was a liberal platform.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:57 PM
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Edit: The only thing I'll say about Reagen is that in Walker's little chat with the fake Koch, he let it be know that he believed part of the reason the Soviet Union fell is because Reagen fired the air traffic controllers, which has to be the most bizarre view of history I have encountered in some time.

Recently declassified by the CIA - a phone tap from sometime in August, 1987


Erich Honecker (East German Head of State): Hello?

Mikhail Gorbachev (General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union): Erich... it's Mikey.

Erich: Mikey! So glad you called. We didn't get our last shipment of vodka. What's up with that?

Mikhail: I drank it.

Erich: You... drank it?

Mikhail: Da.

Erich: Over 800 litres...?

Mikhail: Da. You heard the speech?

Erich: What speech?

Mikhail: Reagan's speech, you dolt.

Erich: Oh. Ha ha. "Tear down this wall." Yeah, like that'll ever happen.

Mikhail: It might.

Erich: Never! The Soviet Union is indomitable!

Mikhail: Erich, I'm scared. I mean, this President once had the balls to fire 11,000 air traffic controllers at the peak of the American summer travel season.

Erich: ...

Mikhail: Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't just knock down the wall while he was right there at the Brandenberg Gate. I mean, who could stop him?




Yeah. Don't fuck with Ronald Reagan.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12292.html
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:59 PM
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You know that the Republican party of Lincoln is not the same ideologically, yeah? Abolitionism was a liberal platform.
And yet, the Democrats remain anti-minority to this day.

The KKK was founded by Democrats, and many southern Democrats were active members.

Meanwhile, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a REPUBLICAN.

To this day, it's the Democrats that support Margaret Sanger's dream of anti-minority eugenics.

Yeah. We Republicans really started hating on blacks after Lincoln got shot.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:03 PM
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I just want to understand if your joking or not Bolvar. Are you suggesting that the leader of the Soviet Union was INTIMIDATED because Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers?? I just want to get you on the record here, because I can't tell. Keep in mind that Gorbachev is the leader of this country and they have a rather large weapons aresenal. Is the implication that if Reagan had the balls to fire some union workers that he wouldn't hestitate to nuke Russia, because that is insane.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:06 PM
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And yet, the Democrats remain anti-minority to this day.

The KKK was founded by Democrats, and many southern Democrats were active members.

Meanwhile, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a REPUBLICAN.

To this day, it's the Democrats that support Margaret Sanger's dream of anti-minority eugenics.

Yeah. We Republicans really started hating on blacks after Lincoln got shot.
If that's true then it seems the tables have shifted
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:11 PM
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I just want to understand if your joking or not Bolvar. Are you suggesting that the leader of the Soviet Union was INTIMIDATED because Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers?? I just want to get you on the record here, because I can't tell. Keep in mind that Gorbachev is the leader of this country and they have a rather large weapons aresenal. Is the implication that if Reagan had the balls to fire some union workers that he wouldn't hestitate to nuke Russia, because that is insane.
No, I'm totally serious. That was absolutely a real CIA phonetap from 1987.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:11 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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And yet, the Democrats remain anti-minority to this day.

The KKK was founded by Democrats, and many southern Democrats were active members.

Meanwhile, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a REPUBLICAN.

To this day, it's the Democrats that support Margaret Sanger's dream of anti-minority eugenics.

Yeah. We Republicans really started hating on blacks after Lincoln got shot.

You are really out of your mind on this one Bolvar, and you know how dishonest your being. The Southern Democrats of the 50s and 60s (Dixiecrats) were the racists, you are 100% right about that. What you purposefully leave out is that every single one of them besides Robert Byrd joined the Republican party within 10 years of the Civil Rights Act being past, and by the time Nixon was elected they had nearly complete control over the party. Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms etc. Yes they were Democrats, and they left the party and joined the Republicans because a Democratic President passed the Civil Rights Act. LBJ said famously at the time (and I know you know about this) that when he signed it he was "signing away the south for Democrats for a generation." It was actually longer than that (to this day). But those Dixiecrats have ZERO relation to the modern Democratic Party, and any suggestion that ALL of them wouldn't today choose the Republican Party is a historical farce.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:48 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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You are really out of your mind on this one Bolvar, and you know how dishonest your being. The Southern Democrats of the 50s and 60s (Dixiecrats) were the racists, you are 100% right about that. What you purposefully leave out is that every single one of them besides Robert Byrd joined the Republican party within 10 years of the Civil Rights Act being past, and by the time Nixon was elected they had nearly complete control over the party. Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms etc. Yes they were Democrats, and they left the party and joined the Republicans because a Democratic President passed the Civil Rights Act. LBJ said famously at the time (and I know you know about this) that when he signed it he was "signing away the south for Democrats for a generation." It was actually longer than that (to this day). But those Dixiecrats have ZERO relation to the modern Democratic Party, and any suggestion that ALL of them wouldn't today choose the Republican Party is a historical farce.
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR WAS A REPUBLICAN.

And that shit drives you crazy.

Also, you really exaggerated your gonzo journalism story:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gov-s...ry?id=12980381

And you call me dishonest.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:56 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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MARTIN LUTHER KING JR WAS A REPUBLICAN.

And that shit drives you crazy.

Also, you really exaggerated your gonzo journalism story:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gov-s...ry?id=12980381

And you call me dishonest.
How did I exaggerate it?? Walker THOUGHT he was talking to David Koch. He admitted it. The fact that he wasn't doesn't change the fact that what Walker said to him was said as if he was talking to Koch. Yeah, it was a prank, but he believed it (which is stunning in and of itself). The real issue is why someone like David Koch, a billionaire plutocrat who is not even a Wisconsin resident, would be able to command 20 minutes of the Governor's time on a phone call.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:00 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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MARTIN LUTHER KING JR WAS A REPUBLICAN.

And that shit drives you crazy.

Also, you really exaggerated your gonzo journalism story:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gov-s...ry?id=12980381

And you call me dishonest.
I'm not talking about the republicans of the past

That to me just shows a conflict of interests and he should stand down from his post
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