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  #10526  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:04 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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*gestures to Marthen and PJ*

See, this is the stuff I'm talking about, it feels like neither of you actually want to have a discussion, you just wanna shit on people who don't think like you and strawman us to make us seem crazy and evil so we're guilted into being like you and not allowed to have our own opinions.
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  #10527  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:13 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You are both confusing deprogramming (Removal of brainwashing) with brainwashing.
No. You just do not or do not want to understand that deprogramming can be misused to remove ideas, ideals, beliefs that are by no means born out of brainwashing. It can be used properly, just how Grackle suggested, but since the risk for misuse is particularly high, for it is very, very complicated to draw the line appropriately, it should be used with outmost care, individually and specifically. Certainly not en masse.
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  #10528  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:13 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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*gestures to Marthen and PJ*

See, this is the stuff I'm talking about, it feels like neither of you actually want to have a discussion, you just wanna shit on people who don't think like you and strawman us to make us seem crazy and evil so we're guilted into being like you and not allowed to have our own opinions.
You need to explain how deprogramming is different than just a different kind of brainwashing.

Are people that support capitalism brainwashed? The communists thought so. A lot of atheists think Christians are brainwashed. Turning the former into communists or atheists would be considered a form of deprogramming. What do you think some foreign countries do to prisoners of war to try to use them for propaganda purposes or get them to betray their country?

How are you determining what is the right thing someone is supposed to believe?
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  #10529  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:20 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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No. You just do not or do not want to understand that deprogramming can be misused to remove ideas, ideals, beliefs that are by no means born out of brainwashing. It can be used properly, just how Grackle suggested, but since the risk for misuse is particularly high, for it is very, very complicated to draw the line appropriately, it should be used with outmost care, individually and specifically. Certainly not en masse.
I think we're having a vernacular hangup here, deprogramming is the removal of brainwashing, if someone claims they're deprogramming but the subject is someone who isn't part of a cult or whatever initially, then what they're actually doing is just brainwashing, that is how I've always understood it.

But even so I don't feel that excuses you bringing up victims of Soviet brutality. I don't have anything to do with that, I've openly decried it. It just feels like you wanted to insult and guilt me and I don't appreciate that.

I'd like to understand what you were -trying- to do by bringing that up.

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You need to explain how deprogramming is different than just a different kind of brainwashing.
No, what you need to explain is why I should bother talking to you when you make posts like that last one where you talk about guilting white people into hating themselves, with the apparent intent of making me feel guilty and hating myself.

What were you trying to do? Just vent? Because isn't that the kind of hyper-emotional tribalistic BS we're trying to get off the forums?
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  #10530  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:27 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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No, what you need to explain is why I should bother talking to you when you make posts like that last one where you talk about guilting white people into hating themselves, with the apparent intent of making me feel guilty and hating myself.

What were you trying to do? Just vent? Because isn't that the kind of hyper-emotional tribalistic BS we're trying to get off the forums?
What are you talking about? I said some people. Your name isn't some people. There is a lot of self-loathing and self-flagellation in regards to being white or supporting traditional western values of freedom. It is neurotic.

That NSA contractor that was arrested for leaking information had posted that "whiteness is terrorism." We had a white person pretend to be black and head up a civil rights organization. There are a lot of white people that are indoctrinated to think less of themselves. It is like women that join ISIS or something.

I have met men that seem to hate men. It isn't empowering to me or introspective to them, it is just pathetic.
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  #10531  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:27 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think we're having a vernacular hangup here, deprogramming is the removal of brainwashing, if someone claims they're deprogramming but the subject is someone who isn't part of a cult or whatever initially, then what they're actually doing is just brainwashing, that is how I've always understood it.

But even so I don't feel that excuses you bringing up victims of Soviet brutality. I don't have anything to do with that, I've openly decried it. It just feels like you wanted to insult and guilt me and I don't appreciate that.

I'd like to understand what you were -trying- to do by bringing that up.
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*gestures to Marthen and PJ*

See, this is the stuff I'm talking about, it feels like neither of you actually want to have a discussion, you just wanna shit on people who don't think like you and strawman us to make us seem crazy and evil so we're guilted into being like you and not allowed to have our own opinions.

Perhaps if you stopped getting overly sensitive and immediately defensive, you'd see how it is you yourself who builts these strawmen. Like the whole "defending Russia" comment. It was nowhere implied, your sensitive self simply misinterpreted it so, which in turn led to a strawman of your own. It is not exactly my fault a simple, even if sarcastically put, example of how deprogramming can be misused is mistaken for a personal attack.

And for the record, no, I was not actually attempting to start a discussion. I simply reacted to a particular wording I found mindboggling.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-18-2017 at 09:30 AM..
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  #10532  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:33 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Perhaps if you stopped getting overly sensitive and immediately defensive, you'd see how it is you yourself who builts these strawmen. Like the whole "defending Russia" comment. It was nowhere implied, your sensitive self simply misinterpreted it so, which in turn led to a strawman of your own. It is not exactly my fault a simple, even if sarcastically put, example of how deprogramming can be misused is mistaken for a personal attack.
@PJ too.

From my point of view suddenly switching to very general examples of atrocities committed feels like a thinly veiled insult, a way to force someone to be defensive of a point they don't necessarily hold, if that's not what was meant in either case, and I was overly defensive, then you have my apologies.

But do both of you see how that could be construed as inflammatory? How would either of you feel if I continuously brought up Trump in a debate where he was only tangentially related?

Regardless, let's backtrack, Do we all acknowledge Cantus isn't proposing that we kidnap conservatives off the street and brainwash/deprogram them to be liberal? yes?
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  #10533  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:41 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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@PJ too.

From my point of view suddenly switching to very general examples of atrocities committed feels like a thinly veiled insult, a way to force someone to be defensive of a point they don't necessarily hold, if that's not what was meant in either case, and I was overly defensive, then you have my apologies.

But do both of you see how that could be construed as inflammatory? How would either of you feel if I continuously brought up Trump in a debate where he was only tangentially related?

Regardless, let's backtrack, Do we all acknowledge Cantus isn't proposing that we kidnap conservatives off the street and brainwash/deprogram them to be liberal? yes?
I don't know why you would think I would thinly veil insults if I intended to make them when in the past I have been very blunt. I promise you honesty and I honestly like you.

We are giving examples of society attempting to deprogram people or the historic significance of that word. Cantus has called me an extremist before and probably wouldn't mind deprogramming my sense of patriotism or my criticism of the DC bureaucracy. I could see how it could easily come from changes in curriculum in school, during prison, or coerced at colleges or universities to make people feel a certain way.
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  #10534  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:46 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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We are giving examples of society attempting to deprogram people or the historic significance of that word. Cantus has called me an extremist before and probably wouldn't mind deprogramming my sense of patriotism or my criticism of the DC bureaucracy.

I could see how it could easily come from changes in curriculum in school, during prison, or coerced at colleges or universities to make people feel a certain way.
I feel you are demonizing Cantus there.


There are absolutely valid concerns about all of those areas held by folks of all political stripes.
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  #10535  
Old 06-18-2017, 10:30 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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There are absolutely valid concerns about all of those areas held by folks of all political stripes.
But I already think our education system is all kinds of messed up.
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  #10536  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:14 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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But I already think our education system is all kinds of messed up.
I don't think we agree on the ways it's messed up, but it definitely is
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  #10537  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:25 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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No. You just do not or do not want to understand that deprogramming can be misused to remove ideas, ideals, beliefs that are by no means born out of brainwashing. It can be used properly, just how Grackle suggested, but since the risk for misuse is particularly high, for it is very, very complicated to draw the line appropriately, it should be used with outmost care, individually and specifically. Certainly not en masse.
I may have been misusing "reprogramming". I was treating it more as... exposure to current common thought.

Brainwashing gets thrown around as a term, but there are different levels. There's hard, camp-style nightmare brainwashing. And then, there's the accusation that if I'm teaching my children to be religious and bringing them to church, and presenting my family's belief system to them like any known fact, then I'm "brainwashing" them.

For such a soft example of "brainwashing", I'd expect society's efforts to "deprogram" my poison be equally soft - ie, exposing them to alternative ideas and viewpoints. Iron sharpens iron, and all that.

Anything involving harder methods? I'd naturally fight against that.
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  #10538  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:43 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I may have been misusing "reprogramming". I was treating it more as... exposure to current common thought.

Brainwashing gets thrown around as a term, but there are different levels. There's hard, camp-style nightmare brainwashing. And then, there's the accusation that if I'm teaching my children to be religious and bringing them to church, and presenting my family's belief system to them like any known fact, then I'm "brainwashing" them.

For such a soft example of "brainwashing", I'd expect society's efforts to "deprogram" my poison be equally soft - ie, exposing them to alternative ideas and viewpoints. Iron sharpens iron, and all that.

Anything involving harder methods? I'd naturally fight against that.
I wouldn't call that brainwashing but I agree that exposure to alternate ideas is perfectly reasonable, no one's suggesting dragging people into camps and 'deprogramming' them that way.
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  #10539  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:09 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't think we agree on the ways it's messed up, but it definitely is
Why not decentralize it then?

If I want to focus more on STEM and vocational school while making the liberal arts and humanities more accessible(K-12, online, museums, ect...) then I shouldn't have to fight this federal bureaucracy. A monopoly on information is a bad thing. Our current system trains people who can't contribute unless it is within academia or the government and I think it fuels the growth of jobs that don't add value to society. It teaches people what to think instead of how to think and until that monopoly is broken and people question this arrangement it is going to stay that way.
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  #10540  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:13 PM
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I use the term deprogramming in the specific sense of cult or extremist thought. If someone joined the KKK or was part of the Evergreen group, they are essentially part of a cult mindset. They believe that they're superior to another group by birthright or association, and that those who are inferior must bow down to them by any means necessary. They're insular in thought and action, and their actions do not take into account the humanity of those outside the ingroup.

I shouldn't need to define that either. PJ you are nitpicking and casting aspersions as if I didn't just talk about "relative centrists" (both conservative and liberal) banding together to "prevent violence." This is why I have a problem with you, you cannot separate your grudge from my direct and stated intent. You are, by definition, tribal. Ruinshin didn't assume I was talking about deprogramming as if I meant all conservatives, and I doubt Grackle would've seen that as an issue of note had you not immediately assumed my sentiments were malicious. You created a specter of tribalism and used an example you knew would rile up your tribe against those outside it. You created unnecessary conflict.

Now, in any of my examples, did I make an accusation against you or yours? No I pointed out that blaming all Academia was a failure point in an argument we were all fairly together on. That's how these discussions need to occur.

So please, for the love of fucking christ, get over your grudge against me and read the words I use instead of inserting some evil liberal agenda into everything written.
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  #10541  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:26 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I use the term deprogramming in the specific sense of cult or extremist thought. If someone joined the KKK or was part of the Evergreen group, they are essentially part of a cult mindset. They believe that they're superior to another group by birthright or association, and that those who are inferior must bow down to them by any means necessary. They're insular in thought and action, and their actions do not take into account the humanity of those outside the ingroup.

I shouldn't need to define that either. PJ you are nitpicking and casting aspersions as if I didn't just talk about "relative centrists" (both conservative and liberal) banding together to "prevent violence." This is why I have a problem with you, you cannot separate your grudge from my direct and stated intent. You are, by definition, tribal. Ruinshin didn't assume I was talking about deprogramming as if I meant all conservatives, and I doubt Grackle would've seen that as an issue of note had you not immediately assumed my sentiments were malicious. You created a specter of tribalism and used an example you knew would rile up your tribe against those outside it. You created unnecessary conflict.

Now, in any of my examples, did I make an accusation against you or yours? No I pointed out that blaming all Academia was a failure point in an argument we were all fairly together on. That's how these discussions need to occur.

So please, for the love of fucking christ, get over your grudge against me and read the words I use instead of inserting some evil liberal agenda into everything written.
What are you talking about? Talking about the historical misuses of deprogramming isn't tribal. It is a poor choice of words. How is Marthen part of my tribe or any of these people? We have plenty of disagreements. It was actually Marthen that made the post first. You need to focus on the substance of the argument instead of the person.

The very issue with the concept of deprogramming bad thoughts is who gets to determine bad thoughts? You used the term centrists but it is meaningless. A mental gymnast could easily get around that distinction. Real equality and extremism are also interchangeable words. Putin uses extremism to justify censorship. I don't like your definition of extremism.

I rather break up insular communities and go from the salad dish back to the melting pot. Create a sense of pride in the country so people have things to bond over that isn't politics, race, or gender. Create a bigger sense of shared fate and belonging into communities so people actually care about people outside of their institutions.
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  #10542  
Old 06-18-2017, 01:02 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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>People screeching over the word "deprogramming"

Anyways,

Let's go back to that segregation topic, it's not just a one time thing.
SFSU to have Afro-Themed dorms. Oh that's not so bad, their still open to everyone even though they primarily serve black students

University of California Berkley to operate Minority and Black housing.

University of Florida to Offer Black Cultural living Community centered on the "Black Living Experience" Well at least it's not racially segregated.

Emory University to host PoC only social events. Well at least this isn't so bad, we're not putting up "no whites and Jews" signs at social events yet, such progress.
University of Conneticut to establish "Black only" housing for black male students.


MA College to offer identity based housing for students of marginalized groups. There are specific ones for Queers, Students and Women of colour with some non permanent ones for Asians and specifically blacks.

University of California Santa Cruz gives in to demands of protesters to have dormitory for all "African Black Caribbean identified students."

I figured I'd just mention mainly the housing segregation that they're doing I'd be here all day if I went on about the safe spaces for all the varying groups.

God, don't you just love progress?
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  #10543  
Old 06-18-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
>People screeching over the word "deprogramming"

Anyways,

Let's go back to that segregation topic, it's not just a one time thing.
SFSU to have Afro-Themed dorms. Oh that's not so bad, their still open to everyone even though they primarily serve black students

University of California Berkley to operate Minority and Black housing.

University of Florida to Offer Black Cultural living Community centered on the "Black Living Experience" Well at least it's not racially segregated.

Emory University to host PoC only social events. Well at least this isn't so bad, we're not putting up "no whites and Jews" signs at social events yet, such progress.
University of Conneticut to establish "Black only" housing for black male students.


MA College to offer identity based housing for students of marginalized groups. There are specific ones for Queers, Students and Women of colour with some non permanent ones for Asians and specifically blacks.

University of California Santa Cruz gives in to demands of protesters to have dormitory for all "African Black Caribbean identified students."

I figured I'd just mention mainly the housing segregation that they're doing I'd be here all day if I went on about the safe spaces for all the varying groups.

God, don't you just love progress?
I hate the over-emphasis of modern politics/social structures on retaining ethnic homogeneity to the point of exclusion. Don't get me wrong, a certain level of homogeneity is useful to assure cultural survival, but this is just too much. It's not like we're trying to steal cultures here. Insularity is more likely to destroy them when a disaster strikes than if they happen to have other racial/ethnic groups who can carry on and re-transmit the cultural foundations back.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:23 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Americans in general are becoming more insular for some reason. Nobody seems to want to be around people they disagree with. Righties move out into the country to be among their own kind, and lefties do the reverse to be with theirs. The only time these people see an opinion that differs from theirs, it's when they outnumber their opponent 10-to-1 and can just yell louder. That or they see it on facebook and just unfriend the person.
People are living in their own dumb echo chamber hug boxes and are afraid to have reasonable arguments with people because all they know are the talking points pundits tell them and bumper sticker lines associated with their beliefs.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:37 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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I hate the over-emphasis of modern politics/social structures on retaining ethnic homogeneity to the point of exclusion. Don't get me wrong, a certain level of homogeneity is useful to assure cultural survival, but this is just too much. It's not like we're trying to steal cultures here. Insularity is more likely to destroy them when a disaster strikes than if they happen to have other racial/ethnic groups who can carry on and re-transmit the cultural foundations back.
You say that but I can't help but think this is moreso based on an inversion of the segregation era "dangerous blacks" mentality but just with whites.

Needing to protect people from the racism and prejudice of white ppl and free oneself from the white supremacist, racist, patriarchy by decolonizing a space from whiteness.

I really hate that I know their lingo.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:44 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I think we may be underestimating the want of humans to be with people like them. There are reasons why people of the same culture tend to stick together. American history is filled with things like "Chinatown," Irish neighborhoods, Italian neighborhoods, etc.
I can kind of understand people wanting to live around people similar to them instead of being surrounded by a homogenous group that isn't theirs.
I don't see any of the white people complaining about this applying to historically black colleges, either.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:46 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Americans in general are becoming more insular for some reason. Nobody seems to want to be around people they disagree with. Righties move out into the country to be among their own kind, and lefties do the reverse to be with theirs. The only time these people see an opinion that differs from theirs, it's when they outnumber their opponent 10-to-1 and can just yell louder. That or they see it on facebook and just unfriend the person.
People are living in their own dumb echo chamber hug boxes and are afraid to have reasonable arguments with people because all they know are the talking points pundits tell them and bumper sticker lines associated with their beliefs.
Agreed, figuring out what's causing this and how to reverse the trend would be really helpful.

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>People screeching over the word "deprogramming"

Anyways,


God, don't you just love progress?
Segregation is bad, those colleges are doing dumb things.

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Why not decentralize it then?

If I want to focus more on STEM and vocational school while making the liberal arts and humanities more accessible(K-12, online, museums, ect...) then I shouldn't have to fight this federal bureaucracy.

A monopoly on information is a bad thing. Our current system trains people who can't contribute unless it is within academia or the government and I think it fuels the growth of jobs that don't add value to society. It teaches people what to think instead of how to think and until that monopoly is broken and people question this arrangement it is going to stay that way.
Depends on -how- it's decentralized.

That's fine.

Here's where we start to diverge. I don't feel the training is for jobs in Government or Academia, it's the type of baseline that was for factory jobs that don't really exist anymore.

What jobs do you feel don't add value to society?

I agree it mostly teaches what to think, but that varies by region. I also feel it teaches how to think on rare occasions but then stumbles on teaching people how to apply it.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:46 PM
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You say that but I can't help but think this is moreso based on an inversion of the segregation era "dangerous blacks" mentality but just with whites.

Needing to protect people from the racism and prejudice of white ppl and free oneself from the white supremacist, racist, patriarchy by decolonizing a space from whiteness.

I really hate that I know their lingo.
Lingo's different, but the sentiment is the same going back to the dawn of time. "We can only stick around our kind, the Devil's in the other."
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:49 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Brainwashing gets thrown around as a term, but there are different levels. There's hard, camp-style nightmare brainwashing. And then, there's the accusation that if I'm teaching my children to be religious and bringing them to church, and presenting my family's belief system to them like any known fact, then I'm "brainwashing" them.
Which is why I am ultimately wary of deprogramming, it's easy to reinterpret "brainwashing" according to your needs, and deprogramming might then take a turn towards a powerful political tool.

As you might recall, I have some strongly Catholic roots. Czech Austria, southern Moravia, one of the strongest holdouts of this particular denomination within the Czech Lands. Thus, the region where forceful socialist de-christianization occurred most heavily and actively. I won't be speaking of the plight of my parents and other older relatives now, despite having plenty to say, but of us, the children, especially my older siblings, who were already in their early teens during the late eighties. Even though our parents were strongly discouraged from doing so, even as much threatened, we still received spiritual and religious education. And at the same time, the government and its authorities sought to remove that influence, sometimes very forcefully. The attempts to dehonestate Christ, the Church, the pope, attacks against its philosophy, historical revisionism (the Hussite Wars were a favourite tool in doing this), the pioneer camps (the socialist alternative to the Scouts), pushes towards a negative stance towards the faith, all these were present on a daily basis. My brother often recalls a particular experience from one pioneer camp, where they had to write a medium sized text about the darkness of the Church and faith. As you can imagine, doing it wrong had some unpleasant repercussions. And now, this only the eighties, where the situation turned far more relaxed than before. My mother had to endure true anti-indoctrination camps during her youth, especially late teens.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:59 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I may have been misusing "reprogramming". I was treating it more as... exposure to current common thought.
Brainwashing gets thrown around as a term, but there are different levels. There's hard, camp-style nightmare brainwashing. And then, there's the accusation that if I'm teaching my children to be religious and bringing them to church, and presenting my family's belief system to them like any known fact, then I'm "brainwashing" them.
For such a soft example of "brainwashing", I'd expect society's efforts to "deprogram" my poison be equally soft - ie, exposing them to alternative ideas and viewpoints. Iron sharpens iron, and all that.
Anything involving harder methods? I'd naturally fight against that.
I think you just showed why this won't work, actually.
There are a million ways to show that there is absolutely no reason to believe Christianity, Islam, etc are true at all, yet countless people still believe in them even with presented with this. When people come up against evidence to the contrary, they just double-down and argue louder or try to reason it away somehow. The same can be said for just about everything in the world, I guess.
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Last edited by Kakwakas; 06-18-2017 at 02:07 PM..
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