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  #55376  
Old 07-09-2017, 09:49 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Russian spies are flooding the US now that they know there's no consequences to their espionage.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/06/po...706russiaspies
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  #55377  
Old 07-10-2017, 10:04 AM
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Russian spies are flooding the US now that they know there's no consequences to their espionage.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/06/po...706russiaspies
God, fucking, damnit.
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  #55378  
Old 07-10-2017, 04:07 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Yep, gotta be careful or those Ruskies will put LSD in your water to turn your kids commie-gay.

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  #55379  
Old 07-10-2017, 04:52 PM
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Yep, gotta be careful or those Ruskies will put LSD in your water to turn your kids commie-gay.

I don't like Putin but this feels like McCarthyism all over again.
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  #55380  
Old 07-10-2017, 08:33 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'm still feeling a little whiplash from the "Russia is dangerous! / Russia is our friend!" binary switch that happened between the Republican and Democrat elements, which seems to be entirely linked to Trump. It's kind of fascinating.

Remember when Republicans were lambasting Obama for being so soft on Russia, and Democrats were brushing them off as being hawks?
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  #55381  
Old 07-10-2017, 08:53 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I'm still feeling a little whiplash from the "Russia is dangerous! / Russia is our friend!" binary switch that happened between the Republican and Democrat elements, which seems to be entirely linked to Trump. It's kind of fascinating.

Remember when Republicans were lambasting Obama for being so soft on Russia, and Democrats were brushing them off as being hawks?
I just think Trump is being dumb. I don't think he is colluding with Putin. He just has no filter and says dumb things all the time.

Other moves he has made contradict him even being soft on Russia. Trump appointed people who were suspicious of Putin to SecDef and SecState. He increased defense investment in Europe and the NATO Secretary General concurred that he is committed to the alliance. He wants to help make Eastern Europe energy independent of Russia and is selling Poland patriot missiles. Earlier in the year he helped bomb Assad's airfield after he used chemical weapons and when it was suspected he would use them again he told him there would be consequences.

Obama tried to reset relations with Russia and canceled the Polish missile shield. Backed away from his red line on Assad. Divested in the military which emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine. He was even caught offering Putin's predecessor more flexibility after his reelection. Trump's gestures aren't any different than Obama's Iranian deal or his Russian reset. After Obama mocked Romney for wanting to stand up to Russia it is hard for me to take seriously that they actually care. It has just became political expedient to blame their losses on the Russians to try to tar Trump. It doesn't look good when they ignored all these transgressions in the past but when their little organization is harmed by Putin they want to retaliate.

This is one of the main reasons I voted for Clinton who took an entirely different approach than Obama did. I thought it would be a good development for the Democratic party. Trump has turned out to be not as bad as I thought he would be. He is far from perfect especially for me but the people that voted for him are suffering a lot more than I am.
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:13 PM
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Tillerson is the exact opposite of "suspicious of Russia". The original reason Democrats were up in arms was that he's well known to be friends with Putin/Russian Oligarchs, and that was before his confirmation hearings. God knows why anyone believed him when he said he'd be an impartial SecState.

As always, you're making Trump out to be some mastermind when really he's a greedy, narcissistic, half-demented (aka literally has dementia) asshole. Check the leaks on how he chose Mattis, he assumed "Mad Dog" meant the man was some kind of crazed loon instead of a reasonable general.

As to Obama vs. Russia, yet again you completely ignored the context of what the man said afterwards. Obama didn't mean Russia wasn't a threat, he meant it wasn't the main threat. China's a bigger threat to the US, Russia pales in comparison. Doesn't mean Obama didn't do something about it within the bounds of Democracy (aka his entire reasoning for not releasing the FBI info was that it was an election year and it'd look a bit Dictator-like for him to talk about it...aka it was a rock and a hard place moment). Afterwards though, he released info on Russian interference and put a fuckton of sanctions on Russia, which Trump immediately tried to roll back.

So yeah, everything you just said has no bearing in reality. Are you reading Breitbart again?
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  #55383  
Old 07-10-2017, 09:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I have never read Breitbart before. Everything I said is reality. The Democrat's Russia fear mongering is one of the most insincere things I have ever seen in my entire life. They are just delaying the introspection they need to win elections again.
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  #55384  
Old 07-10-2017, 09:38 PM
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I have never read Breitbart before. Everything I said is reality. The Democrat's Russia fear mongering is one of the most insincere things I have ever seen in my entire life. They are just delaying the introspection they need to win elections again.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-putin/512750/

I didn't know public history could be "insincere".
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  #55385  
Old 07-10-2017, 09:57 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-putin/512750/

I didn't know public history could be "insincere".
That is about Tillerson. He was obviously chosen because he has friends abroad and knows how to work with foreign countries. Trump wanted someone with that kind of international experience but wasn't some kind of academic or government worker who usually get to fill these posts. Peace is a reasonable aspiration with Russia. We just want to argue from a position of strength and not weakness. If you can support Obama's Iranian deal or Russian reset then you should be able to support this without calling out treason. The Russian people will hopefully be our friends one day but that day is not any time soon. We should always fight with the expectation that one day there will be peace. Tillerson has still supported a retributive response against Russia's transgressions.

What is insincere is that the DNC actually cares about Russia considering Obama's tenure. I think Clinton did and she was correcting the mistakes of the past. The rest of the Democrats just see it as politically expedient. Instead of selling an economic, social, or foreign policy message they think they can take down Trump with McCarthyism. If Mueller's investigation turns up nothing then all this beating the drums will be for nothing. The Democrats still haven't given a reason to vote for them and because of that they will be a long term political, especially in congress, minority.
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  #55386  
Old 07-10-2017, 11:36 PM
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You know what's the most remarkable thing about the last year? I genuinely thought proof and a public history of absolutely horrifying behavior was enough to dissuade people of a conman's nature. How things like Trump's housing discrimination, businesses like Trump University, and statements like "Grab them by the pussy" were enough to prove that we shouldn't give the man any credence. That it, when added to the mountains of proof of Trump and his campaign's completely complicit dealing with Russia, could convince people they were being duped.

I have to admit, I was wrong. Some people are just that gullible.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:58 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You know what's the most remarkable thing about the last year? I genuinely thought proof and a public history of absolutely horrifying behavior was enough to dissuade people of a conman's nature. How things like Trump's housing discrimination, businesses like Trump University, and statements like "Grab them by the pussy" were enough to prove that we shouldn't give the man any credence. That it, when added to the mountains of proof of Trump and his campaign's completely complicit dealing with Russia, could convince people they were being duped.

I have to admit, I was wrong. Some people are just that gullible.
You need to get out of that DC bubble. Either people don't interpret those events the same way or when presented with a choice they choose him in spite of it. This strategy isn't going to be able to turn things around. People hate the Democrats more than they hate Trump.

Don't you think your perspective is vastly different than most other people's in what makes a president worthy of a vote? I can see that I was dismissive of the blue collar workforce when I voted against Trump. I know the dilapidated towns exist but I lacked the investment in their lives. After having them essentially beating me I decided to give him and them a chance. This is what democracy is for. I don't want to just write them off as beneath me because their suffering is not my own. They deserve their time in the sun.
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  #55388  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:00 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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You know what's the most remarkable thing about the last year? I genuinely thought proof and a public history of absolutely horrifying behavior was enough to dissuade people of a conman's nature. How things like Trump's housing discrimination, businesses like Trump University, and statements like "Grab them by the pussy" were enough to prove that we shouldn't give the man any credence. That it, when added to the mountains of proof of Trump and his campaign's completely complicit dealing with Russia, could convince people they were being duped.

I have to admit, I was wrong. Some people are just that gullible.
It's outrage fatigue. The guy has a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him of downright treason and people still think it's okay. I saw this coming when there was a lawsuit against him for that time he raped a 13 year-old girl and the chorus lined up for his defense.
We're through the looking glass.
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  #55389  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:07 AM
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It's outrage fatigue. The guy has a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him of downright treason and people still think it's okay. I saw this coming when there was a lawsuit against him for that time he raped a 13 year-old girl and the chorus lined up for his defense.
We're through the looking glass.
Whatever happened to that lawsuit? I figured that one might be unprovable, but given his admitting he walked in on a locker room full of underage women, there might be enough precedence to make a civil case of it at least.
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  #55390  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:13 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Whatever happened to that lawsuit? I figured that one might be unprovable, but given his admitting he walked in on a locker room full of underage women, there might be enough precedence to make a civil case of it at least.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ss-teen-usa-c/
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  #55391  
Old 07-11-2017, 08:58 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Whatever happened to that lawsuit? I figured that one might be unprovable, but given his admitting he walked in on a locker room full of underage women, there might be enough precedence to make a civil case of it at least.
There was a mountain of death threats against her. Redcaps were trying to dox her and said they'd kill her if she went through with the lawsuit.

Has anybody dug through Qusay's emails with the Crown Prosecutor of Russia?
"The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras and they offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be useful to your father. This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump — helped along by Aras and Emin."
Watch Qusay say how "disgusting" it is that the DNC will do "anything to win" like lie and say that Russia was helping his dad win the election. Another fun fact: The first tweet from the now-president about Clinton's emails was about 10 minutes after his son, his son-in-law, and his campaign manager met with the crown prosecutor of Russia. Funny thing, that.

Also looks like Kushner met with the guy. He did not disclose this on his SF86. Isn't that a felony? The whole extended family needs to be locked up.

[edit] W e w
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/CF...nt-detail.html
"(g)Solicitation, acceptance, or receipt of contributions and donations from foreign nationals. No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section.
(1) No person shall knowingly provide substantial assistance in the solicitation, making, acceptance, or receipt of a contribution or donation prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d), and (g) of this section.
(2) No person shall knowingly provide substantial assistance in the making of an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement prohibited by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section.
(4)Knowingly means that a person must:
(i) Have actual knowledge that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national;
(ii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is a substantial probability that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national; or
(iii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national, but the person failed to conduct a reasonable inquiry.
(i)Participation by foreign nationals in decisions involving election-related activities. A foreign national shall not direct, dictate, control, or directly or indirectly participate in the decision-making process of any person, such as a corporation, labor organization, political committee, or political organization with regard to such person's Federal or non-Federal election-related activities, such as decisions concerning the making of contributions, donations, expenditures, or disbursements in connection with elections for any Federal, State, or local office or decisions concerning the administration of a political committee."
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Old 07-11-2017, 10:47 AM
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There was a mountain of death threats against her. Redcaps were trying to dox her and said they'd kill her if she went through with the lawsuit.

Has anybody dug through Qusay's emails with the Crown Prosecutor of Russia?
https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/s...89839522140166
"The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras and they offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be useful to your father. This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump — helped along by Aras and Emin."
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...98058881576960
Watch Qusay say how "disgusting" it is that the DNC will do "anything to win" like lie and say that Russia was helping his dad win the election. Another fun fact: The first tweet from the now-president about Clinton's emails was about 10 minutes after his son, his son-in-law, and his campaign manager met with the crown prosecutor of Russia. Funny thing, that.

Also looks like Kushner met with the guy. He did not disclose this on his SF86. Isn't that a felony? The whole extended family needs to be locked up.
Fun fact, there's no such thing as a "Crown prosecutor" in Russia. Not only did DTJ agree to collude with a foreign power, he got trolled by them too.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:12 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Fun fact, there's no such thing as a "Crown prosecutor" in Russia. Not only did DTJ agree to collude with a foreign power, he got trolled by them too.
Well, yeah, the Russians are very much the dominant ones in this relationship and they like to make that very clear.
I'm just sad that nothing will probably come of any of this because it would take the Republicans in Congress to actually do something against a Republican (which is thoroughly against the 11th Commandment). The GOP has made it clear they don't care about collusion however illegal it is and they are completely fine with being a puppet state.
I think the only way out of this is if whatever Russia has on the RNC (from the hack last year or otherwise) is leaked. Even then, it's a tough call.

Meanwhile, instead of covering this, Lil Tucker decides to promote antivax bullshit.
http://gizmodo.com/fox-news-is-just-...f-v-1796802398
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:43 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I don't like Putin but this feels like McCarthyism all over again.
Basically this Trump-Russia witchunt is 80% bullshit and 20% "so what?"
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:50 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Basically this Trump-Russia witchunt is 80% bullshit and 20% "so what?"
...Did you skip my post? DJTJr himself is showing emails that show him, his brother-in-law (Kushner), and their campaign manager (Manafort) meeting up with Russian officials for the expressed purpose of get incriminating data on Hillary Clinton. It is literal collusion.
Every thing they have been denying all along is turning out to be true. First, the Russians did nothing, then they didn't know, then they weren't involved, and now they "didn't know" that it was extremely illegal to collude with a foreign government to influence the election.

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that these emails were originally obtained by the NYT from an "anonymous source." When they asked Qusay to comment on them, he went ahead and released them himself. I thought you guys said those "anonymous sources" were all bullshit!
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:32 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I could be wrong but I am just not seeing the danger here even if some degree of collusion turns out to be true, and I doubt much will be found. For one, what does Russia even gain? They supposedly orchestrated a massive, complex and expensive operation to get Trump elected and yet the sanctions are still there and Eastern Europe is still being strengthened. Cui bono is always a pertinent question and it doesn't really chime for me in this case, at all. Even if Russia influenced you, so what? Everyone wants to influence everyone else, especially someone powerful. When you legalize money in politics then of course people will throw money and support behind their preferred candidate, it is the cost of a flawed democracy. Again 80% BS, 20% so what.

And honestly, America will not fall, America will not even be shaken by this. You guys have much more important issues to address and this just seems like yet another hyper-partisan waste of time.

But hey that is just my opinion, it's your country and you can worry about whatever you like.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I could be wrong but I am just not seeing the danger here even if some degree of collusion turns out to be true, and I doubt much will be found. For one, what does Russia even gain? They supposedly orchestrated a massive, complex and expensive operation to get Trump elected and yet the sanctions are still there and Eastern Europe is still being strengthened. Cui bono is always a pertinent question and it doesn't really chime for me in this case, at all. Even if Russia influenced you, so what? Everyone wants to influence everyone else, especially someone powerful. When you legalize money in politics then of course people will throw money and support behind their preferred candidate, it is the cost of a flawed democracy. Again 80% BS, 20% so what.

And honestly, America will not fall, America will not even be shaken by this. You guys have much more important issues to address and this just seems like yet another hyper-partisan waste of time.

But hey that is just my opinion, it's your country and you can worry about whatever you like.
Europe is drifting away from the US. Hell, nearly all of our foreign relations are strained right now. Nobody respects us and the world is laughing at us and our incompetent leadership. I'll be surprised if the dollar retains its reserve currency status through the end of this presidency.
We're losing our position as world superpower, which is exactly what Russia wants. Sanction dropping will likely happen over time, most likely by Europe first since they won't have American influence to be concerned about.
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:45 PM
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I could be wrong but I am just not seeing the danger here even if some degree of collusion turns out to be true, and I doubt much will be found. For one, what does Russia even gain? They supposedly orchestrated a massive, complex and expensive operation to get Trump elected and yet the sanctions are still there and Eastern Europe is still being strengthened. Cui bono is always a pertinent question and it doesn't really chime for me in this case, at all. Even if Russia influenced you, so what? Everyone wants to influence everyone else, especially someone powerful. When you legalize money in politics then of course people will throw money and support behind their preferred candidate, it is the cost of a flawed democracy. Again 80% BS, 20% so what.

And honestly, America will not fall, America will not even be shaken by this. You guys have much more important issues to address and this just seems like yet another hyper-partisan waste of time.

But hey that is just my opinion, it's your country and you can worry about whatever you like.
But there is a real danger here if/when the allegations against Mr. Trump are proved to be true, C9. What the accusation amounts to is collusion with a hostile foreign-power, for the purpose to subverting an American election, through the use of espionage against his democratic rival and a targeted online disinformation campaign; ultimately for Mr. Trump's own personal enrichment and Mr. Putin's goal of undermining international institutions and alliances. Its the prostitution of American democracy and foreign-policy, that's the danger here.

Just from what is already public knowledge, we simply know too much already about Mr. Trump's relationship with Russian oligarchs for this all to be dismissed as a series of incredible coincidences. We know that Mr. Trump publicly called upon Russian intelligence operatives to continue hacking Mrs. Clinton and her associates; we know that associates close to Trump (Michael Stone) were aware of the Wikileaks information before it was ever made public; we know that his old campaign-manager Paul Manafort was paid millions by the Kremlin to promote Putin's interests in Europe and America; we know of over a dozen unusual and undisclosed communications between Trump associates and Russian state-officials; we know his Secretary of State represents an oil company that lost a drilling deal with Russia worth billions of dollars because of American sanctions; we know how Mr. Trump has attempted to obstruct any investigation into his activities; we know that the disgraced Michael Flynn (President Trump's pick for his national security advisor) made a series of private calls with the Russian ambassador on the very day that President Obama tightened sanctions. And then we know of Mr. Trump's own furtive and suspicious behavior whenever Putin is mentioned - for all of Donald's supposed-reputation for being a straight-talker who isn't afraid to call a situation as it is; he has communicated nothing but praise and admiration for the Russian President that imprisons/murders dissenters and commits wars of aggression against his neighbors. All of this looks exactly how you would expect it to look if there really was a corrupt relationship between these parties.

And one of the most damaging facets of all this is how Mr. Trump and his associates have been deliberately undermining the very idea that reality itself is discernible by evidence and reason. How every inconvenient truth that emerges against Mr. Trump or any sober criticism of his actions can be immediately dismissed under the rubric of 'false news.' Its the total abandonment of objectivity - nothing can be true; everything's relative. And there's the other alarming phenomena of how so many of the people that get caught in Mr. Trump's orbit, they seem to absorb his same dishonesty and solipsism. Look at how his most ardent supporters have invariably defended his actions - deny, deflect, delay, distract and dissemble. Everyone knows what an unwholesome swamp 'the_donald' subreddit is - if anyone ever wanted to see what an online cult of personality and safe-space looked like, they would go there.

But finally on the suggestion that any refutation of Mr. Trump must be motivated a partisan bias - that claim just doesn't hold up, at least in my case. If Mr. Trump happened to be impeached/arrested tomorrow, that would mean the inauguration of President Pence - and with all my concerns for many of his wacky and theocratic ideas, that would still be preferable than a continued Trump presidency. Even a President Ryan that wouldn't make a single change to the Republican platform is still preferable to the status quo. There is something quantifiably different about Mr. Trump's psychological make-up that sets him apart from previous candidates for the presidency - he is not the same as Governor Romney, Senator McCain and President Bush. He is someone that seems to be entirely motivated by his own greed and narcissism - and all the powers and responsibilities of the presidency has not improved his temperament at all; the world is left watching in horror as someone with the ultimate-power to end human civilization on this planet continues to degenerate mentally.

There's an almost-inexhaustible itinerary of points on the multitude of ways in which the President of the United States is unsuitable for office, but I would be trying on everyone's patience by continuing any further.

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Old 07-11-2017, 03:01 PM
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So is there any reason Trump goes full Clinton and drags the revelation for months instead of getting everything out and moving to something else ?
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:19 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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So is there any reason Trump goes full Clinton and drags the revelation for months instead of getting everything out and moving to something else ?
My guess is some kind of kompromat or just thinking they could get away with it. He's not exactly known for lacking in hubris.
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politics, serious business, sylvanas for president

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