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  #126  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:10 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
I'm just basing it on what I see ingame, on forums, etc.
The typical casual WoW player will hop in an LFR every now and then, and if something cool-looking drops he or she might be happy with that. But he didn't look up which boss dropped what before, he didn't plan out his character's look, and he would have queued up whether the gear looked good or bad.
Same as me, plus podcasts and all that where people spend hours trying to build the perfect outfit/outfits for their characters and going to websites that tell you where to pick up a certain look and all that.
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  #127  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:13 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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For the record, I have never enjoyed a single LFR run in all 3 of the expansions it's been featured in.
I wouldn't say I ever enjoyed LFR. I enjoyed experiencing it for the first time with my GF, but that was due to the company. It's something we used to do sometimes when we were bored on alts, and we would mostly make fun of people or get incredibly annoyed. The rest of the time it was like background noise.

Since 5.4 I barely ever step foot in there, certainly not on alts anymore. I mostly just use it to speed my legendary quest progress up because my raid is usually a bit behind, and that's it.

Based on what I've witnessed over the years I'd be confident in saying that most people were annoyed or bored in LFR. There's either toxic bitching over wipes, or ppl just afk and watch streams. DAT RAID EXPERIENCE.
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  #128  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:19 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It's kinda what you expect, just like 5 mans but with more people. Which explains why WoD LFR was dumbed down even more.

5 mans were probably one of the biggest reasons why I pretty much stick with tanking. Besides the insta-que, it's the control and know that we aren't going to wipe because the tank didn't know what she was doing....
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  #129  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:24 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Either way, I don't mind resorting to my garrison to get my sets. Less time wasted in LFR. 5 mans is my kind of content.

I just think that it's counterproductive, if Blizzard wants LFR to stay, and that having the sets drop in LFR doesn't harm anyone. Sure, some raiders left like they were forced to do LFR, but Blizzard could simply have made LFR gear look like tier sets without actually giving it any set-boni.
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  #130  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:27 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Nah, it's no comparison to group content for me. The anonymity of larger groups allows for way more slacking, flaming, trolling etc., and individuals really barely matter at all in LFR tuning.

If you die in group content, you often severely set your group back. It's harder by default, even on normal difficulty. It's automatically a better social experience, imo. Sure you get silent quitters and trolls just the same, but by default I've always seen far more interaction, a modicum of adherence to socially appropriate behaviour, and sometimes even online friendships forming in LFD.

Ever tried queueing for a Normal dungeon in Warlords now btw? It's shocking. You get all the people that literally can't beat PG Silver, it's horrifying. I did it when someone dared me 2 months ago, I was shocked. There's this whole group of players that cannot grasp the basics of their class or the game, and to me LFR has contributed to this BIG time, because it doesn't incentivize you to do anything of the sort.

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Either way, I don't mind resorting to my garrison to get my sets. Less time wasted in LFR. 5 mans is my kind of content.

I just think that it's counterproductive, if Blizzard wants LFR to stay, and that having the sets drop in LFR doesn't harm anyone. Sure, some raiders left like they were forced to do LFR, but Blizzard could simply have made LFR gear look like tier sets without actually giving it any set-boni.
I don't think anyone is harmed either, but it feels incredibly cheap to have the same stuff drop.

As for 5 mans - I agree. That's the heart and soul of the game, and they've basically kicked it into a corner and spit on it. Mythic dungeons?? I'm a fairly hardcore raider and I only slapped my forehead over this. People have been clamoring for MORE dungeons for years and we get another difficulty of the same crap. And it won't even remotely compare to Mythic raiding, which contains new mechanics and encounter elements. It will simply be Challenge Mode tuning for our itemlevel, I guarantee you that. Dat content.
#bravodevs
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  #131  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:31 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Nah, it's no comparison to group content for me. The anonymity of larger groups allows for way more slacking, flaming, trolling etc., and individuals really barely matter at all in LFR tuning.

If you die in group content, you often severely set your group back. It's harder by default, even on normal difficulty. It's automatically a better social experience, imo. Sure you get silent quitters and trolls just the same, but by default I've always seen far more interaction, a modicum of adherence to socially appropriate behaviour, and sometimes even online friendships forming in LFD.

Ever tried queueing for a Normal dungeon in Warlords now btw? It's shocking. You get all the people that literally can't beat PG Silver, it's horrifying. I did it when someone dared me 2 months ago, I was shocked. There's this whole group of players that cannot grasp the basics of their class or the game, and to me LFR has contributed to this BIG time, because it doesn't incentivize you to do anything of the sort.
I had no issues on normal or heroic dungeons with my warlock, besides today's heroic. The tank didn't know how Rocketspark worked and always died.
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  #132  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:39 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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I had no issues on normal or heroic dungeons with my warlock, besides today's heroic. The tank didn't know how Rocketspark worked and always died.
I doubt most of those people are still playing now, tbh.

Anyway they better have some impressive shit lined up for 7.0, because it's pretty obvious that they're running the WoD content on only part of the team.
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  #133  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:44 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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LFR can be plenty fun for inane discussions, practical jokes (*jump* "Hrm, seems they added an invisible wall".) and other social stuff.
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  #134  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:54 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
LFR was fine until they shit all over it and gave you ghetto armor skins as a reward.

I don't care if the stats are inferior... but to say a casual isn't worth decent artwork is kind of a dick move, Blizz.
Makes me think they should have give that stuff from Garrisons with LFR keeping the stuff it usually got.
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  #135  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:56 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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I just don't buy the "no time for artwork" argument from them anymore. They use it for anything they want an excuse for these days, it's getting absurd.
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  #136  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:57 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Too busy working on the next two expansions....
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  #137  
Old 05-08-2015, 06:58 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I just don't buy the "no time for artwork" argument from them anymore. They use it for anything they want an excuse for these days, it's getting absurd.
Blizzard is ridiculously inefficient with their artwork resources as a matter of policy, trying to give every region as unique a look as possible, as well as creating unique assets for each major location. Unfortunately, as they never add new parts of old regions, unique regional resources are never used for new content.
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  #138  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:01 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Too busy working on the next two expansions....
Rise of the Axolotls and Sargeras stood in the Fire?
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  #139  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:01 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Blizzard is ridiculously inefficient with their artwork resources as a matter of policy, trying to give every region as unique a look as possible, as well as creating unique assets for each major location. Unfortunately, as they never add new parts of old regions, unique regional resources are never used for new content.
Leading to the obvious result, Ashran.
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  #140  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:06 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Too busy working on the next two expansions....
That would probably be the only thing that could get them an increase if they make that obvious to us while delivering it. They need some big WoW news this Blizzcon otherwise WoW might keep declining even though i do think it is still way faar off getting as low as other profiting MMO's.
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  #141  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:08 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Rise of the Axolotls and Sargeras stood in the Fire?
nah, Rise of the naga orges & Sargeras' and Kil'jaeden's Excellent Adventures.
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  #142  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:08 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ku'ja View Post
That would probably be the only thing that could get them an increase if they make that obvious to us while delivering it. They need some big WoW news this Blizzcon otherwise WoW might keep declining even though i do think it is still way faar off getting as low as other profiting MMO's.
The profitability of WoW will never be in any danger. Despite losing 3 mil they still increased their revenue this quarter.
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  #143  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:14 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
nah, Rise of the naga orges & Sargeras' and Kil'jaeden's Excellent Adventures.
Sargeras getting corrupted because he stood in the fire and his raid couldn't beat the MC out of him is still canon.
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  #144  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:15 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Leading to the obvious result, Ashran.
Ugh, yeah. Using resources sensibly isn't exactly the main fault there, but damn if sensible resource usage didn't end up in the single worst zone ever seen in WoW.
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  #145  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:23 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Sargeras getting corrupted because he stood in the fire and his raid couldn't beat the MC out of him is still canon.
Except that was in the AU because Sargy and KJ went back in time to prevent that and Sargy....

fall into lava

Or was it when Sargy fell into Yoggy and his raid wasn't fast enough on killing the tentacles....
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  #146  
Old 05-08-2015, 08:02 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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I just don't buy the "no time for artwork" argument from them anymore. They use it for anything they want an excuse for these days, it's getting absurd.
Yep, same as the "Do you want X or a Raid Tier?"

It might of had SOME merit at one point, but it's long past that and is just a sad joke now.
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  #147  
Old 05-08-2015, 08:19 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Yep, same as the "Do you want X or a Raid Tier?"

It might of had SOME merit at one point, but it's long past that and is just a sad joke now.
That will cost you a raid tier and this new mount of the Blizzard Store will cost you $25USD! BUY NOW.
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  #148  
Old 05-08-2015, 08:53 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Yep, same as the "Do you want X or a Raid Tier?"

It might of had SOME merit at one point, but it's long past that and is just a sad joke now.
All things are scarce. Including X's and raids.
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  #149  
Old 05-08-2015, 10:35 AM
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I'm still [sincerely] perplexed how they thought Timeless Isle 2.0 was a basis for so much of WoD's gameplay. The Shaohao Rep grind suddenly applying for every WoD faction is one of the stupidest things they've ever done in over 10 years, and that isn't me being over-dramatic, that's actually the truth. I can't recall many changes during that time that made me facepalm as hard as some of WoD's design choices.

Things like No-Flying and LFR issues are seperate issues, and like Miffy (much as I hate to say it) I have to agree; I'm not convinced they are as big of a problem as some folks make them out to be.
Per interviews before WoD's launch there was a lot of talk about the old quest model being very dated and needing revamps/new ideas to keep it fresh. That in order for the game to continue to succeed they'd need to iterate on the hook that made the game a success into an even better model.

It all sounds good on paper. Kill X filler / Collect Y Whatever offers nothing to a narrative, so why not get rid of those quests and add them as optional bonus objectives? Players dislike arbitrary gating, so why not let them set their own pace? If the tyranny of exclamation points is a problem, why not develop other means of presenting content?

The problem with the first is that those filler quests also fleshed out the game world, set pacing, gave players a chance to autopilot, etc. Nothing was added to prop this back up. The problem with the second I find rather unforgivable because setting pace and perceived expectations is a basic design facet for video games, and Blizzard has espoused their necessity themselves in the past, so I dunno how it all swung so hard that way. Similarly, #3 was a basic staple of the game that served a very core function, and without a flawless replacement, it all came crumbling down.

Basically comes down to a very poor decision to remove and replace working models instead of keeping the old and gradually phasing it out through small increments of new.
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  #150  
Old 05-08-2015, 11:29 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Not at all surprised.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...on-Subscribers

3 million subs gone, even with a token system in place to allow players to play for "free" (token subs DO count against sub numbers).

World of TimeTravelBullshitGarrisonCraft is an utter disaster, might actually be WORSE than Cataclysm.

I'd expect heads to roll at Blizzard.
I feel this post from Reddit is worth quoting: http://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments...1_2015/cr0p45a

Quote:
Shamelessly hijacking the top post to show why the numbers fell so hard. 7.1 million. That's less than Cataclysm at its worst by about 2 million. The reason that subscription numbers have gotten this low is because we have less content for WoD than past expansions. And you might not realize how much WoD didn't deliver. Let's take a look:

No new races

No new classes

No new battlegrounds

No new capital cities

No new profession

Remaining professions gutted

Farahlon cut

Tannan pushed back to 6.2

BRF pushed back from launch

Ashran is a complete failure

No daily hubs

No reputation factions to work for rewards

Only five new leveling zones (Shadowmoon and Frostfire are basically faction specific)

Now let's compare that with the content of other expansions at launch:

BC offered:

A new battleground

Two new races

Three new capital cities

Flying Mounts

A new profession

Seven new leveling zones

Wrath offered:

Two new battlegrounds

Wintergrasp

A new class

A new capital city

A new profession

Eight new leveling zones (not counting Crystalsong)

Cataclysm offered

Redesigned Azeroth

Two new races

Two new battlegrounds

Archeology

Tol Barad

Redesigned Stormwind and Orgrimmar

Mists offered

A new race

A new class

Two new battlegrounds

Scenarios

Battlepets

Six new leveling zones (not counting Vale of Eternal Blossoms)

So if all of this side content was missing, one would assume that at least the main, end game content should have been greater, correct? This was the dungeon and raid content that was released AT LAUNCH:

BC

15 Dungeons

5 Raids (Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon's Lair, Serpentshrine, Tempest Keep)

Wrath

12 Dungeons

4 Raids (Naxxramas, Obsidian Sanctum, Eye of Eternity, Vault of Archavon)

Cataclysm

9 Dungeons

4 Raids (Blackwing Descent, Baradin Hold, Throne of the Four Winds, Bastion of Twilight)

Mists

9 Dungeons

1 Raid (Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear and Terrace of the Endless Spring released a month after launch)

WoD

8 Dungeons

1 Raid (Highmaul, BRF released three months after launch)

Now people have said before, "Hey those other raids were small and didn't really count as a real raid." But my rebuttal would be then why were they removed? Those small raids were always there at the beginning of the expansions. Why couldn't Blizzard work on them? What were they possibly spending all their time on?

This is why subscribers are down. It's not because Blizzard has been catering to hardcore gamers. It's not because Blizzard has been catering to casual gamers. AND IT IS NOT because WoW is just getting old. WoW subscribers are down because Blizzard has released significantly less content this expansion. And this doesn't even touch on the drama which is "No Flying", the abysmal story writing, the capital city drama, the mass of botters ruining pvp, or the terrible design choice that was garrisons, to have players spend most of their time in an MMORPG inside their own personal instance.

And what frustrates a lot of us, and the reason why it probably seems like people are complaining left and right, is because Blizzard knew we were frustrated in WoW. They understood that the SoO 14 month content gap sucked. They said they understood that we wanted more dungeons released throughout the expansion like with the Icecrown Citadel patch. They said they were going to change their ways. And they didn't.

Even with the trend Blizzard has been going on with less and less content, the significant lack of side, non-raid content in WoD is insane, especially when you consider what they did in the past and how little dungeon and raid content they gave us this round.

Also here's a graph of the subscriptions numbers for WoW overtime.

7.1 Million puts them back to almost SoO numbers.

TL;DR: WoW has been losing subscribers because Blizzard has been releasing less content. WoD is an insult to the players. They took more time to develop it than any of the others (14 months of no content during SoO), charged more for it than any of the others, and delivered significantly less content than any of the others.
Blizzard deserves this and more. They've been acting like morons since WotLK and SC2.
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