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  #58076  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:43 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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How do I show my "verified voter ID" when submitting an absentee ballot?

On the non-gov front, there's an interesting article on an anti-fascist going undercover with a right-wing extremist group (including that Ngo guy who has been fired due to it): https://www.portlandmercury.com/blog...rom-the-inside
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  #58077  
Old 08-28-2019, 05:51 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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How do I show my "verified voter ID" when submitting an absentee ballot?
Well, absentee ballots are weird and naturally have more falsification.

I'm trying to Google how other countries handle it, but I'm not getting many results. A good number of places don't even have it, or they restrict it. Here's something about Germany:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw....any/a-17102003
Quote:
Manipulation of absentee ballots, which are growing in popularity among Germans, could be easier than election fraud at the ballot box. In cities, as many as 30 percent of voters prefer to cast the ballot by mail rather than heading down to the polling places in person.

A care-taker in an elderly home might be doing the voting for one of his patients, a husband or wife might tick the box for their spouse. In 2002, local elections in Dachau were rigged when more than 400 postal votes had been manipulated. The fraud only came to light because the 400 ballots had been filled out with the exact same ballpoint pen.
Do any of the non-Yanks have answers to this sort of stuff?
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  #58078  
Old 08-30-2019, 05:14 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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We don't permit it, at the moment. There's a law draft that would utilize the e-government system (basically, since 2017, newly issued National ID cards contain a chip that, combined with your electronic signature and the correct password, allow you to log-in onto your own personal account that you can use to engage with all public bureaus and offices) to allow you to vote via internet, but nothing definite yet.
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  #58079  
Old 09-01-2019, 04:30 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Fucking Texas rifle-happy white boys, yee-haw.
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  #58080  
Old 09-01-2019, 05:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Well this seems very terribly bad.

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  #58081  
Old 09-02-2019, 11:42 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Voter ID laws are something that any healthy democracy requires in order to function. Without them, there would just be anarchy and douche bags exploiting our system for free handouts (basically the same problem we have with illegal aliens voting or stealing welfare money, but applied to literally everyone).

Voter ID laws are not "racist", as there is no such thing as "structural racism" or any such SocJus rubbish, unless people really believe that non-whites are so stupid that they can't get certain kinds of identification. You already need an ID for literally everything else: shopping, driving, work permits, school, and so on. Voter ID is just one more on that list.
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  #58082  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:04 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Well this seems very terribly bad.
I swear, these federal groups are like middle school group projects that were thrown together the night before deadline. Apparently this whole problem exists because the FEC had four members, and one resigned, so now it can't function?

This other article says its members have been on expired terms for years:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...ctoral-college
Quote:
All of the three sitting members are operating on expired terms, the longest being Weintraub.

David Warrington, president of the Republican National Lawyers Association, criticized Weintraub’s concerns about the Electoral College.

“Seventeen years into a six year term, Ellen Weintraub has now decided that she knows better than the Founders and that the Electoral College undermines the legitimacy of American elections,” he said today in response to her MSNBC comments.
A six year term that's lasted seventeen years, and the other couple of members are also on expired terms? Is there no system in place to reliably appoint new members? Is it truly designed to shut down the moment one member resigns? This stuff seems to have been a mess before Trump ever set foot in office.

Of course we can't expect him to clean it up, but it really should've been more in order before he stumbled in.
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  #58083  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:21 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Voter ID laws are something that any healthy democracy requires in order to function. Without them, there would just be anarchy and douche bags exploiting our system for free handouts (basically the same problem we have with illegal aliens voting or stealing welfare money, but applied to literally everyone).

Voter ID laws are not "racist", as there is no such thing as "structural racism" or any such SocJus rubbish, unless people really believe that non-whites are so stupid that they can't get certain kinds of identification. You already need an ID for literally everything else: shopping, driving, work permits, school, and so on. Voter ID is just one more on that list.
It can't work here because the right insists on using it to disenfranchise voters. There's a reason why they refuse to allow things like student IDs and library cards to be used. It becomes increasingly obvious when you find that voter fraud is something that almost never happens.
It's clearly not about election security since republicans want our elections as insecure as possible.

So we have a party claiming they want to secure elections to prevent something that almost never happens and has been shown to reduce voter turnout in their favor, but they also definitely don't care about election security. What does that say to you?
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  #58084  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:58 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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It can't work here because the right insists on using it to disenfranchise voters. There's a reason why they refuse to allow things like student IDs and library cards to be used.
Because those can be very easily faked, replicated, or otherwise used to cheat the system.

Quote:
It becomes increasingly obvious when you find that voter fraud is something that almost never happens.
Tell that to Al Franken. It is always a "small" problem, because that is how it succeeds. It only needs to shift a few hundred votes, or even a few dozen, as even one vote over your opponent in a district will allow you to claim it.

That is why utmost security is essential: we cannot allow a rot of fraud to become so commonplace that it destroys any trust in voting, otherwise we might as well go full Roman Empire.

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It's clearly not about election security since republicans want our elections as insecure as possible.
>Republicans are evil racists who want to tighten all of our Voter ID laws in order to "disenfranchize" POCs!
>Republicans want to get rid of Voter ID in order to allow Russia to put in puppets!

You can't have it both ways, as they are contradictory. Oh, and, of course, the scaremongering is based on "muh Russia collusion" narrative, that was utterly disproven and thrown into the bin.

Quote:
So we have a party claiming they want to secure elections to prevent something that almost never happens and has been shown to reduce voter turnout in their favor, but they also definitely don't care about election security. What does that say to you?
That your position is utterly self-contradictory, and makes no sense? The whole "racist Voter ID laws" are a leftist boogeyman, designed to allow the Democrats to allow Illegal Aliens to vote, and turn the entire country into a one-party dictatorship. A con game.
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  #58085  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:10 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Because those can be very easily faked, replicated, or otherwise used to cheat the system.


Tell that to Al Franken. It is always a "small" problem, because that is how it succeeds. It only needs to shift a few hundred votes, or even a few dozen, as even one vote over your opponent in a district will allow you to claim it.

That is why utmost security is essential: we cannot allow a rot of fraud to become so commonplace that it destroys any trust in voting, otherwise we might as well go full Roman Empire.
If you're concerned about fraud, go after election fraud. It's rampant in this country but the right refuses to do anything about it because they're the ones committing it.

Quote:
>Republicans are evil racists who want to tighten all of our Voter ID laws in order to "disenfranchize" POCs!
>Republicans want to get rid of Voter ID in order to allow Russia to put in puppets!

You can't have it both ways, as they are contradictory.
It's a good thing that's not at all what I said. You're very close to pointing out the actual problem, though. Our elections are extremely insecure and republicans refuse to do anything about it except enact legislation to "solve" what is essentially a nonissue.

Quote:
Oh, and, of course, the scaremongering is based on "muh Russia collusion" narrative, that was utterly disproven and thrown into the bin.
The United States is under attack by Russia. There is no denying this.
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/70885...ith-redactions

Quote:
That your position is utterly self-contradictory, and makes no sense? The whole "racist Voter ID laws" are a leftist boogeyman, designed to allow the Democrats to allow Illegal Aliens to vote, and turn the entire country into a one-party dictatorship. A con game.
You don't even know how voter registration and voting itself works in my country, do you? Can you explain how you think these "illegal alien" boogeymen are voting in federal elections?

And you're backwards yet again. Republican voter disenfranchisement and consolidation of power is sending us careening into a right-wing one-party dictatorship despite what your right-wing rag there might say. Did you know that the republican SCOTUS ruled gerrymandering legal?
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  #58086  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:30 PM
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Voter ID laws are something that any healthy democracy requires in order to function. Without them, there would just be anarchy and douche bags exploiting our system for free handouts (basically the same problem we have with illegal aliens voting or stealing welfare money, but applied to literally everyone).
So how did democracies exist before Voter ID laws? Voter ID laws did not exist until 1950 in South Carolina, and they did not really gain any traction until about 20 years ago in Republican-led states. I'm not entirely sure what sort of historically non-existent anarchy you are imagining here. Can you find evidence that "illegal aliens voting" is a significant problem? Most studies I have found indicate that the total number of illegal votes are typically a marginally tiny drop in the bucket of legal votes but maybe you have some reliable non-biased sources that you can cite.

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Voter ID laws are not "racist", as there is no such thing as "structural racism"
3/5 Compromise. Indian Removal Act of 1830 (aka "Trail of Tears"). Slavery. Chinese Exclusion Act. Segregation and Jim Crow laws. Japanese "Internment Camps." How were these things not structural racism? Let's be clear here, structural racism is not gone because these things are gone. These are just the most sledgehammer-in-the-skull-obvious examples of structural racism in US history. It exists.

You can read more about other examples of real institutional racism here. It includes gems such as how banks would deny home loans to blacks, thus enabling what would become "white flight" as whites moved to suburbs and their own kids would typically also be more likely to receive loans.

Quote:
unless people really believe that non-whites are so stupid that they can't get certain kinds of identification. You already need an ID for literally everything else: shopping, driving, work permits, school, and so on. Voter ID is just one more on that list.
Remember how literacy tests were used to disenfranchise black voters and how that was regarded as unconstitutional? It's not about thinking "that non-whites are stupid that they can't get certain kinds of identification," but, rather, that Republicans in some states have explicitly sought to only qualify ID that whites are more likely to have than non-whites. Seeking to systematically disenfranchise and create voting hurdles for non-whites under the guise of legality? Yeah, that would qualify as structural racism.
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  #58087  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:58 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Tell that to Al Franken.
It's a US News opinion piece that links to a WSJ opinion piece that links to a debunked "report" about the number of felons who illegally voted in the election from a conservative watchdog group, which was circulated by rightwing media.

Quote:
The whole "racist Voter ID laws" are a leftist boogeyman, designed to allow the Democrats to allow Illegal Aliens to vote, and turn the entire country into a one-party dictatorship. A con game.
And to prove your point you link to another poorly-written op-ed piece from a conservative re-blogging website?

If Republicans showed signs of "good faith" about voter ID laws and sought to make them accessible to every eligible voter, then I would have far less of an issue. However, in the face of contrary evidence, as is the case with my home state, then I am more concerned with the "rot of disenfranchisement" and the "rot of racism" masquerading as concern about the "rot of fraud." It does not so much destroy my trust in voting, but my trust in Republican lawmakers to create fair, good, and just laws for the common good of all voting citizens.
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  #58088  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:58 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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If you're concerned about fraud, go after election fraud. It's rampant in this country but the right refuses to do anything about it because they're the ones committing it.
Nope. The only ones that are backing it, are leftists like you. Illegal Aliens getting to vote would allow the Progressives to turn the USA in it's entirety into San Francisco, like what the Left is trying to do in Texas.

Quote:
It's a good thing that's not at all what I said. You're very close to pointing out the actual problem, though. Our elections are extremely insecure and republicans refuse to do anything about it except enact legislation to "solve" what is essentially a nonissue.
It's not a "nonissue" at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't have "muh Russia Collusion" and "Trump stealing the election", while also saying it's a "nonissue", while also claiming it's evil and "racist".

Quote:
The United States is under attack by Russia. There is no denying this.
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/70885...ith-redactions
That source is not trustworthy, as NPR is a leftist propaganda mill. Russia is an enemy, that is true. But we aren't currently at war with them. Oh, and you are leaving out that the ones who started the whole "Russians subverting our Democracy" was the Clinton Campaign and their allies in Russia.

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You don't even know how voter registration and voting itself works in my country, do you?
"In my country"? Kek. I'm also American, Leftist. I can't speak to whatever Left-wing shithole State you are from, Kak, but I can speak to personal standards here in Eastern Washington:
I can do a write-in ballot, and deliver it by mail. My name, SSID, and other personal information, are checked by the voting staff so that I receive a ballot to begin with.

Note that I consider this to be too damn loose, and it needs to made more rigid. People should be required to show up, in person, and display their SSID and ID card (or, for first time voters, sign up there right before voting, which would include background checks).

Voter registration is far too loose in most States, it needs to be tighter. It often just requires a picture ID.

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Can you explain how you think these "illegal alien" boogeymen are voting in federal elections?
Because they just roll up and ask for it, or Democrats force them in. Take a nice, long look at Sanctuary Cities for how that works.

Quote:
And you're backwards yet again. Republican voter disenfranchisement and consolidation of power is sending us careening into a right-wing one-party dictatorship despite what your right-wing rag there might say. Did you know that the republican SCOTUS ruled gerrymandering legal?
If the "gerrymandering" boogeyman was real, why do Democrats constantly make use of it?

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
It's a US News opinion piece that links to a WSJ opinion piece that links to a debunked "report" about the number of felons who illegally voted in the election from a conservative watchdog group, which was circulated by rightwing media.
Same case with anything you link, Genesis. There is no such thing as "unbiased". Franken cheated, and if your only response is "B-b-but Republican lies!", then it is clear you have nothing.

Quote:
And to prove your point you link to another poorly-written op-ed piece from a conservative re-blogging website?
And all of your "proof" for "racism" and "suppression" comes from racial victim hood organizations (like the NAACP), that exist solely to put out retarded conspiracy theories about "voter suppression" in order to gin up fears of a bunch of invisible Klansmen, which helps increase the amount of donations they get.

Quote:
If Republicans showed signs of "good faith" about voter ID laws and sought to make them accessible to every eligible voter, then I would have far less of an issue. However, in the face of contrary evidence, as is the case with my home state, then I am more concerned with the "rot of disenfranchisement" and the "rot of racism" masquerading as concern about the "rot of fraud." It does not so much destroy my trust in voting, but my trust in Republican lawmakers to create fair, good, and just laws for the common good of all voting citizens.
There is no "racism". If there were, Barack Obama wouldn't have gotten an insane amount of black votes, as black turnout was higher than white turnout in 2012. And there's this: 24 million voter registrations found to be illegal, invalid, fraudulent, or other small errors.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 09-02-2019 at 02:24 PM..
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  #58089  
Old 09-02-2019, 02:21 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Nope. The only ones that are backing it, are leftists like you. Illegal Aliens getting to vote would allow the Progressives to turn the USA in it's entirety into San Francisco, like what the Left is trying to do in Texas.
(1) This is just ridiculous scaremongering on the absurd scale of "This is the future that liberals want: taco trucks on every street." "Illegal Aliens getting to vote" probably would do no such thing.

(2) San Francisco sucks. Take it from someone who has lived in the area, it's not a bastion of progressive politics. Nowadays, it's mostly a bunch of boomer yuppies and libertarian Tech Bros gentrifying the area and driving longtime generational families out of the area through their terrible housing policies. It also caters to the corporatization and commodification of queer culture. Sure, they vote Democrat in elections, but when it comes to living or enacting their "progressive" talk, they are pretty bad because it's incredibly capitalistic behind that progressive facade.

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It's not a "nonissue" at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't have "muh Russia Collusion" and "Trump stealing the election", while also saying it's a "nonissue", while also claiming it's evil and "racist".
This seems like a false equivalence as there is a difference of scale and nature between (1) ineligible individuals attempting to vote in US elections and (2) multiple US government agencies confirming that Russia conducted a state-sponsored operation interfering with US elections.

Quote:
Note that I consider this to be too damn loose, and it needs to made more rigid. People should be required to show up, in person, and display their SSID and ID card (or, for first time voters, sign up there right before voting, which would include background checks).
So I should not be able to vote in elections if I am an eligible voter, but I am physically impaired and home or hospital bound? Or if I am overseas? Or if I am somewhere else in the country as part of my job? Or if I do not have a car or means of transportation to the closest election place?

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If the "gerrymandering" boogeyman was real, why do Democrats constantly make use of it?
So gerrymandering is not real but "Democrats constantly make use of it"?
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Old 09-02-2019, 02:51 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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(1) This is just ridiculous scaremongering on the absurd scale of "This is the future that liberals want: taco trucks on every street." "Illegal Aliens getting to vote" probably would do no such thing.
Outside of them not being legal citizens, not giving a damn about this country or it's history, and illegals only coming here to leech off of taxpayers (note that this includes legal immigrants), sure. It's just "scaremongering". I'm sure Caesar told the same BS to the Romans when he packed the Roman Senate with puppets.

Quote:
(2) San Francisco sucks. Take it from someone who has lived in the area, it's not a bastion of progressive politics. Nowadays, it's mostly a bunch of boomer yuppies and libertarian Tech Bros gentrifying the area and driving longtime generational families out of the area through their terrible housing policies. It also caters to the corporatization and commodification of queer culture. Sure, they vote Democrat in elections, but when it comes to living or enacting their "progressive" talk, they are pretty bad because it's incredibly capitalistic behind that progressive facade.
San Francisco is a shithole because of Leftist politics, not in spite of them: it is the end result of Left-wing welfare crap and victim hood identity politics. The Antifa mobs, drug needles, armies of poor people, shit on streets, and typhoid fever are just bonuses. It is because those "tech bros" vote Democrat, and because they do enact their "progressive" talk.

It's just that the end result isn't a glorious paradise of equality and tolerance, but a Hobbesian nightmare Hellscape. You see the same things in Caracas, Venezuela, but with more starvation.

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This seems like a false equivalence as there is a difference of scale and nature between (1) ineligible individuals attempting to vote in US elections and (2) multiple US government agencies confirming that Russia conducted a state-sponsored operation interfering with US elections.
The multiple US government agencies "confirming" that Russia used Donald Trump to attack the US were proven false, by numerous exhaustive investigations and hundreds of witnesses and interviews.

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So I should not be able to vote in elections if I am an eligible voter, but I am physically impaired and home or hospital bound? Or if I am overseas? Or if I am somewhere else in the country as part of my job?
No, you just need a witness or some other means of asserting that you are who you say you are. The cases you mentioned are pretty much the only ones who should be allowed to mail in their votes, but they still need a witness.

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Or if I do not have a car or means of transportation to the closest election place?
Uber, Taxis, and city buses exist. They are also cheaper then owning a car.

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So gerrymandering is not real but "Democrats constantly make use of it"?
No, no. Both sides do it. It is an unstoppable, and entirely natural, outcome of living in a Republic. The Romans had to deal with the same stuff, 2,000 years ago. Why should we be any different?
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  #58091  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:32 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Nope. The only ones that are backing it, are leftists like you. Illegal Aliens getting to vote would allow the Progressives to turn the USA in it's entirety into San Francisco, like what the Left is trying to do in Texas.


It's not a "nonissue" at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't have "muh Russia Collusion" and "Trump stealing the election", while also saying it's a "nonissue", while also claiming it's evil and "racist".
Thanks to right-wing propaganda, you have no idea what the difference is between election fraud and voter fraud. Voter fraud almost never happens and is what republicans are afraid of. Even donnie's taskforce for it disbanded after they couldn't find shit. Election fraud is rampant and is what republicans engage in.
I can only assume you're trolling at this point because you somehow think Russia's attacks on the United States is somehow the same thing as illegal aliens voting.
Also, where are these supposed illegal aliens voting in federal elections? Do you have any proof of this or just propaganda?


Quote:
That source is not trustworthy, as NPR is a leftist propaganda mill. Russia is an enemy, that is true. But we aren't currently at war with them. Oh, and you are leaving out that the ones who started the whole "Russians subverting our Democracy" was the Clinton Campaign and their allies in Russia.
The link provided has the Mueller report embedded. Seeing as how you're still spouting bullshit, I assume you've never even gotten close to reading it.
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/70885...ith-redactions
You can find it elsewhere if you like. The United States is under attack and you rightists are happy about it.

The United States is under attack by Russia. Only those of you that are fully controlled by right-wing propaganda and outright refuse to read the Mueller report still believe this not to be the case.


Quote:
"In my country"? Kek. I'm also American, Leftist. I can't speak to whatever Left-wing shithole State you are from, Kak, but I can speak to personal standards here in Eastern Washington:
I can do a write-in ballot, and deliver it by mail. My name, SSID, and other personal information, are checked by the voting staff so that I receive a ballot to begin with.

Note that I consider this to be too damn loose, and it needs to made more rigid. People should be required to show up, in person, and display their SSID and ID card (or, for first time voters, sign up there right before voting, which would include background checks).

Voter registration is far too loose in most States, it needs to be tighter. It often just requires a picture ID.
No, you gave up your right to call yourself an American when you became treasonous.
You're contradicting yourself here as well. You want voter ID but also claim that voter ID is too loose. Also, same-day registration is constantly blocked and fought against by the right. They like to be able to purge voter rolls.


Quote:
Because they just roll up and ask for it, or Democrats force them in. Take a nice, long look at Sanctuary Cities for how that works.
This is false. In no part of the United States can an illegal immigrant vote in a federal election.


Quote:
If the "gerrymandering" boogeyman was real, why do Democrats constantly make use of it?
This is not an argument regarding gerrymandering. Why do you believe it's fine and should be legal?


Quote:
Same case with anything you link, Genesis. There is no such thing as "unbiased". Franken cheated, and if your only response is "B-b-but Republican lies!", then it is clear you have nothing.
Didn't you just refuse to read the Mueller report because the copy I linked is hosted on NPR's site?


Quote:
And all of your "proof" for "racism" and "suppression" comes from racial victim hood organizations (like the NAACP), that exist solely to put out retarded conspiracy theories about "voter suppression" in order to gin up fears of a bunch of invisible Klansmen, which helps increase the amount of donations they get.
What? Voter suppression is a very real thing. There's really no denying it unless you live in an alternate reality.


Quote:
There is no "racism". If there were, Barack Obama wouldn't have gotten an insane amount of black votes, as black turnout was higher than white turnout in 2012. And there's this: 24 million voter registrations found to be illegal, invalid, fraudulent, or other small errors.
You should really read the articles you link. That second one reinforces my point. Voting is made needlessly complicated due to the efforts of the right.



Look, Ganishka. I know you're a rightist and you have difficulty with this, but if you're not going to argue in good faith and actually look at what's actually happening, why do you bother? All you do is post a gish-gallop of horseshit trying to see what will stick and try to force us to point out your blatant falsehoods while trying to proclaim victory when we only respond to 99 of your 100 bullet points of bullshit.
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Old 09-02-2019, 06:03 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Thanks to right-wing propaganda, you have no idea what the difference is between election fraud and voter fraud. Voter fraud almost never happens and is what republicans are afraid of. Even donnie's taskforce for it
That's because one leads to the other, and there is essentially no difference between them. Voter fraud is a major part of "election fraud". You can't say one exists without the other.

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disbanded after they couldn't find shit. Election fraud is rampant and is what republicans engage in.
Then why wouldn't you be worried about voter fraud? What about when Mark Harris beat Dan McCready using vote harvesting?

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I can only assume you're trolling at this point because you somehow think Russia's attacks on the United States is somehow the same thing as illegal aliens voting.
They didn't "attack" us, sport. If you are that paranoid and warthirsty, just go drop a nuke on them like what Hillary wanted. I'm sure it will work out fine.

Quote:
Also, where are these supposed illegal aliens voting in federal elections? Do you have any proof of this or just propaganda?
Any proof I do come up with, will just labeled as "propaganda" by a Leftist nutcase like you, Kaka, so there would be no point.

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The link provided has the Mueller report embedded. Seeing as how you're still spouting bullshit, I assume you've never even gotten close to reading it.
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/70885...ith-redactions
Which is Leftist propaganda. You are so quick to bitch about me doing it, but never realize that NPR is a Left-wing propaganda outfit.

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You can find it elsewhere if you like. The United States is under attack and you rightists are happy about it.
>Says the person who doesn't give a damn about the nation's border security, and would be fine with armies of foreigners invading us.

Quote:
The United States is under attack by Russia. Only those of you that are fully controlled by right-wing propaganda and outright refuse to read the Mueller report still believe this not to be the case.
Says the person lusting for war. We can easily blackball Russia, simply through economic sanctions alone. The United States is THAT powerful a Superpower. We don't even have to fire a shot to cripple an enemy country, or kill a single person.

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No, you gave up your right to call yourself an American when you became treasonous.

You fucking serious? And you wonder why Donald Trump won in 2016: it was crazed fruitloop bullshit like this very comment that gave Trump the win. I really hope you are prepared for Trump beating Biden, I really hope you are prepared, because with this very mindset, there is very little chance Biden will win.

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You're contradicting yourself here as well. You want voter ID but also claim that voter ID is too loose.
That's not a "contradiction", you can still want Voter ID, but want it to be tighter and better managed and controlled.
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Also, same-day registration is constantly blocked and fought against by the right. They like to be able to purge voter rolls.
Of course it is...
Especially when those "voter rolls" are filled with literal dead people.

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This is false. In no part of the United States can an illegal immigrant vote in a federal election.
Not if minders and election officials look the other way due to political bias or getting paid off.

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This is not an argument regarding gerrymandering. Why do you believe it's fine and should be legal?
Because removing it would mean nothing in the long run. But, you do have a point. Removing it is just fine.

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Didn't you just refuse to read the Mueller report because the copy I linked is hosted on NPR's site?
Why not just link the report instead of a biased shitstain like NPR?

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What? Voter suppression is a very real thing. There's really no denying it unless you live in an alternate reality.
No, it really isn't. Maybe if it were the 1960's and the Klan was violently suppressing people from voting, or Black Panthers threatening people not to vote, sure. But, there is no giant, conspiratorial scheme. That's ridiculous.

Quote:
You should really read the articles you link. That second one reinforces my point. Voting is made needlessly complicated due to the efforts of the right.
It should be complicated because it is important. Also, removing people for errors is entirely a good thing, as they clearly weren't paying enough attention.

Quote:
Look, Ganishka. I know you're a rightist and you have difficulty with this, but if you're not going to argue in good faith and actually look at what's actually happening, why do you bother? All you do is post a gish-gallop of horseshit trying to see what will stick and try to force us to point out your blatant falsehoods while trying to proclaim victory when we only respond to 99 of your 100 bullet points of bullshit.
This is the epitome of the "pot calling the kettle black". All you have done is "argue in bad faith", and then accuse of what you yourself are guilty of. Same with linking a "gish-gallop of horseshit", then acting smug when it makes no sense, or claiming that anyone who doesn't kiss your rear is either "treasonous" or "brainwashed". Hypocrisy is all you do, Kaka.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 09-02-2019 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 09-02-2019, 07:20 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Holy shit, you've eaten every single bit of right-wing propaganda and refuse to even come close to replying to any argument and instead choose to try to put words in my mouth.

Here, let's zero in on one simple fact: The United States is under attack from Russia. This is a very huge thing which you outright refuse to accept. All but the most brainwashed rightists even accept this now.
Since you refuse to look at an NPR page, here's the PDF embedded in it: https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...llerreport.pdf

Here is Mueller's testimony:

Here are some highlights from it:

Demings: Did "lies by Trump campaign officials and administration officials" impede your investigation?
Mueller: "I would generally agree with that."

Schiff: Russia committed federal crimes in order to help Donald Trump?
Mueller: When you're talking about the computer crimes charged in our case, absolutely.
Schiff: Trump campaign officials built their strategy - their messaging strategy around those stolen documents?
Mueller: Uhm, generally that is true.
Schiff: And then they lied to cover it up?
Mueller: Generally that is true

Lieu: The reason you didn't indict Trump is because of OLC opinion that you cannot indict a sitting president, correct?
Mueller: That is correct

Hurd: Did you think that this was a single attempt by the Russians to get involved in our election or did you find evidence to suggest they’ll try to do this again?
Robert Mueller: It wasn’t a single attempt. They’re doing it as we sit here


MUELLER: . . .What we did is provide to the attorney general in the form of a confidential memorandum our understanding of the case, those cases that were brought, those cases that were declined, that one case where the president cannot be charged with a crime.
BUCK: Okay, but the … could you charge the president with a crime after he left office?
MUELLER: Yes.
BUCK: You believe that he committed … you could charge the president of the United States with obstruction of justice after he left office?
MUELLER: Yes.

NADLER: So the report did not conclude that he did not commit obstruction of justice, is that correct?
MUELLER: That is correct.
NADLER: And what about total exoneration? Did you actually totally exonerate the president?
MUELLER: No.
NADLER: Now, in fact, your report expressly states that it does not exonerate the president.
MUELLER: It does.
NADLER: And your investigation actually found, quote, “multiple acts by the president that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian interference and obstruction investigations.” Is that correct?
MUELLER: Correct.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:27 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Holy shit, you've eaten every single bit of right-wing propaganda and refuse to even come close to replying to any argument and instead choose to try to put words in my mouth.
Pot calling kettle black, again.

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Here, let's zero in on one simple fact: The United States is under attack from Russia.
Just because Hillary Clinton fearmongered over it for years, does not mean that we are "war". It also doesn't mean we should just go butchering entire swathes of the American electorate for "treason" as you seem to thirst for.

Quote:
This is a very huge thing which you outright refuse to accept. All but the most brainwashed rightists even accept this now.
It's funny that you mention being "brainwashed", seeing as you swallow every bit of fearmongering propaganda put out by any shiny "news" organization.
Quote:
Since you refuse to look at an NPR page, here's the PDF embedded in it: https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...llerreport.pdf
Which found NO COLLUSION between Trump and Russia, BTW.

Quote:
Here is Mueller's testimony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFIoVAMSLX0

Here are some highlights from it:

Demings: Did "lies by Trump campaign officials and administration officials" impede your investigation?
Mueller: "I would generally agree with that."

Schiff: Russia committed federal crimes in order to help Donald Trump?
Mueller: When you're talking about the computer crimes charged in our case, absolutely.
Schiff: Trump campaign officials built their strategy - their messaging strategy around those stolen documents?
Mueller: Uhm, generally that is true.
Schiff: And then they lied to cover it up?
Mueller: Generally that is true

Lieu: The reason you didn't indict Trump is because of OLC opinion that you cannot indict a sitting president, correct?
Mueller: That is correct

Hurd: Did you think that this was a single attempt by the Russians to get involved in our election or did you find evidence to suggest they’ll try to do this again?
Robert Mueller: It wasn’t a single attempt. They’re doing it as we sit here


MUELLER: . . .What we did is provide to the attorney general in the form of a confidential memorandum our understanding of the case, those cases that were brought, those cases that were declined, that one case where the president cannot be charged with a crime.
BUCK: Okay, but the … could you charge the president with a crime after he left office?
MUELLER: Yes.
BUCK: You believe that he committed … you could charge the president of the United States with obstruction of justice after he left office?
MUELLER: Yes.

NADLER: So the report did not conclude that he did not commit obstruction of justice, is that correct?
MUELLER: That is correct.
NADLER: And what about total exoneration? Did you actually totally exonerate the president?
MUELLER: No.
NADLER: Now, in fact, your report expressly states that it does not exonerate the president.
MUELLER: It does.
NADLER: And your investigation actually found, quote, “multiple acts by the president that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian interference and obstruction investigations.” Is that correct?
MUELLER: Correct.
Nevermind that Mueller is a liar who just wants attention, proven by the Report stating the exact opposite of what he insinuated in the above "testimonies".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=Q_CkcQrVQ9g
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  #58095  
Old 09-02-2019, 11:51 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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So you believe Mueller (especially his report), the FBI, and every intelligence agency in the United States are all part of a conspiracy and lying when they say the the United States is under attack from Russia?
Can you explain what about his report is the "exact opposite" of his testimony?
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:55 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Here, let's zero in on one simple fact: The United States is under attack from Russia. This is a very huge thing which you outright refuse to accept.
Your phrasing allows for a variety of interpretations, McCarthy. When I first read you posting something like this, I had to run a quick Google search to make sure Russia wasn't reoccupying Alaska or anything. But yes, hyperbole.

I just wish you'd been this pissed off at Obama when he made his gaffe with Mendeleev, or when his response to the Crimean invasion was criticized. The narrative shift from "Democrats are soft on Russia" to "Republicans are soft on Russia" is still very recent, and it is sort of fascinating to watch.

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  #58097  
Old 09-03-2019, 04:59 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Same case with anything you link, Genesis. There is no such thing as "unbiased". Franken cheated, and if your only response is "B-b-but Republican lies!", then it is clear you have nothing.
I am not claiming that unbiased links exists. I am pointing out that you were linking a conservative op-ed piece that linked to a conservative op-ed piece that linked to a report from a conservative watchdog group that was later debunked by investigators into the election. So we are not even talking about actual journalism. (Op-ed are opinion pieces.) It was just a rabbit hole of conservative fearmongering about a preliminary report that you failed to do any follow-up research into.

You are asserting that Franken cheated without actually providing any solid evidence. The link pertains to the unfounded assertion that Franken won the election as a result of felons illegally voting. Felons illegally voting does not make a Franken a cheater. It means that the votes cast by those voters are invalid and that those individuals committed a crime. Incidentally, follow-up investigations into that report reveal that the supermajority of those accusations were false, including a fair number of cases of people voting who had the same name as felons. But this would require, of course, that you would have bothered doing follow-up research into the click bait you fall for. It's not like you have a valid excuse. We are not caught up in Al Franken's 2008 election or the recounting. It has been 10 years since. So it's not like other sources with more up-to-date information didn't exist.

Quote:
And all of your "proof" for "racism" and "suppression" comes from racial victim hood organizations (like the NAACP), that exist solely to put out retarded conspiracy theories about "voter suppression" in order to gin up fears of a bunch of invisible Klansmen, which helps increase the amount of donations they get.
It comes from actual facts, sources, and history, mate. We don't have to talk about any notions of "invisible Klansmen," just actual US policies.

What I also love about this link is how it also repeats, almost ad nauseum, how these added voter ID laws are a waste of time and money.

Quote:
If there were, Barack Obama wouldn't have gotten an insane amount of black votes, as black turnout was higher than white turnout in 2012.
I don't think that this single incident somehow disproves a lack of racism when it comes to voting rights, laws, and suppression across elections. It's similar to how people declared that racism must be over since a black man was elected president. Yes, voter turnout was greater among blacks when the first black presidential candidate for a major political party in United States history was on the ticket in 2012. Also water is wet.

Part of the problem though is that this is about voter registration and lists but not about votes cast. For example, from the link, "2 million Americans who had died were still on the books as active voters." Chances are these people won't illegally vote, though election fraud happens in their name. But what about these groups:
Quote:
It also found that nearly 2.75 million people were registered in more than one state, and that 12 million records had incorrect addresses or other errors.
As per your link, this is not some sort of vast conspiracy, it's mostly clerical and bureaucratic errors or people messing up on forms. How many people who are registered in more than one state are aware of that fact? How many of those people actually voted in different state elections? (FYI, being registered in multiple states is not a crime, though double-voting usually is. Double-voting is rare, but not unheard of.)

I suspect that most of this is benign, a result of bureaucratic inefficiencies, errors, and up-to-date information, as well as misconceptions from voters themselves. This is pretty clear from your link:
Quote:
Becker attributed these numbers to the fact that people generally had misconceptions about voter registration. He said that 25 percent believed their registration updated automatically when they changed addresses, and that 50 percent didn't know they could register at Department of Motor Vehicle sites.

"If someone's moved, their voter registration is not up to date. Mail is going out to the wrong places [or] getting returned," Becker said. "There are lines at the polls because someone's name can't be found," he said, and voter registration inaccuracy "creates problems all the way down the entire process. It drives up costs."
What your link fails to say or establish anywhere is that these voter registration includes a significant number of illegal aliens. Also, nowhere does it suggest that somehow voter ID solves this issue. If I move to a new state, register to vote there without realizing that I'm still registered in my old state, and vote in my new state's election using my SSID card then I'm not sure how voter ID actually solves the issue you are yapping about.

I don't think that people are opposed to cleaning up the registration lists for up-to-date records, though it should be done carefully such that actual eligible voters are not wrongfully removed from registration lists, which has been known to happen.

I sometimes get the feeling that you are linking things without actually critically reading them past the headline.

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Outside of them not being legal citizens, not giving a damn about this country or it's history, and illegals only coming here to leech off of taxpayers (note that this includes legal immigrants), sure. It's just "scaremongering".
I'm not sure how any of this has much actual basis or grounding in reality. I knew a number of people who were in the process of legally immigrating to the US, who couldn't vote but wanted to vote (though didn't yet) precisely because they cared about this country and its history.

Also, many studies indicate that immigrants actually aren't anymore of a leech off of taxpayers than other citizens for a variety of reasons. A big one being the comparative number of years where a citizen is effectively a dependent, costs of education, etc.

Quote:
I'm sure Caesar told the same BS to the Romans when he packed the Roman Senate with puppets.
Illegal citizens are serving in Congress now?

Quote:
San Francisco is a shithole because of Leftist politics, not in spite of them: it is the end result of Left-wing welfare crap and victim hood identity politics. The Antifa mobs, drug needles, armies of poor people, shit on streets, and typhoid fever are just bonuses. It is because those "tech bros" vote Democrat, and because they do enact their "progressive" talk.

It's just that the end result isn't a glorious paradise of equality and tolerance, but a Hobbesian nightmare Hellscape. You see the same things in Caracas, Venezuela, but with more starvation.
I strongly suspect that you're talking entirely out of your ass with little actual knowledge or experience of the policies or issues facing San Francisco and the Bay Area.

Quote:
No, no. Both sides do it. It is an unstoppable, and entirely natural, outcome of living in a Republic. The Romans had to deal with the same stuff, 2,000 years ago. Why should we be any different?
So do you want to stop gerrymandering or are you advocating for the situation to remain unchanged because it's "unstoppable, and entirely natural"?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Rome? Are you on a Rome fix? Have you been listening to white supremacists and white nationalists like Black Pigeon and Stefan Molyneux who use the fall of Rome as their false equivalences as claims about a supposed "fall" of (white) Euro-America?

Last edited by Genesis; 09-03-2019 at 06:57 AM..
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Old 09-03-2019, 06:10 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Rome? Are you on a Rome fix? Have you been listening to white supremacists and white nationalists like Black Pigeon and Stefan Molyneux who use the fall of Rome as their false equivalences as claims about a supposed "fall" of (white) Euro-America?
Ooh, can we transition discussion back to "Fallout Pacifica: Sheltered Harbor", the hit new game that has historians questioning whether the post-apocalyptic Hawaiian Empire (which still rules by the U.S. Constitution and retains the name United States of America) can still be considered American?

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Change your example a little. All of the U.S. is conquered except Hawaii and Guam. Hawaii and Guam proceed to flourish. Also the common language becomes Hawaiian and/or Chamorro. Maybe they even reconquer California (i.e. part of America), but only for a brief period, and the nation's power and culture remain centered in Hawaii the full time.

How messed up would we be, to keep calling our Hawaii and Guam nation "the United States of America" for centuries longer? When historians referred to the Americans, would we expect them to be speaking about us, or some different nation on the American continents?

Didn't it become a new nation at some point? Wouldn't the next Paradox or Sid Meier mark the two as different?
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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
Hey, don't you dare forget the US Marshall Islands, American Samoa, and the Aleutians when you talk about forming up these Pacific States of America.

Presumably if America's mainland has been conquered, we are now living in a post-Nuclear apocalypse situation. Without prewar technology, the Pacific Americans have become extraordinary seafarers using the stars, currents, and weather patterns to navigate among all their island territories like the Pacific Islanders of old.

Shit. Now I want a maritime Fallout like a post-apocalyptic Wind Waker.
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Old 09-03-2019, 06:59 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Ooh, can we transition discussion back to "Fallout Pacifica: Sheltered Harbor", the hit new game that has historians questioning whether the post-apocalyptic Hawaiian Empire (which still rules by the U.S. Constitution and retains the name United States of America) can still be considered American?
That seems up for them to decide. There was certainly a Roman Empire for nearly a thousand years without Rome and that mainly spoke Greek.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:54 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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So you believe Mueller (especially his report), the FBI, and every intelligence agency in the United States are all part of a conspiracy and lying when they say the the United States is under attack from Russia?
You keep using hyperbole as though we are getting shot at by Russia, as though there is an actual shooting war. Guess what, Kak: every country on Earth conducts internet-based tomfoolery against us, even our allies like Britain, Japan, and Israel. Singling out "Russia" is stupid and pointless. I don't remember you getting this pissed off when Russia invaded the Crimea.

Quote:
Can you explain what about his report is the "exact opposite" of his testimony?
That the special counsel's findings (which reviewed the report) "did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in it's election interference activities."

What the report did show, was that Russia interfered as a third party, one that there was no conclusive ties to the Trump campaign.

It also found no proof of "obstruction": “is not sufficient to establish that the president committed an obstruction-of-justice offence.”

“In cataloguing the president’s actions, many of which took place in public view, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgement, constitute obstructive conduct,”

“The special counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion – one way or another – as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction,”

It also stated that: “The special counsel states that ‘while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’”

The Special Counsel is an entire department, not unlike the FBI, it would be rather hard for the entire thing to be "corrupted" by Republicans. The FBI may have plenty of rats in it, for instance, but it is still useful and needed.
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