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  #126  
Old 01-21-2018, 10:09 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Remember when the Draenei, upon joining the Alliance, knelt and swore fealty to Magni Bronzebeard?


The Dwarves were the preeminent Alliance power during Vanilla.
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  #127  
Old 01-22-2018, 08:12 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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I only act condescending when people willfully ignore the obvious. Though it's nice to see hypocrisy is still present on these forums I guess.

Note I specified 'in vanilla', this is because the current state of things are different, I don't know why, no proper explanation was ever given for the shift from Ironforge to Stormwind, but I'm not as angry about it as people like to paint me as, because I still like Warcraft humans a lot.

What makes me wonder is why people are apparently so dismissive of the dwarves leading the Alliance during vanilla time. What's so wrong with it? Is it not interesting that there was a potential shift in political power to Stormwind at some point? Likely due to the return of Varian, Onyxia being killed, and then the Magni and Moira issue. Maybe Ironforge's political position was weakened by the Stormpike/Frostwolf fiasco, or the extended conflict with the Dark Irons, or any number of happenings. Line of succession in Stormwind being secured whilst not so in Ironforge? Etcetc.

Wanting this to be expanded is not out of some misplaced desire to see dwarves 'on top', again as people like to paint me as, it's a desire for a coherent and interesting story.

(As a side note, the introduction for Humans and Dwarves both mention their armies being called away)

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  #128  
Old 01-22-2018, 09:38 AM
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I'm with Mutterscrawl and Thunderbraid on this one.

Be more decent, guys.
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  #129  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:49 AM
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Bump.

Hmm...about one month to go and no previews yet.
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  #130  
Old 03-02-2018, 10:02 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
And that's weak. The Orcs under Thrall tried to be better. The Forsaken have never done this. Thrall wouldn't have grounds to trust their claims over calling it a ruse by the Scourge or something. Especially since the Tauren as a rule are all about the tree hugging while the Forsaken turn anywhere they invade into a sludge pit.
It's not like they would know how the Forsaken will operate in Cata when they joined in vanilla.
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I hope this isn't talking about the Alliance since that's not how the Alliance works (see the Death Knights and now Void Elves). The Silver Hand even helped Undead Plague victims if you remember.
Which took place after them joining the Horde.
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That's being duplicitous. I recall Thrall trying to get away from humanity in RoC.
No he wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Remember when the Draenei, upon joining the Alliance, knelt and swore fealty to Magni Bronzebeard?

https://youtu.be/L6iQ4jxvEWw

The Dwarves were the preeminent Alliance power during Vanilla.
The Alliance auction house was at Ironforge only too.

Not to mention during vanilla Stormwind didn't have a king, and it's surrounding territories were falling apart. Meanwhile Ironforge had a king, and was at a position where they could take on gnome refugees.

Lay off Thunderbraid people.

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  #131  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:19 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
The Alliance auction house was at Ironforge only too.

Not to mention during vanilla Stormwind didn't have a king, and it's surrounding territories were falling apart. Meanwhile Ironforge had a king, and was at a position where they could take on gnome refugees.

Lay off Thunderbraid people.
First of all, Ironforge had its surrounding territories falling apart as much. Are we forgetting that half their larger settlements were in the hands of the Dark Irons or the Dragonmaw?

Second, the issue is not that Ironforge would not be central to the Alliance during the times of Vanilla, it clearly was, the issue is this whole misinterpretation of the underlying reasons and further projection of Stormwind's and Ironforge's status.

The whole thing never had anything with power as far as official lore goes, it was always political. While Ironforge had its king and internal structure together, Stormwind was in disarray in this regard, the king missing and the whole administration manipulated and sabotaged by a black dragon. That's the reason Ironforge seemed to head the Alliance during Vanilla, and that's why Stormwind overtake it the moment it got its internal problems solved.

Yet instead of accepting this, I often see dwarf fans projecting this as some sort of proof that Ironforge is more powerful than Stormwind, and that it is therefore non-sensical for Stormwind to head the Alliance instead, often using outright fallacious arguments to support this notion, such as stating that Ironforge should have it far better than Stormwind thanks to the Second War, ignoring the fact that except for the capital (and do not get me started on the whole retcon that Ironforge held on during the war, that was not the case in the RTS games), the whole land was ravaged and stripped of its resources by the Horde, and that Stormwind received a massive amount of funds and manpower from the north for its rebuilding, not to mention all the refugees coming south during the Third War.
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  #132  
Old 03-03-2018, 05:19 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
It's not like they would know how the Forsaken will operate in Cata when they joined in vanilla.
1. They're Undead.

2. They turned on an army that was fighting the Legion's remnants in an act of perfidy ordered by Sylvanas.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Which took place after them joining the Horde.
The Silver Hand helping victims of the Undead Plague happened back in Reign of Chaos.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
No he wasn't.
: Great, 'cause we're getting out of here. We're leaving the human lands for good.

Sounds like getting away fom Humanity.

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  #133  
Old 03-05-2018, 01:05 PM
Pepe Stormstout Pepe Stormstout is offline

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Amazon preview is up.

Doesn't look like there's too much new information yet, aside from some minor new details. The index does give a good idea of what they chose to cover and to what extent, though.
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  #134  
Old 03-05-2018, 01:58 PM
Skullcrusha Skullcrusha is offline

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I see Me'dan in the index.
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  #135  
Old 03-05-2018, 02:55 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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I hate it
Chronicles makes wow lore seem fun.

The world of well 2nd war until frozen throne is my favorite period, but This is just (especially with the discord spoilers about vanilla)

Who would have known that the player character had gotten their powers from azeroth.
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  #136  
Old 03-05-2018, 07:04 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Thread in MMO-C discussing the preview. LOTS of excerpts.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...2#post49007682

Album with full Amazon preview:
https://imgur.com/a/lzbCV

Seems the book is defining which faction raided each raid.
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  #137  
Old 03-05-2018, 09:39 PM
Eillas Eillas is offline

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  #138  
Old 03-05-2018, 10:52 PM
Pepe Stormstout Pepe Stormstout is offline

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Originally Posted by Skullcrusha View Post
I see Me'dan in the index.
He's not actually in the book, since the volume only contains around 200 pages. It's more just an easter egg poking fun at "404 Page Not Found" and the fact that Blizzard completely avoided talking about him in the book.

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Welp... that's disappointing.
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  #139  
Old 03-06-2018, 12:07 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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  #140  
Old 03-07-2018, 07:09 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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So, the Lich King wanted an unified Azeroth under his rule because then it would be better protected against both the Legion and the Void.

It's a bit exasperating. On one side, it's certainly better than "For The Evulz!" and unidimensional villains who actually believe themselves villains and revel in it. OTOH, it's getting repetitive. Sargeras started the Burning Legion as a defense agains an Even Greater Evil™ (The Void), instead of being just a nihilist on a cosmic scale. Illidan did all the disreputable stuff he did as a defense against an Even Greater Evil™ (The Legion), instead of being just a proud and insufferable prodigy. Arthas spread the Scourge against an Even Greater Evil™ (The Legion/The Void), instead of being just a proud and arrogant Great Man™ who wanted to rule for rule's sake...

And yes, I know that the narrative still portrays their actions as condemnable, so it's not a complete white-washing, but... it's still grating. I won't be surprised if the Void becomes a last line of defense against an Even Greater Evil™ in the not-so-long term.

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  #141  
Old 03-07-2018, 08:03 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
1. They're Undead.
Irrelevant.
Quote:
2. They turned on an army that was fighting the Legion's remnants in an act of perfidy ordered by Sylvanas.
The Scourge's remnants. And it's not like the Horde would have known about that.
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The Silver Hand helping victims of the Undead Plague happened back in Reign of Chaos.
Doesn't change established lore.
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: Great, 'cause we're getting out of here. We're leaving the human lands for good.

Sounds like getting away fom Humanity.
Sounds like getting away form human lands.
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
First of all, Ironforge had its surrounding territories falling apart as much. Are we forgetting that half their larger settlements were in the hands of the Dark Irons or the Dragonmaw?

Second, the issue is not that Ironforge would not be central to the Alliance during the times of Vanilla, it clearly was, the issue is this whole misinterpretation of the underlying reasons and further projection of Stormwind's and Ironforge's status.

The whole thing never had anything with power as far as official lore goes, it was always political. While Ironforge had its king and internal structure together, Stormwind was in disarray in this regard, the king missing and the whole administration manipulated and sabotaged by a black dragon. That's the reason Ironforge seemed to head the Alliance during Vanilla, and that's why Stormwind overtake it the moment it got its internal problems solved.

Yet instead of accepting this, I often see dwarf fans projecting this as some sort of proof that Ironforge is more powerful than Stormwind, and that it is therefore non-sensical for Stormwind to head the Alliance instead, often using outright fallacious arguments to support this notion, such as stating that Ironforge should have it far better than Stormwind thanks to the Second War, ignoring the fact that except for the capital (and do not get me started on the whole retcon that Ironforge held on during the war, that was not the case in the RTS games), the whole land was ravaged and stripped of its resources by the Horde, and that Stormwind received a massive amount of funds and manpower from the north for its rebuilding, not to mention all the refugees coming south during the Third War.
Okay, I was wrong about how well in control of their territories Ironforge was. It's been a while

I also don't dispute that the central role of the Alliance has shifted form Ironforge to Stormwind.

So far I haven't seen Thunderbraid get all Ironforge supremacy so I will stand by my original sentiment.

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  #142  
Old 03-07-2018, 08:25 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
So, the Lich King wanted an unified Azeroth under his rule because then it would be better protected against both the Legion and the Void.

It's a bit exasperating. On one side, it's certainly better than "For The Evulz!" and unidimensional villains who actually believe themselves villains and revel in it. OTOH, it's getting repetitive. Sargeras started the Burning Legion as a defense agains an Even Greater Evil™ (The Void), instead of being just a nihilist on a cosmic scale. Illidan did all the disreputable stuff he did as a defense against an Even Greater Evil™ (The Legion), instead of being just a proud and insufferable prodigy. Arthas spread the Scourge against an Even Greater Evil™ (The Legion/The Void), instead of being just a proud and arrogant Great Man™ who wanted to rule for rule's sake...

And yes, I know that the narrative still portrays their actions as condemnable, so it's not a complete white-washing, but... it's still grating. I won't be surprised if the Void becomes a last line of defense against an Even Greater Evil™ in the not-so-long term.
I could've sworn that protecting Azeroth from the legion was always a part of the motivation for the post-WCIII Lich King. He didn't want to be enslaved again or somesuch. The bit with the void is new, but not that egregious.
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  #143  
Old 03-07-2018, 08:46 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Eh. Ner'zhul wanting to protect himself from the Legion is one thing. Arthas wanting to protect Azeroth from the Legion and the Old Gods (The preview explicitly associates this action with Arthas' personality) is a completely different one. It's less egotistical self preservation and more twisted misplaced altruism.

I am not even saying it's a bad thing per se (even though I resent any attempts to whitewash Arthas), just that it's becoming a noticeable trend. It's like to go-to justification for big villains. "Oh, he just wanted to act against the Even Greater Evil™".

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  #144  
Old 03-07-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Eh. Ner'zhul wanting to protect himself from the Legion is one thing. Arthas wanting to protect Azeroth from the Legion and the Old Gods (The preview explicitly associates this action with Arthas' personality) is a completely different one. It's less egotistical self preservation and more twisted misplaced altruism.

I am not even saying it's a bad thing per se (even though I resent any attempts to whitewash Arthas), just that it's becoming a noticeable trend. It's like to go-to justification for big villains. "Oh, he just wanted to act against the Even Greater Evil™".
There's a reason I specified post-WCIII lich king, though. Protecting Azeroth from the Legion was a goal of the gestalt LK personality and remained even when Arthas emerged as the dominant force in it. Considering Arthas' desire for revenge against Tichondrius that drove him to become the LK, I can see why he would share Ner'zhul's views.
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  #145  
Old 03-07-2018, 09:27 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The book not confirming the answer to the Night Elf Question is no surprise considering how them being Alliance was more down to game design constraints than being a proper continuation of WC3's events.

As for the Lich King, it was already said that Arthas' plan with recruiting champions was just a game with nothing higher to it. Obviously this is another stealth retcon.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Irrelevant
Sure it is. The Undead up until WoW (where they showed they are enemies of the living who don't allow them to plague wherever they can) have shown themselves to be enemies of the living. Thrall wouldn't have much of a case to assume otherwise for the Forsaken. Especially since Necromancy is Demon Horde magic that he banned.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
The Scourge's remnants. And it's not like the Horde would have known about that
There were Dreadlords in the army. And assuming the Forsaken did the worst wouldn't be odd.

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Doesn't change established lore
Show don't tell. And there wasn't much of a case for Thrall's Horde to be noticeably more accepting of Undead until the Forsaken were shoehorned in.

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Sounds like getting away form human lands
That Humans live in.

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  #146  
Old 03-07-2018, 11:56 AM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
So, the Lich King wanted an unified Azeroth under his rule because then it would be better protected against both the Legion and the Void.

It's a bit exasperating. On one side, it's certainly better than "For The Evulz!" and unidimensional villains who actually believe themselves villains and revel in it. OTOH, it's getting repetitive. Sargeras started the Burning Legion as a defense agains an Even Greater Evil™ (The Void), instead of being just a nihilist on a cosmic scale. Illidan did all the disreputable stuff he did as a defense against an Even Greater Evil™ (The Legion), instead of being just a proud and insufferable prodigy. Arthas spread the Scourge against an Even Greater Evil™ (The Legion/The Void), instead of being just a proud and arrogant Great Man™ who wanted to rule for rule's sake...

And yes, I know that the narrative still portrays their actions as condemnable, so it's not a complete white-washing, but... it's still grating. I won't be surprised if the Void becomes a last line of defense against an Even Greater Evil™ in the not-so-long term.
The way I read it, that wasn't Arthas's primary goal though. His main motivation was "if everyone is a zombie mindslave then there will be world peace," building on from his days as a paladin. Which I like personally. Now if only that was in any way reflected in-game.
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  #147  
Old 03-07-2018, 12:23 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
The book not confirming the answer to the Night Elf Question is no surprise considering how them being Alliance was more down to game design constraints than being a proper continuation of WC3's events.
Horde cut down elf trees. Alliance don't. Horde too strong without help. I don't see why this continues to perplex people.

Where are you people reading that Arthas was trying to protect Azeroth? Did I miss that from the preview, or did someone get an earlier copy?
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.

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  #148  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:33 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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So, Sylvanas sent emissaries to both Alliance and the Horde, and only those that were sent to the Horde returned.

As a fan of both Sylvanas and the Horde I find that incredibly stupid.

Suddenly all orcs, troll and tauren operate on a hivemind that allows safe passage for zombies just because they "know" that Thrall will accept them.

And that's considering the Lich King still being around.

Oh yeah, and those zombos represent a Zombie Queen, who is Totally Not Ner'zhul.

This situation paints both Sylvanas and the Horde as being utterly stupid. Sylvanas for believing that such an act would actually work, and the Horde for allowing something that could very well be an undercover Scourge operation.

It's like those DnD campaigns where a master assassin, a warlock, a paladin and a cleric meet in a tavern and suddenly are best friends with a common goal. Come on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Horde cut down elf trees. Alliance don't. Horde too strong without help. I don't see why this continues to perplex people.

Where are you people reading that Arthas was trying to protect Azeroth? Did I miss that from the preview, or did someone get an earlier copy?
https://imgur.com/a/1JDsG

And there's also the preview pages available at Amazon
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  #149  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:26 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Horde cut down elf trees. Alliance don't. Horde too strong without help. I don't see why this continues to perplex people.
The Alliance uses the magic that invites demons way more than the Horde does as of TFT. The Warsong Clan had to run away from the NEs when they attacked and drink demon gatorade to win. The Tauren shouldn't be enthusiastic about going to war with the NEs. And the Orcs shouldn't have the amount of troops to accomplish more than a Pyrrhic Victory.

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So, Sylvanas sent emissaries to both Alliance and the Horde, and only those that were sent to the Horde returned.

As a fan of both Sylvanas and the Horde I find that incredibly stupid.

Suddenly all orcs, troll and tauren operate on a hivemind that allows safe passage for zombies just because they "know" that Thrall will accept them.

And that's considering the Lich King still being around.

Oh yeah, and those zombos represent a Zombie Queen, who is Totally Not Ner'zhul.

This situation paints both Sylvanas and the Horde as being utterly stupid. Sylvanas for believing that such an act would actually work, and the Horde for allowing something that could very well be an undercover Scourge operation.

It's like those DnD campaigns where a master assassin, a warlock, a paladin and a cleric meet in a tavern and suddenly are best friends with a common goal. Come on...
You left out how we already have the Death Knights (the Lich King's generals) walking around in Stormwind with only rotten fruit to worry about. And the Void Elves. And the Silver Hand helping Undead Plague victims. And Thrall banning Necromancy back in WC3.
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  #150  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:14 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It's silly enough that the other Horde races would give the Forsaken the time of day; at least they hadn't seen their homelands depopulated by the undead thanks to trusted allies turning out to be minions of the Lich King. But it remains particularly ridiculous that the blood elves would lend any credence to the Forsaken claims of being "free undead" after what happened with Dar'khan Drethir and Arthas. The Scourge is known to have infiltrated the kingdoms of the living to betray them from within; it's basically how it brought down Lordaeron and Quel'thalas. And if anything, the Forsaken being in the Horde - allied to two other hated enemy races - should have seemed to Silvermoon like a sign that the whole Horde were either unwitting pawns or complicit allies in some Scourge plot.

A bunch of undead joined forces with a bunch of orcs and trolls. Three races united that all had established precedents of trying to exterminate the high elves. Nothing about that remotely says "these guys can totally be trusted now." If anything, the blood elves should have reacted to approaching Forsaken even more violently than one would expect the Alliance to, since they were sill being subjected to ongoing Scourge attacks at the time.

And Sylvanas as their leader somehow being grounds for that trust is pretty dumb, too. Essentially every single corpse in the Scourge is a person that someone trusted in life. Having a familiar face isn't remotely a reason to trust them in the slightest, because reanimating dead people who used to be living people known to the other living people and using them to kill everyone is literally the Scourge's first and foremost purpose for existing. It's outright what the Scourge does.

It just further highlights the sloppiness of the blood elves' induction into the Horde when we find out that the Alliance naturally reacted to the Forsaken in the very way that the blood elves should have reacted as well in light of everything that happened to them.

Last edited by ARM3481; 03-08-2018 at 02:17 PM..
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