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Old 06-19-2013, 06:49 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Default Warcraft III Deconstruction

Previously, on the SoL forums:

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If they're going to make a new RTS, please make WoW non-canon and start from the ending of TFT.
As if TFT was so good? Damn all of the nostalgia.
In comparison with the entire WoW lore progression that gradually gets worse because of the poor interpretation of the faction war, I'd say TFT was great.
Seconded.

I replayed TFT and RoC several times and I can assure you the perception of them being better lore are not nostalgia.

Not to mention when I made that challenge to find plotholes and crappy lore in WCIII hardly anyone had anything to say, not even small stuff.
Now I feel challenged. Warcraft III did actually have a, in retrospect rather surprising, number of pointless retcons of warcraft II. Mostly, these are minor retcons, which is part of what makes them so weird, as they seem to be rather random and pointless.
Why did the map need to be rejiggled so that Alterac was moved to the other side of a mountain range and Stratholme no longer bordered the lake with Caer Darrow?
Why was Day of the Dragon retconned to take place after Beyond the Dark Portal, rather than before it?
What's up with one-headed ogres?
Where did the blackrock&roll orcs come from? Even with the completely out-of-nowhere reveal of the dark horde in WoW, these guys still don't fit in.

(Disclaimer: Ijffdrie loves Warcraft III, as it was one of his first games and taught him how to speak english. Dissing warcraft III in his holy presence shall lead to spankings.)
The worst thing WC3 did to lore was screwing up Draenor's geography completely.

Well, and the plothole regarding orcish demon worship too.

Why don't we make a thread to discuss it? Frankly, I forgot whenever C9 asked the question mentioned above.
And now, back to the show!


Seriously, what was the point of screwing up the geography so much. I kinda get Draenor, since it's supposed to be destroyed, so not much of the original geography would be left (until TBC came along, at least), but the entirety of Lordaeron is switched up for no apparent reason.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:07 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Draenor was supposed to be DESTROYED, not turned into a single chunk of land with some little flying islands around it!

The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -The Watchers... Everything about them. Their forces somehow include human/high elven Mystics and OWLBEAR WATCHERS.
  • -For some reason, said Watchers imprisoned a poor wolf named Loki.
  • -Neither the Watchers thought twice about fighting the current head of the state, nor did Tyrande try to reason, or, I dunno, order them instead of attacking the mass security prison. ELUNE AKBAR!
  • -For some reason, Furion hates black dragons and is surprise to see any of them alive at all.
  • -For some reason, the Felwood furbolgs decided to choose the highly dangerous (and guarded) Barrow Dens for their new home, and were speedier and sneakier then the Sentinels in their efforts to find and open it. Furbolgs need none of ya Archdruids.
  • -"Bear gods". What does that mean? Why did a random group of OWLBEAR WATCHERS attack Furion? It's never explained.
  • -Everyone is okay with Tyrande slaying the prison's contingent and never mentions it ever again. Even Maiev has forgotten to say something regarding the total massacre.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:12 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Even Maiev has forgotten to say something regarding the total massacre.
She said that Tyrande should be locked in a cage because she murdered the Watchers.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:13 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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How are owlbear watchers silly? They're a sentient species and allies of the night elves.

And I was under the impression that the bear god owlbears and the watcher owlbears were two different factions.

The black dragon thing is likely a reference to a line in Day of the Dragon that stated that Deathwing had destroyed his own brood.

I'll give you the others though. ELUNE AKBAR!
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:29 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Well I meant if it had internal inconsistencies, that it changed WCII was a given.

So the only one that I feel is pertinent there is the one about the Blackrocks. And I have no problems believing that renegade groups of orcs hid on the outskirts of human civilization at the time of WCIII (think of the Warsong, for example).

Now what I am about to say may actually be nostalgia, but I really think that WCIII got it right. Any retconns or additions that were made were a good call since the end result was a very engaging and tight fantasy world.
If they had stuck with what they'd had at the end of TFT in WoW we'd be enjoying a much better story now.

Because it was a story that had moved away from the dull stereotype of "orcs v humans" and had created something very fresh and intriguing. Besides bring back the faction conflict in an artificial way another major fail of WoW was leaving the EK unwrecked by demons and leaving such a large amount of HEs alive when TFT led us to believe that most had become BEs. In truth those last two points are a part of a larger problem of neglecting past storylines, which incidentally people cared about much more than what we're dealing with now. Like it or not the inflexibility of Blizzard since WoW began, and by that I mean their unwillingness to change the status quo, had doomed the warcraft story. Everything is more or less stuck the way it was when introduced and people can't feel tension or get involved with the story when they know its underwhelming game-mechanics caused limitations.
Welp, that was my last post in the other thread.

Also, kind of a crappy name you gave it IJ, perhaps ask a mod to rename it to "Warcraft III Deconstruction"

Now, I'll give you the "slaughter the Watchers without any attempts at talking to them" though I disagree about the owlbeast who are, as IJ said, primitive but sapient servants of Elune.

The black dragon thing makes all the sense to me, given that Deathwing killed a lot of dragons and NEs (in the original WotA lore) it is reasonable that Furion, a veteran of said war, would hate him and his brood. A brood that was hunted down by everyone from that moment onwards.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:37 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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How are owlbear watchers silly? They're a sentient species and allies of the night elves.
1) They are just silly. It's like they lacked a model for the male wardens and had to use some random owlbears named "Elder Watchers".

2) Somehow in TFT they are aggressive beasts that slaughter orcish villages!

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And I was under the impression that the bear god owlbears and the watcher owlbears were two different factions.
The leader of the "bear gods" is an Elder Watcher.

In fact, the Owlbears are never referred to as such - they are only called the Watchers.

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She said that Tyrande should be locked in a cage because she murdered the Watchers.
Alright, she DID call her out on the murders.

My apologies.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:39 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Obviously, there can't be normal male night elf watchers, due to the whole gender separation thingy the night elves got going on. It apparently doesn't apply to their allies though.

And in that case, yeah, the bear god thing is a little silly.

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2) Somehow in TFT they are aggressive beasts that slaughter orcish villages!
Corrupted Owlbear?
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:43 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Obviously, there can't be normal male night elf watchers, due to the whole gender separation thingy the night elves got going on. It apparently doesn't apply to their allies though.

And in that case, yeah, the bear god thing is a little silly.
It's just... unexplained. The whole thing ends abruptly with Furion pondering on what did the owlbear mean - "Perhaps the creature was referring to the sleeping druids of the claw. But why would he call them bear gods, when they appear as I do?"...

And we never get the answer. Poor Mal wanted to be referred to as god!

Why did the owlbears attack him at all? All the Elder Watcher says is "You are unworthy to bask in the bear gods' presence!"

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Corrupted Owlbear?
Bloodbeak.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:46 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I've actually played a little more, from the Rexxar campaign. I hadn't realized I'd be able to have a "Stormreaver Necrolyte" in my party for so much of it.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You know what? We can argue about the merits and demerits of the Warcraft III storylines, but I don't think the story really is the strongest part of that game. That game sold so well and became so popular because it has fun, satisfying gameplay.

And so much STUFF went into it... so many triggers, so many customized specific units, such gorgeous cutscenes and fun lines.

It's a fun game, and it was unfair of me back in the day to throw it aside just because of its weak continuity. So what if there was a group of "Blackrock Orcs" just hanging out in Lordaeron by a "demon gate" still controlling "red dragons" over a decade after all the red dragons were freed while we have no idea where the demon gate came from or why Lordaeron never wiped them out during peacetime... don't worry about the story; it's just a fun throwback.

So what if the "peace-loving" Shaman have the same bloodlust spell that glazes an orc's eyes over and makes him battlehungry, the spell made famous by that old Horde that now supposedly worshiped demons and is a spell STILL used by the warlock-imbued Ogre-Magi in this very same game?

So what if we can't figure out how the orcs of the New Horde fit their entire population into a few human ships, clowncar style?

So what if the Order of the Silver Hand was reduced to only a handful of elite heroes instead of the mainstay of a good military force

So what if we act like the Nation of Azeroth doesn't exist, if we act like the Nation of Dalaran is a vassal to the Nation of Lordaeron, or if we have no idea what's going on in the other nations?

So what if that first Human cutscene (the meeting with Terenas) makes little actual sense, and the best way players have of rationalizing it is by saying that unaligned Stromgarde is sitting in--when you and I know that much thought wasn't put into it. It was still a really cool and dramatic cutscene.

So what if the motif of "defeat the evil guy by sacrificing your goodness and becoming corrupted" is used over and over again, for Arthas and then Grom and then Illidan? It's repetitive in terms of storyline, but it's a fun type of level to play through.

So what if the same game that decides a false-treaty ambush is too evil for Doomhammer, also decides that it's NOT too evil for Daelin Proudmoore? The point is, you get to fight enemies that ambush you!

So what if Gul'dan entered the Tomb of Sargeras with a group of Shaman, apparently? Or if these Stormreaver mercenaries often have the same spells that Shaman do?


It is a fun game; it's more fun to play than any of the others. I just don't think the storyline is a part of that.



EDIT: Why was Quel'thalas fun? It wasn't because of the storyline pleasure we had in High Elf neutrality being violated, or how it was all being done to resurrect Kel'Thuzad. It was because we saw Elven peasants and unique units!

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Old 06-19-2013, 09:43 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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There is certainly discontinuity between Warcrafts Two and Three, but in and of itself WCIII makes a fine story worthy of Blizzard.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -The Watchers... Everything about them. Their forces somehow include human/high elven Mystics and OWLBEAR WATCHERS.
  • -For some reason, said Watchers imprisoned a poor wolf named Loki.
  • -Neither the Watchers thought twice about fighting the current head of the state, nor did Tyrande try to reason, or, I dunno, order them instead of attacking the mass security prison. ELUNE AKBAR!
These can all be rationalized as game mechanics. Tyrande was attacked on sight because orders were to attack anyone who entered the prison on sight. Then the situation escalated to the point where negotiation would be pointless.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -For some reason, Furion hates black dragons and is surprise to see any of them alive at all.
Why is that surprising?

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -For some reason, the Felwood furbolgs decided to choose the highly dangerous (and guarded) Barrow Dens for their new home, and were speedier and sneakier then the Sentinels in their efforts to find and open it. Furbolgs need none of ya Archdruids.
I got the impression they were already inside when the Barrow Dens were sealed.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -"Bear gods". What does that mean? Why did a random group of OWLBEAR WATCHERS attack Furion? It's never explained.
Why does it need to be? It's a peripheral lore mechanic to drive a bit of plot, it's not meant to be a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -Everyone is okay with Tyrande slaying the prison's contingent and never mentions it ever again. Even Maiev has forgotten to say something regarding the total massacre.
What are you talking about? For one thing, Tyrande obviously didn't kill the entire contingent, as evinced by Maiev's survival, and for another Maiev does call her out on it during TFT.

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
1) They are just silly. It's like they lacked a model for the male wardens and had to use some random owlbears named "Elder Watchers".

2) Somehow in TFT they are aggressive beasts that slaughter orcish villages!
1 - "They are just silly?" Really? We know that the Night Elf military was wholly female, so why would you expect male wardens?

2 - Problem? You're surprised that a race of ancient nature spirits is inclined to attack the orcs?

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It's just... unexplained. The whole thing ends abruptly with Furion pondering on what did the owlbear mean - "Perhaps the creature was referring to the sleeping druids of the claw. But why would he call them bear gods, when they appear as I do?"...

And we never get the answer.
Kir, pay attention. The answer is that they didn't appear as he did. They were bears.

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Why couldn't Arthas figure out that Mal'Ganis and the Lich King were very beatable, without the evil sword that corrupts you?
The implication is that they weren't.

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After the Scourge went through Lordaeron and we see the cutscene of the Burning Legion encountering simple townsfolk and talking about how easy it is, where have Garithos's crew been all this time?
The implication is that Garithos only managed to get a foothold when the Legion left to go bother the Night Elves.

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I think only Baron can definitely find such moments. Me, I was searching for plotholes - what was left in plot, but never explained.
That's not what a plot hole is. A plot hole is a narrative strand that does not logically connect one event to another.

You're talking about enigmas. Enigmas are totally fair game.

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Stuff like Azsune and the whole ancient skeleton complex under Stonetalon mountain... Stuff like the Ogre Legion... The Fel Orc leaders of Alterac Blackrocks... Stuff that you need to heavily handwave to explain and fit together with the rest of the lore.
There is no need to handwave anything for Azsune or the Stonetalon dungeon. They are simply ancient relics from a time lost to history.

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If Mal'Ganis and the other dreadlords really were unbeatable, then the idiot ball falls to the Burning Legion.
Yeah, well, what else is new? But the reason Mal'Ganis was unbeatable that level isn't because he's omnipotent and invulnerable but because he's in his element and Arthas was decidedly out of his own.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:46 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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[*]-For some reason, Furion hates black dragons and is surprise to see any of them alive at all.[/LIST]
... at least they explained that in the rest of the game, what with the black dragons turning on the other dragonflights and all?
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:36 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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... at least they explained that in the rest of the game, what with the black dragons turning on the other dragonflights and all?
My apologies.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:06 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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I think the greatest legacy of WC3 is the sheer expansiveness of the game. Blizz can be forgiven for some lore hiccups because they were juggling 4 factions and a strong, world-spanning campaign mode. They might have tried to take on a little too much at times, but in the end it was a rich experience. Another issue was the strong focus on individual hero units... while this is a trend that started in WC2x, it was taken to an extreme in WC3. The Alliance and Horde campaigns were a bit on the boring side, as one was a struggling new civilization while the other was in terminal decline... so we got more focus on the two newcomers (not surprising with all the zombie fans out there).

If Blizz was clever they'd release further expansions for WC3 with more factions and more campaigns to advance the storyline. They rolled out the naga as an almost fully-fleshed out faction and modified Alliance units to represent belfs in TFT, so why not do more of that? Alas, we got WoW instead.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:50 PM
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The Alliance and Horde campaigns were a bit on the boring side, as one was a struggling new civilization while the other was in terminal decline... so we got more focus on the two newcomers (not surprising with all the zombie fans out there).
WHICH Horde and Alliance campaigns?

The RoC ones are objectively excellent as far as I'm concerned. The Alliance campaign is a great character-driven tragedy that takes a lot of Shakespearean queues (Arthas is almost more of a cackling supervillain in Path of the Damned, honestly). While the Orc campaign is almost more of a race-study but also has a lot of strong themes of redemption and war. And Grom was another really good, complex character. The Night Elf and Undead campaigns are honestly pretty weak in comparison. You spend most of the Undead campaign on that stupid High Elf subplot that really only became relevant in TFT, though the ending of the campaign is awesome. And the Night Elf campaign is way too short and doesn't really have a strong thematic focus the way the other campaigns do. Tyrande and Furion are also pretty underdeveloped in Reign, and it wasn't until Frozen Throne that we got a bit more insight into them.

The TFT Alliance and Horde campaigns on the other hand are really bad. The Alliance campaign is pretty good until they go to Outland, then it just gets really silly and out there and the narrative flow is chucked out the window for silly games. The Horde campaign on the other hand... is just nothing but silly games and NO narrative flow at all. Path of the Damned (other than Sylvanas, who feels tacked on) and Terror of the Tides on the other hand are EXCELLENT. Terror of the Tides is a strong mystery story with well developed characters and a strong antagonist. You also get a much better sense for what the Night Elves are I think. Path of the Damned is just another EXCELLENT character study and the perfect next step in Arthas' evolution as a character.
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:32 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Well, I tend to agree with the criticism that the Alliance campaign was just a very long prelude to the Scourge campaign in RoC. It was a long, slow, torturous decline (which was pretty detailed), but we didn't get to see anything but Arthas slowly going bad, all the time. By the last few missions I didn't feel like I was playing an Alliance campaign anymore. What happened to the other Alliance nations? In WC2 the Alliance campaign featured all of them. Contrast that with the Horde campaign which featured the little sub-stories of the Darkspear and the Tauren, in addition to Grom going bad and their eventual redemption. It was better than the Alliance campaign, but still a little boring after the "heady days of WC2" (to borrow a quote from Metzen). It felt like a foregone conclusion--after much killing of boars and night elves, the orcs settle into their new desert home. Yawn.

The Scourge campaign, though I'm not a big undead fan, was much more aggressive and fun because it was a new faction on the ascendancy. Sneaking around, corrupting the land and killing peasants was fun because the mechanics of the faction demanded that sorta thing. Night elves followed the defensive forest elf theme well; I remember uprooting all my buildings and throwing them into an assault while I was finishing up a level. It was Greenpeace on steroids, just as advertised.

I guess as a fan of the older games, the Alliance and Horde just felt "off" to me in RoC. Going on the offensive in Ashenvale felt good (perhaps not surprisingly with a leftover character from WC2) but otherwise it felt like some weird "frontier settlers" game (Thrall has died of dysentery!) The Alliance campaign felt tired and strange, completely obsessed with the journey of one character to the exclusion of pretty much all else--other races, characters, and nations all got the shaft.
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:03 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I actually had a lot of fun playing the Horde campaign(s). It's good that they gave us a little of Grom's perspective along with Thrall's (and then Rexxar's).

Also, it felt really good for Grunts to be useful for once, instead of the "don't even bother with these guys" type they were in the later campaign missions of WC1 and WC2 both.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:08 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I actually had a lot of fun playing the Horde campaign(s). It's good that they gave us a little of Grom's perspective along with Thrall's (and then Rexxar's).

Also, it felt really good for Grunts to be useful for once, instead of the "don't even bother with these guys" type they were in the later campaign missions of WC1 and WC2 both.
Don't they become a bit useless when you get the ogre-replacement tauren?

Yes Ashenvale was good, but that's because the orcs were back on the offensive under Grom just like the good old days. When the Horde is sitting around being Thrallish, it sucks.
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:13 AM
Andrettin Andrettin is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I actually had a lot of fun playing the Horde campaign(s). It's good that they gave us a little of Grom's perspective along with Thrall's (and then Rexxar's).

Also, it felt really good for Grunts to be useful for once, instead of the "don't even bother with these guys" type they were in the later campaign missions of WC1 and WC2 both.
One thing I liked about WC3 was that it brought water elementals back, and with more sensible stats to boot.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:33 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Ar-Gimilzor View Post
Well, I tend to agree with the criticism that the Alliance campaign was just a very long prelude to the Scourge campaign in RoC. It was a long, slow, torturous decline (which was pretty detailed), but we didn't get to see anything but Arthas slowly going bad, all the time. By the last few missions I didn't feel like I was playing an Alliance campaign anymore. What happened to the other Alliance nations?
We see them. Stromgarde and Gilneas aren't in the Alliance anymore. Dalaran and Kul Tiras are represented by Jaina and we see Antonidas. Stormwind's really friggin far away and wouldn't play a role. (Same goes for Kul Tiras really.) There's a stronger sense of logistics and heroism than there was in WC2, which was just like... a game of Risk with names.

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In WC2 the Alliance campaign featured all of them.
We don't see Gilneas. And besides that... they're... just colours. I find the Dalaran we see in WC3 more distinctive and interesting than the nations of WC2 personally.

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Contrast that with the Horde campaign which featured the little sub-stories of the Darkspear and the Tauren, in addition to Grom going bad and their eventual redemption. It was better than the Alliance campaign, but still a little boring after the "heady days of WC2" (to borrow a quote from Metzen). It felt like a foregone conclusion--after much killing of boars and night elves, the orcs settle into their new desert home. Yawn.
I suppose... I feel like the Horde's progression wasn't that predictable, and there was a question of what was going to happen to Grom. I also think Grom's sacrifice was much more satisfying than any character death in WC2.

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The Scourge campaign, though I'm not a big undead fan, was much more aggressive and fun because it was a new faction on the ascendancy. Sneaking around, corrupting the land and killing peasants was fun because the mechanics of the faction demanded that sorta thing. Night elves followed the defensive forest elf theme well; I remember uprooting all my buildings and throwing them into an assault while I was finishing up a level. It was Greenpeace on steroids, just as advertised.
The first two Scourge missions are pretty good. The High Elf campaign is just so monotonous (it's sort of like the Azjol Nerub missions except with less character development and the stakes feel less interesting). And the Dalaran thing is just more of the same. The Blackrock mission is filler at best...

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Going on the offensive in Ashenvale felt good (perhaps not surprisingly with a leftover character from WC2) but otherwise it felt like some weird "frontier settlers" game (Thrall has died of dysentery!) The Alliance campaign felt tired and strange, completely obsessed with the journey of one character to the exclusion of pretty much all else--other races, characters, and nations all got the shaft.
The beginning of the Orc campaign's pretty dull. It takes forever to find Grom, but all the missions with him are great and the overall message and themes are really strong. Same with the human campaign, and living Arthas was a more compelling character to me than RoC Tyrande, Thrall or Undead Arthas.
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2013, 02:35 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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I always try to create the ''Dead scar'' in the Quel'thalas missions.

Also, more fodder souls for Frostmourne. MY IMMERSION!
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  #21  
Old 10-22-2013, 04:51 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
We see them. Stromgarde and Gilneas aren't in the Alliance anymore. Dalaran and Kul Tiras are represented by Jaina and we see Antonidas. Stormwind's really friggin far away and wouldn't play a role. (Same goes for Kul Tiras really.) There's a stronger sense of logistics and heroism than there was in WC2, which was just like... a game of Risk with names.
Yes Dalaran was a nice touch, but that's still only 2 nations. I prefer a game of Risk with names, because you can fill in the blanks with the manual and your imagination (keep in mind this was a tiny developer working in 1995). There was a mission where you recruited the elves, fought alongside dwarves and as you moved through each region your units changed to match the local forces which was cool. Alterac was a great plot twist, and you started the game with Stormwind refugees. Overall the forces were pretty well integrated. I was expecting to see a lot more done with the individual nations (especially after we got heroes like Danath Trollbane in WC2x) in WC3... leaving them off-screen in favour of one dude was a big mistake IMO. Also, army colours were assigned randomly in WC3, which was kind of jarring for me.

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We don't see Gilneas. And besides that... they're... just colours. I find the Dalaran we see in WC3 more distinctive and interesting than the nations of WC2 personally.
Well yeah, Gilneas was isolationist. I do recall seeing some black Alliance units in a mission though...

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I suppose... I feel like the Horde's progression wasn't that predictable, and there was a question of what was going to happen to Grom. I also think Grom's sacrifice was much more satisfying than any character death in WC2.
You honestly thought there was a chance Thrall wasn't going to win? The second Grom went bad the overall outcome was pretty predictable.

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The first two Scourge missions are pretty good. The High Elf campaign is just so monotonous (it's sort of like the Azjol Nerub missions except with less character development and the stakes feel less interesting). And the Dalaran thing is just more of the same. The Blackrock mission is filler at best...
Well, the Scourge was on the march destroying everything. You have to kill the elven messengers before they can muster the defense of Silvermoon, and hold out in Dalaran... so there was quite a bit of variety at least. Plus, we got to see unique helf buildings/units.

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The beginning of the Orc campaign's pretty dull. It takes forever to find Grom, but all the missions with him are great and the overall message and themes are really strong. Same with the human campaign, and living Arthas was a more compelling character to me than RoC Tyrande, Thrall or Undead Arthas.
Well I agree that it was dull, but the Alliance was even worse by that logic because Arthas was Thrall's analogue, and he hogged virtually all of the screentime--across two campaigns, no less.
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  #22  
Old 06-21-2015, 06:33 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm not positive, but I think Kael'thas is going to come across a Helm of Valor at some point?
Forgot about that one. Found it in Ruins of Dalaran and gave it to Magroth. You can also find one when you assault the Black Temple.

Misconceptions
  • We are introduced to Garithos. Racist snide remarks towards the elves right from the start. But nothing bad. He doesn't trust Kael, and keeps the elves for menial tasks such as fixing the observatories. Ok. Nothing bad for now.
  • Dalaran is full of mutants, demons and bandits.
  • Again, for some reason Kael stashed stuff in ruined Dalaran, and around it, for god knows what.
  • Kael got himself a Lion's Ring.
  • Vashj shows and aids Kael with some boats. Did she slaughter more villages for those like Illidan did? Kael has no choice and accepts.
  • The island next to Dalaran was full of trolls and had an undead base. Killed all trolls, and destroyed the base pretty quick.
  • One of the stashes was guarded by an ogre warchief. He dropped a rune of resurrection I think and he came back to life as my ally!
  • Killed more rather unique mobs. They were golems. A moss covered golem and forgot the other one...
  • The last observatory was guarded by Snarlmane the Bloodgorger. Sent the ogre warchief as the tank, and Kael with his troops killed him. The ogre warchief didn't survive the battle.
  • Garithos shows up and his distrust grows after knowing of Kael accepting the help of the Naga.

A Dark Covenant
  • Garithos shows his true colors and takes all the human troops from Kael, thus sending him on a suicide mission against the approaching undead army.
  • Vashj shows up again, and of course, Kael has no choice but to accept her aid.
  • Saved the archers, priests and the sorceresses from the attacked bases.
  • Used the flying units to quickly destroy the new undead bases so I can focus on the main green one.
  • The commanding dreadlord, Dalvengyr, was killed by Vashj.
  • The Naga troops combined with the flying blood elf units made for a deadly combo and the undead base fell in no time.
  • Vashj plants the seeds of doubt in Kael's mind about alliances, and using demonic magic as a source of energy. Kael calls it madness. So tragic when you remember his fate! Vashj leaves when Garithos shows up. A knight spots the fleeing Naga.
  • Garithos decides Kael is a traitor. What would be the best decision in this case? Either execute Kael and replace him with someone else, or break the alliance with them. What does Garithos want to do? KILL THEM ALL
  • So instead of minimizing casualties he decided to execute Kael and all of his troops... If you can't let go of old hatreds when fighting in a goddamn zombie apocalypse then your dumbass shouldn't be in charge. Fuck Garithos.
  • Archmage Modera is said to have remained in Dalaran during all of this. But I don't know what she could have done. She was all alone, or at least with a few mages on her side while Garithos had an entire army.
  • Wonder what is Vashj's end game in all of this? Use Kael to go rescue Illidan? Maybe I'll figure it out once I replay the rest of the campaign.

Last edited by SmokeBlader; 06-21-2015 at 06:38 AM..
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  #23  
Old 06-22-2015, 12:06 PM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
[*]Garithos shows his true colors and takes all the human troops from Kael, thus sending him on a suicide mission against the approaching undead army.
Not to start an argument but I don't think this really shows Garithos in that bad a light. Assuming he wasn't lying about the other Scourge army then having the Blood Elves hold off the Scourge until he could relieve them (he does come with a full battalion I do believe) may have been a valid tactic. Additionally Kael did previously complain of being given easy tasks. Still, trying to execute all of the Blood Elves was rather excessive.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2015, 03:28 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Shadow Orb

Lord of Outland

I remember the temple as it used to be...

This mission has a hilarious start. The suicidal blood elves just walking into the green flames one by one. Illidan's dialogue during this makes it even more funny.

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I am pleased by your people's zeal, young Kael. Their spirits and powers have been honed in this harsh wilderness. Their courage alone may be enough to...
  • Akama is pretty useful with his hiding ability.
  • Used the Naga first to destroy the fel orc bases on their side, and then waited for Illidan to kill the Mistress of Torment. She was surrounded by Eredar, Doomguards and Infernals. No way I'm going there just with a bunch of Naga.
  • Before I got to Vashj I had to destroy another orc base. Had to use Akama and his broken draenei as well. Thankfully they didn't die.
  • Killed the Mistress of Torment, and freed the fel orc warlocks kept in the cages by her side. Cages of discipline. Hmm...
  • Then we went to kill the Butcher.
  • A hidden area had three snowmen doodas in it!
  • Summoned a Flesh Golem and sent him first to attack the last fel orc base. It fell quickly when the rest of the troops arrived.
  • We then killed The Master of Pain! Freed the felguards kept in cages.
  • Getting to Magtheridon was a bit tough as I didn't want to waste troops along the way.
  • The fight itself was a total massacre. Eredar, fel blademasters, infernals, and Magtheridon himself.
  • Magtheridon is defeated and Illidan takes the Black Temple for himself. His ending speech was pretty badass. Illidan reigns supreme!
  • A lot of fel orc heroes in this mission. Oh hi non cannon Rend and Maim! I'll pretend they weren't related to Blackhand.

Kil'jaeden's Command

Is KJ gonna have to choke a bitch?!
It seems I was wrong that it was an illusion. KJ is really there.

Quote:
Kil'jaeden! I was merely set back.
  • Illidan said it first! Kael is a filthy thief. Blasted elves.
  • A hint to TBC when KJ said Illidan's servitors show some promise. KJ is pretty patient given Illidan's failure. Perhaps he enjoys watching the slaughter.
  • Illidan remarks that he's totally screwed and has no choice but to go to Northrend. Vashj and Kael are ready to follow him. Especially Kael. He was burning with vengeance in his last quote.


Legacy of the Damned campaign

King Arthas
  • The Legion communication really sucks. How the hell did the dreadlords not find out Archimonde was dead? No one really bothered to tell them? Mephistroth? KJ? Anyone?
  • Arthas returns and makes the dreadlord trio run away. Kel'thuzad greets Arthas as if they're old friends meeting in town after many years. Except the town is filled with zombies, and both of them are genocidal murderers.
  • Arthas decides to kill all the living and here we go...
  • I love this mission as an undead fan. I killed so many people here. The units killed score at the end summed up to I think 700. Lorewise the number was bigger...
  • There's 9 towns to destroy. During the attacks Silver Hand paladins will keep attacking you. I had to destroy their settlement first so I could properly focus on the towns. It was a bitch fighting them. Frostmourne consumed their souls in the end. Except for Dagren to Orcslayer who ran away like a coward and joined Daelin's troops.
  • Remember Hardhome from GoT. Now imagine that massacre multiplied to 8 other Hardhomes. As well as refugees getting slaughtered across the land. That was this mission. Used Arthas to destroy the west side towns, Sylvanas the south ones, and poor Kel'thuzad kept holding the line.
  • The Lich King warns Arthas of incoming danger. And Arthas loses a level. It almost looks like the LK was punishing Arthas by taking fractions of his power away.
  • Little Timmy sold me some Frost Revenants. Damn evil children.
  • After most towns were destroyed I sent Arthas and Sylvanas to aid Kel'thuzad. All of them then attacked the last towns. I think I killed every mob on the map. Oh and yeah, no refugees managed to escape. I'm so evil!
  • The LK warns Arthas one more time and he goes home because his head starts to hurt.

A Kingdom Divided
  • Sylvanas plots the death of Arthas along with the dreadlord trio.
  • I don't know who did Detheroc's voice but I love it. If it's anything WoW lacks, it's the deep voice effects on demonic characters.
  • I wonder what those ruins were. It looked like an amphitheater.
  • Of course Balnazzar doesn't trust Sylvanas. It is in their nature to assume the worst! Aaaand he was correct. Sylvanas ended up banishing them all. Balnazzar was right!
  • Let the festivities commence.

The Flight from Lordaeron
Quote:
Kel'thuzad: So the seizures have been getting worse?
I'm having a fun time imagining Arthas having seizures on his way to the palace.

From Wowpedia: In Arthas: Rise of the Lich King is stated that Arthas ran through the city's palace not the city itself.

Fuck the book, we're talking about WC3 here! The capital is huge in this mission.
  • So Arthas and KT are walking through the palace and he enters a throne room. I wonder if it is the same throne room we all know, despite the game version not matching up. Two unique black robbed necromancers accompany them. I'll pretend they're Falric and Marwyn.
  • The dreadlord trio welcomes Arthas, the doors close, and ghouls attack. So, they ran away when Arthas confronted them, and now they send ghouls to kill him. Genius! KT gtfo because we can't have two heroes on this map.
  • Arthas is found by two necros, and they can't be Falric and Marwyn because they are killed later by Sylvanas and her banshees.
  • ''I'll not leave my subjects to be slaughtered by this rabble.'' Aww, Arthas has a good heart after all.
  • A bunch of dreadlords heroes in this mission. Killed them all.
  • It is a bit tough especially on Hard, and you HAVE to keep enough troops for the end.
  • I find an orb of venom, and boots of Quel'thalas!
  • As I said before, the capital is huge. And seeing a few mobs do unique stuff is pretty cool. Like necros doing dark rituals around corpses and stuff.
  • The abomination Bloodfeast is a bitch to fight. Not to mention he's aided by a dreadlord too... Thank goodness for Arthas being able to resurrect the dead. Revived Bloodfeast, killed the dreadlord and finally escaped. Arthas almost died and I was scared shitless by the thought of starting all over.
  • Banshees show up, posses some abominations (eww), and kill the other ones.
  • Arthas sees the capital city for the last time.

Sylvanas' Farewell

Sylvanas and her banshees kill the troops, and Arthas is left alone.
This is the only time Sylvanas has been sympathetic.
''Give my regards to hell, you son of a bitch.'' Such a badass line and it holds weight after all she's been through because of him.
KT shows up with some giant skeleton mages and kills the banshees. Sylvanas escapes and promises to Arthas she will never stop hunting him.
Arthas and KT depart on good terms. I wonder what Terenas and Uther thought when Arthas called KT a loyal friend...
KT is seen for the last time. I assume he went to Stratholme.
Arthas sails to Northrend to fulfill his destiny.

NOTE: Now that the next mission has Sylvanas I'm gonna play all her missions first and THEN go back to Arthas in Northrend. It makes more sense to me that way. So deal with it.
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2015, 04:07 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Terror of the Tides is my favorite campaign because of Kalimdor, the Broken Isles, and NAGA, but Legacy of the Damned had a lot more work put into it, and it shows with all the little extra stuff they included. It also continues the proud Blizzard tradition of having the bad guy win.

Also, KT is an absolute bro. The only real fault he had was trying to kill the living, and with everyone dead, that vice is kind of moot.
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