Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft RTS Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #776  
Old 08-01-2015, 05:00 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Not a fan of that vein of storytelling personally, if people are doomed to have the same sort of shit happen regardless, then personal agency doesn't matter.

If only people who are 'really a bad person deep down to begin with' can be corrupted, then it's not really corruption or manipulation, and it cheapens characters who actually resist corruption imo.

RoC's manual said Ner'zhul searched for someone torn between light and darkness (Arthas). Both that and his actions from Hearthglen onward point towards the "really a bad person deep down to begin with" train.
Reply With Quote
  #777  
Old 08-01-2015, 05:18 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,482

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
RoC's manual said Ner'zhul searched for someone torn between light and darkness (Arthas). Both that and his actions from Hearthglen onward point towards the "really a bad person deep down to begin with" train.
My take on that was that he pushed Arthas from the light towards the darkness to make him a suitable vessel.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #778  
Old 08-01-2015, 05:22 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,788

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
RoC's manual said Ner'zhul searched for someone torn between light and darkness (Arthas). Both that and his actions from Hearthglen onward point towards the "really a bad person deep down to begin with" train.
Torn between light and darkness usually means "could go either way", not "Sucker is gonna fall like Google 2023 stock"
__________________
This is not a signature.
Reply With Quote
  #779  
Old 08-01-2015, 05:36 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,482

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Torn between light and darkness usually means "could go either way", not "Sucker is gonna fall like Google 2023 stock"
What happens in 2023?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #780  
Old 08-01-2015, 05:56 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

Eternal
Royalpimp's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,569

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
RoC's manual said Ner'zhul searched for someone torn between light and darkness (Arthas). Both that and his actions from Hearthglen onward point towards the train.
He wouldn't be torn between light and dark if he were a "really a bad person deep down to begin with".
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
And Lordaeron

ffs I'm the only one who cares aren't I
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
Reply With Quote
  #781  
Old 08-01-2015, 07:10 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

He was quick resort to having a city torched. He was also quick to resort to stranding his troops and then double cross his hired goons right after. Mind you, he didn't have Frostmourne for either of those incidents.

He might not have been Death Knight level, but he was shady. I have the impression his "light" was how chipper he was when he wasn't in smash mode, and his "darkness" was how brutal he was.

Last edited by Galdus; 08-01-2015 at 07:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #782  
Old 08-02-2015, 02:52 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Arthas was always weak, Arthas was always self-centered and self-righteous.

Arthas was not always a bad person, but he absolutely had the potential to be one.

Quote:
Does he still have agency? On the one hand, he's making his own decisions, and will do so even in cases you can't possibly have foreseen and pre-programmed him for. On the other hand, all the decisions he makes are the result of your alterations to his fundamental essence as a person. On the other other hand, if you do regard this as the destruction of agency or even personhood, what exactly is the border for this sort of thing? Obviously, your mind naturally changes over time, partially due to the influence of those around you.
Thing is, though. Ner'zhul spoke to him through the sword, but it was Arthas who chose to heed it, Arthas who chose to seek it out, Arthas who chose to pick it up to begin with. He was manipulated, but that manipulation wouldn't have worked if Arthas hadn't made the choices that he did.

And I don't think he regretted it at all.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

Last edited by Aldrius; 08-02-2015 at 02:54 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #783  
Old 08-02-2015, 03:00 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

I've seen the interpretation that the past voices in TFT's Ascension cutscene were Arthas looking back on his crimes in guilt.
Reply With Quote
  #784  
Old 08-02-2015, 03:59 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,788

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
What happens in 2023?
Google's newest model of self-driving car turns out to have serious security vulnerabilities.
__________________
This is not a signature.
Reply With Quote
  #785  
Old 08-02-2015, 07:55 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,482

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Arthas was always weak, Arthas was always self-centered and self-righteous.

Arthas was not always a bad person, but he absolutely had the potential to be one.
All things I am not a fan of the novel for.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #786  
Old 08-02-2015, 03:28 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
All things I am not a fan of the novel for.
For what? That's implicated in the game too. Arthas was not a great person before becoming a death knight.

Arthas was a hero when it was easy to be a hero, the problem is he had this image of himself as this great conquering hero that he wasn't; an image of himself that he couldn't live up to. Which is why he does stupid things, it's why he mavericks himself.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #787  
Old 08-02-2015, 03:51 PM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

Eternal
SomeRandomEvilGuy's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: England, Great Britain, Soon to be United States of Europe
Posts: 2,538

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Arthas was always weak, Arthas was always self-centered and self-righteous.

Arthas was not always a bad person, but he absolutely had the potential to be one.
I disagree with that. He followed the path of vengeance, true, but I don't think he was weak. Purging Stratholme was, in my opinion, a hard choice. He made it quickly but a quick decision was necessary (talking from the WCIII point of view here). That situation in particular could actually suggest Uther and Jaina were weaker; neither was willing to truly confront him about his decision. He may have sought to be a hero but he was very willing to accept aid.

Arthas was a hero in a lot of ways. The first unequivocally wrong act he makes is betraying his mercenaries. Even then mercenaries aren't exactly a scrupulous lot.

He went against what his peers were saying when he felt it necessary. From Uther, to Jaina, to Muradin, he was willing to stand for what he believed in by any means necessary. Which speaks to me of strength of character.

Unlike the book version which seems to have is totally and completely consumed by the trauma of what happened with his horse. I dislike what that book did to Arthas.
__________________
"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag."
- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC
Reply With Quote
  #788  
Old 08-02-2015, 03:53 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,482

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
For what? That's implicated in the game too. Arthas was not a great person before becoming a death knight.

Arthas was a hero when it was easy to be a hero, the problem is he had this image of himself as this great conquering hero that he wasn't; an image of himself that he couldn't live up to. Which is why he does stupid things, it's why he mavericks himself.
Implied in the game where?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #789  
Old 08-02-2015, 04:23 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Implied in the game where?
All over the place: the dialogue he says, the way he behaves, the way he acts towards those he loves. He's just a weak person. He has no conviction to his people or his principles. As a human paladin he was basically a self-righteous thug who was spoiled beyond belief. Making 'hard choices' (only one of which was even remotely understandable, and even then he botched it horribly) doesn't excuse him as a person. It might make him some what sympathetic I guess, but that doesn't mean he was a good or a strong person.

He's honestly a way more likable person as a Death Knight. More convicted, more honest, he forms genuine bonds with his allies. Especially in Frozen Throne he's just so much more genuine. It feels like he's got too much to prove in Scourge of Lordaeron.

Quote:
Arthas was a hero in a lot of ways. The first unequivocally wrong act he makes is betraying his mercenaries. Even then mercenaries aren't exactly a scrupulous lot.

He went against what his peers were saying when he felt it necessary. From Uther, to Jaina, to Muradin, he was willing to stand for what he believed in by any means necessary. Which speaks to me of strength of character.
He took the easy way out in all those circumstances. He whined and complained when Uther didn't go along with his plan and wasn't even willing to discuss the alternatives at all. And Uther did stand up to him -- the proper way. Going to the king.

I haven't read the book at all btw. So no opinion on it. Though I don't like the sound of a lot of it.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #790  
Old 08-02-2015, 04:43 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

The book cut out Arthas calling Kel'Thuzad a loyal friend. And goes out of its way to tell you that no, Arthas doesn't rate KT highly (he didn't rate Ner'zhul and other fellow Scourge highly either) .

That says it all, really.

Last edited by Galdus; 08-02-2015 at 05:09 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #791  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:34 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Yeah I hate that. Screw moral complexity I guess.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #792  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:49 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of it is down to trying to be consistent with WotLK's portrayal of Arthas as a bumbling Sauron wannabe who was hogging the spotlight away from Ner'zhul against how much of it from Golden not playing the Undead Campaigns.
Reply With Quote
  #793  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:01 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,482

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
All over the place: the dialogue he says, the way he behaves, the way he acts towards those he loves. He's just a weak person. He has no conviction to his people or his principles. As a human paladin he was basically a self-righteous thug who was spoiled beyond belief. Making 'hard choices' (only one of which was even remotely understandable, and even then he botched it horribly) doesn't excuse him as a person. It might make him some what sympathetic I guess, but that doesn't mean he was a good or a strong person.
I just can't agree and don't see where you get that from the campaign
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #794  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:15 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

So Arthas didn't do anything wrong when he suspended Uther's forces for their commander not going along with purging a city? Or when he double-crossed his hired goons to protect his skin?

Come on, he was more offended at hiring mercenaries than stranding his troops.

Last edited by Galdus; 08-02-2015 at 10:21 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #795  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:39 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
Honestly, I'm not sure how much of it is down to trying to be consistent with WotLK's portrayal of Arthas as a bumbling Sauron wannabe who was hogging the spotlight away from Ner'zhul against how much of it from Golden not playing the Undead Campaigns.
I have no idea what the cause of it was.

Quote:
I just can't agree and don't see where you get that from the campaign
Okay. That's fair I guess.

I just think that anyone who's willing to purge a city without a second thought or who betrays his own mercenaries, or alienates everyone who loves him is more concerned with his own glory than he is with actually helping people. And he does things not out of personal strength, but out of trying to prove something.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #796  
Old 08-03-2015, 07:52 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,482

Default

I never saw any of it as glory or trying to prove something he was just on the vengeance train and no one could talk him off of it.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #797  
Old 08-03-2015, 04:02 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

Remember how Arthas got indignant at Hearthglen?
Reply With Quote
  #798  
Old 08-03-2015, 05:53 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I never saw any of it as glory or trying to prove something he was just on the vengeance train and no one could talk him off of it.
It was completely for glory.

That whole speech at Stratholme is completely self-aggrandizing. It had nothing to do with vengeance. And if it did, it was because Mal'ganis made him look like a fool and prevented him from being the hero that he wanted to be.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #799  
Old 08-03-2015, 06:10 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

Banished
Galdus's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,346

Default

If Arthas wasn't shady to begin with (to the point of accepting a role in the Scourge), then how come he didn't leave the Scourge in TFT or at least leave Ner'zhul to his fate?

Last edited by Galdus; 08-03-2015 at 06:15 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #800  
Old 08-03-2015, 06:40 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,018

Default

Well I think it's more complicated than that, and I wouldn't call him 'shady'. It's more that he was more self-motivated than he claims to be. Even the phrase 'you weren't there to see what Mal'ganis did to my homeland'. It's all about him.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
blizzard apologist, ragestalgia, roaring twenties, warcraft, warcraft iii

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.