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  #451  
Old 02-28-2019, 06:03 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It's an interesting thought. Every now and then I've gotten excited about retrolore timelining, but then remembered how much of it is a guessing game. Was this a typo? Were these written by different people? Was this discrepancy a mistake, a retcon, or a clarification? And so on.

Aegwyn's line about forty-two winters always gives me fits. The number forty-two is so very specific, but its context is so very unclear.

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With this power came one grave burden - The Guardian must not interfere with the affairs of men until the time comes when a successor must be chosen and the mantle of guardianship is passed to another.

Thus did I - Aegwyn, last Guardian of the Order of Tirisfal - judge that my time had come. Forty-two winters had passed since I first came to the kingdom of Azeroth in search of the Conjurer Nielas Aran. It was he whom I had chosen to sire the heir of my powers. Nielas was exceptionally talented in the simple conjurative magiks of men, and I believed that he would be the perfect mortal father for my child... and so he was...

I gave birth to a son and named him Medivh
The grammar is bad. If she is saying 42 winters had passed since she sought Nielas Aran, then she should proceed to tell us what happened AFTER those 42 years. First I sought Nielas Aran, then 42 winters passed, then... then what? She doesn't proceed to tell us what came next; she tells us about finding Aran and birthing Medivh. I doubt she had a 42-year pregnancy.

Unless she found Aran 42 years before approaching him to conceive Medivh.

We often resolve this by interpreting her sentence to read: "Forty-two winters HAVE passed..." thus marking Medivh's conception as 42 years before the present day of WC2. But of course, that's headcanon. It's us fans deciding that Blizzard made a typo or grammar error. And we have no way of knowing.

Such headache; such fun.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 02-28-2019 at 06:05 AM..
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  #452  
Old 02-28-2019, 06:23 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think that Beyond the Dark Portal Manual was not written by Metzen himself (he is credited only as story consultant as opposed to Warcraft II), although it's hard to infer from the credits, as unlike Tides of Darkness Manual, no author is directly credited.

But at least, there's a precedence for that being a typo. Korgath vs Kargath, which had not been repaired for the Battle.net edition of the manual either. Not saying it confirms it, by no means of course, but at least it makes it a possibility. through precedence.

As for the Aegwynn thing, past perfect there has always been strange, but any other explanation bar a grammar error is so outlandish that I take it more or less for granted.
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  #453  
Old 02-28-2019, 06:46 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I think that Beyond the Dark Portal Manual was not written by Metzen himself (he is credited only as story consultant as opposed to Warcraft II), although it's hard to infer from the credits, as unlike Tides of Darkness Manual, no author is directly credited.

But at least, there's a precedence for that being a typo. Korgath vs Kargath, which had not been repaired for the Battle.net edition of the manual either. Not saying it confirms it, by no means of course, but at least it makes it a possibility. through precedence.

As for the Aegwynn thing, past perfect there has always been strange, but any other explanation bar a grammar error is so outlandish that I take it more or less for granted.
You know, 606 wouldn't even have to be a typo to be incorrect. There is so much difference between the BtDP manual and the BtDP in-game that they are arguably different directions of lore.

We're talking about the year 606 crossing of the Bleeding Hollow right now, but of course that event itself never happened in-game, at least not as described. Ner'zhul relinks with the Bleeding Hollow after crossing into Azeroth, as we know.

We could equally speculate on Alliance membership during this period. Since the manual pretends Azeroth-Stormwind, Lordaeron, Stromgarde, and Gilneas were the only relevant nations, with the former two being the only members remaining in present day. Nevermind the Kirin Tor cooperating in Nethergarde, referenced in the same manual.
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  #454  
Old 02-28-2019, 07:08 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You know, 606 wouldn't even have to be a typo to be incorrect. There is so much difference between the BtDP manual and the BtDP in-game that they are arguably different directions of lore.

We're talking about the year 606 crossing of the Bleeding Hollow right now, but of course that event itself never happened in-game, at least not as described. Ner'zhul relinks with the Bleeding Hollow after crossing into Azeroth, as we know.
I don't think there is any discrepancy in this case? The mission text clearly describes those Bleeding Hollows found on Azeroth as a part of the clan that did not cross back. Or am I missing something?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dragons_of...Spire_(WC2_Orc)

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While securing the rift and beginning construction of a new portal, your encampment is approached by a haggard Grunt. His uniform marks him as a warrior of the Bleeding Hollow. He tells how those of his clan who did not return through the Portal have eluded capture and imprisonment by the Alliance armies.
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
We could equally speculate on Alliance membership during this period. Since the manual pretends Azeroth-Stormwind, Lordaeron, Stromgarde, and Gilneas were the only relevant nations, with the former two being the only members remaining in present day. Nevermind the Kirin Tor cooperating in Nethergarde, referenced in the same manual.
I don't think there was any contradiction there either? Kul Tiras' status was left dubious, aye, but later clarified. And one could easily make an argument that it was left dubious as to make the revela of its status a surprising moment somewhat.

As for Dalaran, you can just imagine that it was counted as part of Lordaeron at that point or not rebuild yet and therefore not an important geopolitical actor. I mean, we had had endless debates whether was the retrolore Dalarana a fully sovereign nation or a protectorate of Lordaeron anyway.
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  #455  
Old 02-28-2019, 08:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I don't think there is any discrepancy in this case? The mission text clearly describes those Bleeding Hollows found on Azeroth as a part of the clan that did not cross back. Or am I missing something?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dragons_of...Spire_(WC2_Orc)
I'm sure I was reading into things the wrong way, but I know why. It's because the orcish Act 1 on Draenor mentions every single clan except Bleeding Hollow, and we first start hearing about the Bleeding Hollow only after you cross the Portal and meet that haggard grunt. [EDIT: Plus the Act 1 map doesn't include "Bleeding Hollow Lands", though granted their southwest territory would've been off-map like the Laughing Skull.]

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I don't think there was any contradiction there either? Kul Tiras' status was left dubious, aye, but later clarified. And one could easily make an argument that it was left dubious as to make the revela of its status a surprising moment somewhat.
I don't care for the omission. And as far as the in-game surprising moment is concerned, it's unclear when Kul Tiras left... they fought alongside Kingdom of Azeroth in the previous two levels (New Stormwind and The Seas of Azeroth), so they may have left very recently before the Horde invaded them. Manual clarification would've helped.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 02-28-2019 at 08:11 AM..
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  #456  
Old 02-28-2019, 11:59 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I mean, let's not kid ourselves, contextualization has never been Warcraft's strong point, even in Warcraft II. But then again, it's also fair to mention this lack of proper definition has (Or had? Not sure if the approach wasn't changed) been a result of creative vision. Many different materials (the making of Warcraft, Staats' Warcraft diary) speak how Metzen and Blizzard did not want Warcraft as a full-fledged fantasy setting, but more a background that players could fill according to their own needs.

Last edited by Marthen; 02-28-2019 at 12:24 PM..
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  #457  
Old 02-28-2019, 04:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I mean, let's not kid ourselves, contextualization has never been Warcraft's strong point, even in Warcraft II. But then again, it's also fair to mention this lack of proper definition has (Or had? Not sure if the approach wasn't changed) been a result of creative vision. Many different materials (the making of Warcraft, Staats' Warcraft diary) speak how Metzen and Blizzard did not want Warcraft as a full-fledged fantasy setting, but more a background that players could fill according to their own needs.
I think Blizz failed to realize that those same loose constraints as background crippled the ability for a lot of people to view it as a background or fill according to their needs.

Ex: Horde players who have a hard time enjoying the faction because of its aesop amnesia.
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