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  #551  
Old 03-23-2014, 05:58 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Notes left over from last mission
Another note on Kel'thuzad's power I didn't think about before: his ghost state. He's apparently able to become a fully sentient, bound ghost, which not even Tichondrius himself saw coming.

Weird, minor note, but I do find it funny that the first time we got to see a haunted gold mine was with the mogu, in Pandaria. And it's certainly not for a lack of scourge-operated mines in Northrend. Though really, the whole undead economy is thrown out for their WoW appearances. Always found that a bit of a shame. Deathholme was a good start, but after that, it shifted more towards templish and new-arthas style.

Always liked how trees become instantly blighted when harvested by ghouls.

Tichondrius, those souls will go straight to your thighs! I actually really like his appearance in this level. Shows that the dreadlords are aiding, just in ways you don't necessarily see.

PANDAREN RELAXATION AREA! Did we ever figure out which pandaren relaxed here?

It always annoyed me a little that you couldn't scourge the villages themselves because the buildings were doodads.

Have I mentioned how much I miss non-over the top voice acting?

Now that I've seen that the tents have the flag of gilneas on them, I can't unsee it. Why is Gilneas everywhere?

The Dreadlords Convene
It's a nice preview for the legion, but doesn't serve much of a purpose.

Anatheron is kind of being waaaay out of line, isn't he? Or did he get promoted over Tichondrius all of a sudden?

It strikes me how much less undead the legion has gotten over the course of WoW. Back here, they had their own revenants and abominations, we saw skeletal minions in other missions, and they were linked to the undead of warcraft II. It seemed from this game that most of the scourge's undead stuff came from the legion. However, as soon as WoW entered the fray, the legion lost all of their undead. I guess for reasons of thematics.

Into the realm Eternal
Aaah, wondrous eternal Quel'thalas... Loved this place as a kid, love it now. The nature aesthetic used here really holds up well.

There's a few missions in WoW where I always wondered if they couldn't have integrated creep and campaign units into the construction list a little better. There's many missions where it's done very well (I love the illidan mission in particular), but in many others, there's missed opportunities. I feel that in Quel'thalas in particular, we could have used more low-grade scourge units. This is the scourge overwhelming a kingdom through sheer force after all. I'd have loved to see waves of skeletons or zombies aid in the assault. Then have us switch to more high-end units to deal with Dalaran's shield. On the other hand, Warcraft III really is more oriented towards small, elite forces, so placing lower-level units in the hands of the player may just be inconvenient as buttocks.

Heh, HE archer's have golden eyes. Guess that means they've got a talent for druidism, right?

When you encounter the hostile gnolls, an acolyte says that "the creatures of the forest are also resisting our invasion". Given how much the elves were in-tune with the forests here, I always assumed that meant the gnolls were allied to the elves (at least, before TBC dashed that idea).

Anyone else get the feeling that the only reason the supply limit is set at the rather arbitrary 90 is so they could increase it to 100 in the expansion?
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  #552  
Old 03-24-2014, 08:33 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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The Alliance got crushed in Warcraft III. It was so bad back then that pretty much everyone considered Jaina to be the de facto leader of the Alliance. She was the only character to survive to the end, and she basically lived and died on a whim from the Horde.

I suspect the only reason why they rebuilt Stormwind and developed Ironforge was so that they could be torn down at a later time.
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  #553  
Old 03-30-2014, 05:19 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Playing through Kir's enhanced campaign, and I noticed something on the 'dreadlords convene' cutscene (which had the original dialogue, so it's not due to alterations): Tichondrius doesn't really seem to be in charge. Both Anatheron and Mephi...whatever the rest of his name was seem to be addressing Tichondrius as equals rather than subordinates.
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  #554  
Old 03-30-2014, 06:22 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Wait, what's this enhanced campaign?
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  #555  
Old 03-30-2014, 07:01 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Wait, what's this enhanced campaign?
Some fella on the net took the RoC campaign and made it a bit harder and more varied. Then Kir made his own private more lore-friendly and even further extended version from tat. He's referenced it a few times in this thread. It's really quite good, though a tad on the hard side.
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  #556  
Old 03-30-2014, 08:39 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Anyone else get the feeling that the only reason the supply limit is set at the rather arbitrary 90 is so they could increase it to 100 in the expansion?
I always felt that the supply limit (in general) was bogus. And upkeep. Don't get me started on upkeep.
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  #557  
Old 03-30-2014, 08:40 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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I always felt that the supply limit (in general) was bogus. And upkeep. Don't get me started on upkeep.
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  #558  
Old 03-31-2014, 01:46 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Some fella on the net took the RoC campaign and made it a bit harder and more varied. Then Kir made his own private more lore-friendly and even further extended version from tat. He's referenced it a few times in this thread. It's really quite good, though a tad on the hard side.
Do you have a link?
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  #559  
Old 03-31-2014, 02:22 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Do you have a link?
I'd want to play the campaign too.
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  #560  
Old 03-31-2014, 05:32 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Send a PM to Kir and ask to get hooked up

Key of the Three Moons
Environmentally, it's basically just a repeat of the last mission, but with added rivers blocking your path and waygates to cross them.

Speaking of those waygates, I always assumed in Warcraft III that they were an elven thing. We only ever saw them in the Kaldorei territories in Kalimdor and the Sin'dorei territories in Quel'thalas after all, and their general architecture seemed to match the high elf barracks. WoW's waygates on the other hand solely seem to be titan things, with all the old ones lost in the resize.

The key of the three moons: Wait what? What three moons? Are the high elves trying to create their own artificial third moon? Do they think the sun is a moon? Are they actually aliens who have taken over the minds of the fleeing highborne? Is this entire set-up brand-new and are they including the pale lady?

I do like that modern lore has changed this gate to an energy barrier, because with the flying units at our disposal, a physical gate wouldn't make much sense, unless it was a ahn'qiraj deal.



The enhanced version does wonders for the elven levels. All buildings are replaced with elven counterparts, unit list is expanded with proto-spell breakers, elven knights and hydromancers. Elven heroes are wide-spread, with rangers, sorcerors (proto-blood mages) and archmages. There's two chars that have bugged names (the editor shows them with russian names), but googling them shows the cool dude be Warmage Yurias. No idea who the central ranger is though.


edit: removed personal stupidity.
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  #561  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:58 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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That mission with the name
Okay, so we're at the fall of Silvermoon. I mean Quel'danas. Or did I mean Silvermoon?

Yeah, another infamous 'wrong map' situation, though this gets carried through into the mission. Somehow, we're attacking a single city that is two cities, separated by the ocean. It's just bizarre. Plus, wasn't this the game that introduced Quel'danas and the Sunwell to begin with?

Both in warcraft III, TFT and later lore, it's clear that Kel'thuzad's lichification didn't drain the sunwell. It was just corrupted. So why didn't the scourge fortify the place? The corruption isn't going to do them any harm, and they can create undead from people they normally wouldn't be able to here.
Yes, I'm just saying this because I want an undead Thoradin boss, is that so wrong? Also, because it makes more sense in universe. Mostly the Thoradin thing though.

If you brought the gargoyles from Northrend, why are we only using them now? To be fair, the introductions for new undead units rarely make sense and feel very artificial.

So how did Silvermoon'danas not realize that they were being invaded? Has Sylvanas really forgotten to send a messenger to inform them "Oh hai, undead at doorstep, ready army, 'kthx"?

There really isn't much else to talk about, so let's just talk about something random; Things altered before release. In the creation process of warcraft III, there was a pretty significant artistic shift (which is natural, considering how much the concept was altered). It's especially noticeable with the undead, who had a more temple-like style, with much, much heavier nerubian influences. Warlock has some nice pics in his gallery. While I'm browsing anyway, here's a nice warcraft II throwback for Grackle: Troll lumber mill. What you'll also notice in that troll lumber mill picture is that the style for orcs didn't really change much. Same for humans. So I'm kinda wondering what spurred the change to the undead because frankly, I really like the look of those older versions.

(on a nigh-obsessive note: The gilneas emblem has always been there. The Gilneas Emblem Has Always Been There.)


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  #562  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:08 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Apparently, the early Human Barracks also has the Stromgarde emblem and the Elven Ranger is also a playable Hero (RoC was apparently going to have 4 Heroes per race, Shadow Hunter for the Orcs). This is funny because Stromgarde, Gilneas, and Silvermoon have very visible representation in the early models and techtree but in the final lore setting, they left the Alliance.
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  #563  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:10 AM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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The key of the three moons: Wait what? Okay, the name is obviously there to justify using the night elf altars of the moon models (the implications of which basically got ignored later on, though I guess you can try to tie it astromancy), but three moons? Are the high elves trying to create their own artificial third moon? Do they think the sun is a moon? Are they actually aliens who have taken over the minds of the fleeing highborne? Is this entire set-up brand-new and are they including the pale lady?

I do like that modern lore has changed this gate to an energy barrier, because with the flying units at our disposal, a physical gate wouldn't make much sense, unless it was a ahn'qiraj deal.
They were at altars of kings, and the night elf version is the altar of elders.

It is called that because it looks like:

The energy barrier is there in lore (it might have even been mentioned in Warcraft III), but the gate is ambiguous. A:RotLK doesn't confirm or deny a second gate, but there are no elfgates where they should be in WoW.

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Yeah, another infamous 'wrong map' situation, though this gets carried through into the mission. Somehow, we're attacking a single city that is two cities, separated by the ocean. It's just bizarre. Plus, wasn't this the game that introduced Quel'danas and the Sunwell to begin with?
It introduced a "Sunwell Grove" separate from Silvermoon. Quel'danas was first mentioned in the RPG as an island dragonhawk aviary.

And you attack from the north, even.
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  #564  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:12 AM
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They probably left in the lore because time-constraints and game-play mechanics.

I imagine that the reason they didn't fortify the Sunwell is because they needed the entire Scourge to assault Dalaran? Say what you will about the High Elves, but numbers they did not have. They've always been the type to make ever loss as painful for the enemy as possible. The Scourge may have only broken even in terms of bodies they gained from that campaign.
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  #565  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:17 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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They were at altars of kings, and the night elf version is the altar of elders.
Yeah, it appears I was confused there. Whoopsie.

Quote:
It is called that because it looks like:
It's still a bit of an oddity for them to go "Hey, you know what? Let's shape our key after three moons!" "Why? There's only two." "Shows what you know, pup. Everyone knows we got more of everything up here in Quel'thalas".
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:33 AM
Egrem Egrem is offline

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So how did Silvermoon'danas not realize that they were being invaded? Has Sylvanas really forgotten to send a messenger to inform them "Oh hai, undead at doorstep, ready army, 'kthx"?
Wasn't killing all of her messengers (before they make it to the city) one of the bonus objectives?
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  #567  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:56 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Wasn't killing all of her messengers (before they make it to the city) one of the bonus objectives?
Yep, wasn't hard to have the gargoyles off them but if they got through you basically had to deal with two armies at once.
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  #568  
Old 03-31-2014, 10:19 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Wasn't killing all of her messengers (before they make it to the city) one of the bonus objectives?
Yes, but I mean in the prior missions. How is it that she's only now sending those messengers?
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  #569  
Old 03-31-2014, 03:20 PM
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Yes, but I mean in the prior missions. How is it that she's only now sending those messengers?
My interpretation is that the Scourge assault was just so forceful that there was no chance for them to send a message. Potentially those gargoyles were killing previous scouts off-screen. Not to mention that one of the themes of WCIII was the inevitability of the fall, it is reasonable that demons or Ner'zul worked behind the scene to ensure Arthas' success.
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  #570  
Old 03-31-2014, 03:22 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Or they were too busy defending themselves while Arthas blitzkrieg'ed his way to the Sunwell.
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  #571  
Old 04-01-2014, 05:47 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Would you want to lose because the other guy lagged you out of the game?
Other guy? What, like multiplayer?

PFFFF to multiplayer games.
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  #572  
Old 04-02-2014, 07:26 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I think it was just too complicated logistically to get Arthas to the Sunwell if it was on an island off the coast.
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  #573  
Old 04-02-2014, 08:17 PM
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I think it was just too complicated logistically to get Arthas to the Sunwell if it was on an island off the coast.
In the novel, he froze the strait.
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  #574  
Old 04-02-2014, 08:43 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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They tried avoiding maps with huge bodies of water because they didn't have naval units until Frozen Throne. As for the frozen bridge, there's a frozen bridge model but it also came at Frozen Throne.
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  #575  
Old 04-07-2014, 07:00 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Yeah, but they only introduced that strait of water in this very game. There would have been no problem crossing it if, say, the sunwell had just been in Silvermoon, like it basically appears in-game.



Let's talk about Tichondrius for a bit. Now that I'm replaying this, I'm kinda disappointed with him. For this grand trickster and corrupter, his entire role in this game seems to boil down to: "Doesn't realize what's really going on". He doesn't recognize the lich king's betrayal and maintains absolutely no oversight over Arthas after the battle of Dalaran. He doesn't recognize either Kil'jaeden or Medivh still being around in ghost forms. He's incapable of summoning Archimonde. He doesn't do anything during the conquest of Lordaeron but stand on the sidelines. And when Illidan transforms, the guy seems genuinely surprise and confused. Hell, he doesn't even get any respect from his underlings.



And as for my Gilnean tent obsession, this is how the map editor describes them: "A canvas tent decorated with strange markings." Man, even the map editor doesn't know what Gilneas is in this game.
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