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  #10651  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:14 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Err. No. While Tybalt really didn't intent to kill Mercutio and vice versa, his duel with Tybalt only happened because Romeo refused to fight him at all due to Romeo seeing Tybalt as kin.

He wasn't attempting to defuse the situation, because Romeo had already said no to the entire thing.
>MFW someone takes what Shakespeare wrote at face value
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10652  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:29 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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>MFW someone takes what Shakespeare wrote at face value
He was kind of a hack.
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  #10653  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:33 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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He was kind of a hack.
I will fight you.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10654  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:41 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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It would be very sad to lose PJ...
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  #10655  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:53 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
It would be very sad to lose PJ...
The problem we have is that the actions being taken are being justified because "It's driving people away from the forum".

Problem is, the action being taken is driving people away from the forum.

Shaman might find that comparison dishonest, but it was made for a reason.

SoL has always been about shitty opinions and shitty people arguing over shitty things, and banishing one type of shit doesn't make the Modmins the janitor. It just makes them the asshole creating more shit.
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  #10656  
Old 09-25-2017, 12:30 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Ruin, had there been any indication, including advocating paedophilia, that Xil was or had been committing a crime you can be sure that the authorities at that time would not only have banished her but also contacted the local authorities. I am given to understand that that was not (and still isn't) the case.

In fact Xil hasn't been active in years, if you exclude that brief appearance last year, so you'll have to forgive me if I also call your comparison dishonest.
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  #10657  
Old 09-25-2017, 01:07 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
The problem we have is that the actions being taken are being justified because "It's driving people away from the forum".

Problem is, the action being taken is driving people away from the forum.

Shaman might find that comparison dishonest, but it was made for a reason.

SoL has always been about shitty opinions and shitty people arguing over shitty things, and banishing one type of shit doesn't make the Modmins the janitor. It just makes them the asshole creating more shit.
Specific points:
  1. Galdus - It was I that had actually banned him at the time -with the blessing from the vast majority of the community- for reasons I had outlined at the time. Mainly that, after reading through a good chunk of his post history, he was one of few people that could genuinely be described as a fascist - and I don't think it can truly be said that his level of toxicity was of the same spirit of camaraderie as Scrolls of Lore has. And that his spam in the General Discussion board would ruin threads for so many others.
  2. Hammerbrew - As I had said at the time, when it came to a vote in the Maker's Terrace I said that I didn't think his suspension should have been a permanent one. And I found Hammerbrew to be usually pleasant-enough in the non-controversial threads. But it was also true that Hammerbrew was needlessly belligerent to people unnecessarily - something people repeatedly asked him to improve upon, but he would still persist in being horrible to some others here.
  3. Cantus - I may have some pretty fundamental philosophical and strategic disagreements with Cantus in the Maker's Terrace, but I believe he has been totally maligned by some in the community in a way that I think is unfair. I mean the kinds of things that have been said about him by a few people have been so over-the-top; and would probably have upset me if I had to read them. I'm personally not keen on appeals to authority, and so I would drift more towards an Omacron-dystopian Wild West style of moderating in how I approach things. But Cantus' position is a perfectly respectable in that he wants to improve the quality of discussion on the forum - I would too, we just disagree on some ways about how you would achieve that. So I would like to personally appeal to everyone to be a bit more charitable towards his position and him generally - that would be the kindly thing to do to someone that has been a member of the community for years
  4. "It's driving people away from the forum" - When I look at what the site's average traffic has been over the years - considering the fact that the Scrolls of Lore forum has never advertised itself online and is entirely word-of-mouth on a pretty niche topic- we still a pretty respectable level of traffic. There are ebbs and flows, like the boards have and will always be busier just after a new expansion's beta comes out. But naturally people get older, their interests change or they receive other responsibilities in their lives, and so its completely understandable that we would eventually lose people in the community. But considering how prolific the Discord has been -and the own numbers I can see on the site's daily visits- there's little evidence the community itself isn't as alive as its ever been.
My final note in this post is that the simple truth on moderating, and life, is that everyone is but a lowly primate susceptible to human error. We all have conflicting interests and not everyone can be happy about every matter of consequence - but I personally feel that the spirit of Scrolls of Lore has been a democratic one; in that we argue those matters out publicly in a fair but dialectical way.

Last edited by Shaman; 09-25-2017 at 01:15 AM..
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  #10658  
Old 09-25-2017, 01:28 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Ruin, had there been any indication, including advocating paedophilia, that Xil was or had been committing a crime you can be sure that the authorities at that time would not only have banished her but also contacted the local authorities. I am given to understand that that was not (and still isn't) the case.

In fact Xil hasn't been active in years, if you exclude that brief appearance last year, so you'll have to forgive me if I also call your comparison dishonest.
Nazja, has there been any indication that Galdus or Hammerbrew was or had been committing a crime?

Because you'll have to forgive me, but considering I didn't mention something being dependent on a crime, just on wrong opinions, I'm going to have to call that reply misleading.

Because again, Xil was used for a reason. That one of the most universally reviled things was allowed to be on the forum despite being relatively candid with the opinions, while two others were banned, without warning, without firm rules in place, because of their opinions and how they were expressed.

And the damndest thing is, the mod staff, up to and including Cantus, all seem to be too thick to realize that it's not THAT Hammer and Galdus were banned, but it's HOW Hammer and Galdus were banned.

If Xil ever comes back, is given a warning that if she starts up it will be a final ban, then does it. ban them.

That final warning was never given to either poster, and now a precedent's set for the Admods to just ban who they don't like with no warnings or rules in place.

And that isn't even a slippery slope argument. Quite literally, both times it was like that.

And like, you guys (as in the admods, not you. You weren't a mod at the time) know that this was a problem. You know how Scrolls of Lore reacts when shit like that happens.

You know because it happened with Slowpoke, where you actually DID give him a final warning, then banned him anyway immediately, and had the forum revolt.

None of it is news.

You find the comparison to Xil dishonest.

I find that somewhat puzzling, because Xil isn't the factor. Admods supporting or being ok with child abuse isn't the common factor. The moderation team without warning cracking down on one set of opinions and not the other? That's the problem.

Because, I mean, I don't think the mods opinions on child abuse changed from meh to it's bad in a few years. And I don't really think the forum atmosphere has changed all that much in a few years, it's just shifted from Faction related angst to political angst.

You are all still, barring Hammer and Galdus, extremely lax on moderation, just what you crack down on is odd.

Xil is used because not enough has changed between her and now to justify how this was fucking handled from start to finish.

And when a god damn Admin, who has been told the answer to this in more than one way, then has the temerity to say this

Quote:
and frankly I'm surprised that people are still defending him given his very unsubtly supremacist opinions
Then you know what?

Yeah, I'm going to go for the most offensive and standoutish comparison I can make.

Because obviously, it just hasn't sunk in yet that that Hammerbrew isn't being defended. The method in which he was banned is being condemned.

FFS, my first post on the subject was how it should be scaled back to a 6 month ban, and not a perma one, because he fucking deserved punishment.

And it was not once. It was not twice. It was with Galdus. It was with Hammer. And way back when, it was with Slowpoke, when he was just flat out banned before he even had a chance to follow the final warning.

Three strikes. Three god damned times the same thing has happened, with an upheaval and vague "we'll work on it" each time.

Get your shit together.

Because Cantus can rant all the fuck he wants about how each of the mod team has gotten messages about how the lack of moderation has driven people away.

That line rings way to god damned hollow when the rest of us get told people left because of him.

So here we are, short a hell of a lot of posters.

No Yask,
Possibly no PJ.
Rhags a ghost.
Smoke was gone for an extended break because of this shit.
When's the last time Grim posted?

And the list keeps growing.

With that being said, I'm obviously agitated, and I'm going to step away from this for a bit.
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Last edited by Ruinshin; 09-25-2017 at 01:33 AM..
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  #10659  
Old 09-25-2017, 02:50 AM
Malygos Malygos is offline

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I liken Galdus's ban to those of Salandit and Soldrethar (done with the blessing of the community). I don't recall if those people got 'official' warnings per se, so not sure how 1:1 this comparison is. Not even sure if it even matters.

Last edited by Malygos; 09-25-2017 at 02:52 AM.. Reason: eh
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  #10660  
Old 09-25-2017, 03:26 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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I hate to interrupt the bloodletting, but I've seen this message on the Discord thread and I think it's better answered here :

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Instead of discussing whether or not we should shut down the Discord (with the intent of revitalizing conversation on the forum, which seems uncharacteristically optimistic), we should be discussing how we can improve the forums.
My first priority would be the forum performance.
You have to be very motivated to read and post on a website that behaved like you have a 56k connection.
I know that only Warlock can act on this, but if we can't do anything everybody that remains active will end up on discord just because it's the only medium that actually loads.
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  #10661  
Old 09-25-2017, 04:36 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Ruin, you're missing my point, which admittedly may be my fault, but I simply can't be as succinct as I want whilst on my way work.

I'll elaborate after work.
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  #10662  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
I'm personally not keen on appeals to authority, and so I would drift more towards an Omacron-dystopian Wild West style of moderating in how I approach things. But Cantus' position is a perfectly respectable in that he wants to improve the quality of discussion on the forum - I would too, we just disagree on some ways about how you would achieve that.
It's just... what happens when you have theoretically equal leaders, in which the vast majority support a hands-off "wild west" style (e.g. Warlock, Omacron, Bolvar, Kellick, yourself, who else?), while a single other one supports a hands-on stricter style?

The single hands-on leader becomes the de facto ultimate authority.

Forumers don't have to worry as much about your opinion or Bolvar's, etc., as they do about Cantus'. Because you have different concepts on the nature of leadership here.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-25-2017 at 05:10 AM..
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  #10663  
Old 09-25-2017, 12:24 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Ruinship, first let me state that it's one thing to accuse us of hypocrisy and bias when it comes to small infractions, but it's quite another when it comes to topics like paedophilia. Don't take this as a threat, warning or whatever you will, but try to be more careful about the things you state.

Now, to clarify my earlier statement:
Due to other commitments all of us only have a limited amount of time to invest on SoL. To infer that we are morally corrupt simply because we choose to focus on SoL's current problems instead of reviewing the decisions made by our predecessors is not only dishonest but also borders on abuse. Especially if you consider that, unless I am not mistaken, the incident you are referring to happened almost ten years ago. It has been years since Xil was active on this forum, so naturally she and her statements are no longer on our minds. Furthermore, it is my belief that people should be punished for their choices and actions, not for something that is completely out of their control.

That said, as stated previously, if there are valid and substantiated concerns that someone may have been, is or will be involved in a serious crime I, and likely the rest of the staff, will step in immediately.
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  #10664  
Old 09-25-2017, 01:06 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Is PJ gone? She hasn't posted after the ban.
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  #10665  
Old 09-25-2017, 01:33 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Malygos View Post
I liken Galdus's ban to those of Salandit and Soldrethar (done with the blessing of the community). I don't recall if those people got 'official' warnings per se, so not sure how 1:1 this comparison is. Not even sure if it even matters.
As I wasn't involved in the moderation at the time those posters were banned, I'm not really in any position to comment on how their respective cases were handled. I can only really comment on how we decide to handle such cases going forward. In that respect, there are various different attitudes among the Staff since, as it turns out, people have different instincts.

My personal ideal simply involves my leading by example and gently prodding people in the right direction when their behaviour is particularly onerous, and when said behaviour actually gets complaints (because if ribbing is in good fun and entirely reciprocal, provided it isn't driving everyone else bonkers, then it's usually no harm no foul).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
The problem we have is that the actions being taken are being justified because "It's driving people away from the forum".

Problem is, the action being taken is driving people away from the forum.

Shaman might find that comparison dishonest, but it was made for a reason.

SoL has always been about shitty opinions and shitty people arguing over shitty things, and banishing one type of shit doesn't make the Modmins the janitor. It just makes them the asshole creating more shit.
While it's certainly factually correct that any given moderator action results in an equal and opposite reaction, I don't believe that, in itself, is reason to do nothing. As I've said, we've different instincts when it comes to moderation, but I think we're all (meaning everyone, not just the modmins) united insofar as we want SoL to be a good place to discuss all things Warcraft and otherwise.
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  #10666  
Old 09-25-2017, 02:28 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
[*]"It's driving people away from the forum" - When I look at what the site's average traffic has been over the years - considering the fact that the Scrolls of Lore forum has never advertised itself online and is entirely word-of-mouth on a pretty niche topic- we still a pretty respectable level of traffic. There are ebbs and flows, like the boards have and will always be busier just after a new expansion's beta comes out. But naturally people get older, their interests change or they receive other responsibilities in their lives, and so its completely understandable that we would eventually lose people in the community. But considering how prolific the Discord has been -and the own numbers I can see on the site's daily visits- there's little evidence the community itself isn't as alive as its ever been.[/LIST]
No, this is just wrong. We've had a lot of posters leave recently for one of two reasons. A) they don't like how moderation is handled or perceive a bias and B) some just don't like the drama. Ruin made a short list but it will grow longer, you can also add Hlaalu to the list. A damn fine poster lost to this BS. Obviously it all comes down to drama and that is linked with perceived bad moderation. Something should be done.
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  #10667  
Old 09-25-2017, 02:44 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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  #10668  
Old 09-25-2017, 02:46 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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No, this is just wrong. We've had a lot of posters leave recently for one of two reasons. A) they don't like how moderation is handled or perceive a bias and B) some just don't like the drama. Ruin made a short list but it will grow longer, you can also add Hlaalu to the list. A damn fine poster lost to this BS. Obviously it all comes down to drama and that is linked with perceived bad moderation. Something should be done.
If moderation is the problem, should we just get rid of the rules?
We could tell each other off whenever we want. We could question the parentage of the users and mins. We could suggest methods of suicide that other users and admins could try.
Anarchy!

Or maybe personal attacks and targeting admins is a bad thing. I dunno.
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  #10669  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:38 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Specific points:
  1. Galdus - It was I that had actually banned him at the time -with the blessing from the vast majority of the community- for reasons I had outlined at the time. Mainly that, after reading through a good chunk of his post history, he was one of few people that could genuinely be described as a fascist - and I don't think it can truly be said that his level of toxicity was of the same spirit of camaraderie as Scrolls of Lore has. And that his spam in the General Discussion board would ruin threads for so many others.
  2. Hammerbrew - As I had said at the time, when it came to a vote in the Maker's Terrace I said that I didn't think his suspension should have been a permanent one. And I found Hammerbrew to be usually pleasant-enough in the non-controversial threads. But it was also true that Hammerbrew was needlessly belligerent to people unnecessarily - something people repeatedly asked him to improve upon, but he would still persist in being horrible to some others here.
  3. Cantus - I may have some pretty fundamental philosophical and strategic disagreements with Cantus in the Maker's Terrace, but I believe he has been totally maligned by some in the community in a way that I think is unfair. I mean the kinds of things that have been said about him by a few people have been so over-the-top; and would probably have upset me if I had to read them. I'm personally not keen on appeals to authority, and so I would drift more towards an Omacron-dystopian Wild West style of moderating in how I approach things. But Cantus' position is a perfectly respectable in that he wants to improve the quality of discussion on the forum - I would too, we just disagree on some ways about how you would achieve that. So I would like to personally appeal to everyone to be a bit more charitable towards his position and him generally - that would be the kindly thing to do to someone that has been a member of the community for years
  4. "It's driving people away from the forum" - When I look at what the site's average traffic has been over the years - considering the fact that the Scrolls of Lore forum has never advertised itself online and is entirely word-of-mouth on a pretty niche topic- we still a pretty respectable level of traffic. There are ebbs and flows, like the boards have and will always be busier just after a new expansion's beta comes out. But naturally people get older, their interests change or they receive other responsibilities in their lives, and so its completely understandable that we would eventually lose people in the community. But considering how prolific the Discord has been -and the own numbers I can see on the site's daily visits- there's little evidence the community itself isn't as alive as its ever been.
My final note in this post is that the simple truth on moderating, and life, is that everyone is but a lowly primate susceptible to human error. We all have conflicting interests and not everyone can be happy about every matter of consequence - but I personally feel that the spirit of Scrolls of Lore has been a democratic one; in that we argue those matters out publicly in a fair but dialectical way.
We obviously got much less posts these months. Like I've said, with most of the ppl losing interest of WOW, it's time expand other stuff.
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  #10670  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:43 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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  #10671  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:48 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I've been away from this forum because of how slow it's been. But this forum and the people here have a place in my heart. The drama now is bad. I think it's destroying the forum. It makes me sad to see this.
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  #10672  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:41 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Politics is the worst. Everything would be fine if people didn't think it was necessary to talk politics or religion on this gaming forum.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10673  
Old 09-26-2017, 08:05 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Politics is the worst. Everything would be fine if people didn't think it was necessary to talk politics or religion on this gaming forum.
We'd then be discussing politics and religion about video games. Every aspect of media has become more politicized. Not discussing them has become a political statement, since it implies someone doesn't care about an issue enough.

Every generation or two has to deal with some political upheaval. This is ours.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #10674  
Old 09-26-2017, 09:15 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
"It's driving people away from the forum"[/B] - When I look at what the site's average traffic has been over the years - considering the fact that the Scrolls of Lore forum has never advertised itself online and is entirely word-of-mouth on a pretty niche topic- we still a pretty respectable level of traffic. There are ebbs and flows, like the boards have and will always be busier just after a new expansion's beta comes out. But naturally people get older, their interests change or they receive other responsibilities in their lives, and so its completely understandable that we would eventually lose people in the community. But considering how prolific the Discord has been -and the own numbers I can see on the site's daily visits- there's little evidence the community itself isn't as alive as its ever been.
This makes me think. BECAUSE we're such a niche community, that makes the audible departure of particular voices (whether because they were banned or stopped posting for whatever reason) feel more impactful than it actually is, because there's an appearance of a vacuum that's not being filled by new voices.

If the solution is filling that vacuum with new voices, then maybe expanding the site's community through outreach is a way to do that. EDIT: And I concur wholeheartedly that addressing the site's poor performance would be useful as well.
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Last edited by MisterCrow; 09-26-2017 at 09:18 AM..
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  #10675  
Old 09-26-2017, 09:50 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Is there any way to get PJ back?
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