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  #176  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:19 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I don't really have much to add here, aside from the confession that my big motivation for wanting High Elves on the Alliance is to recreate the Second War Alliance. It's the same reason and is at a similar level of importance to me as having ogres on the Horde. For some perspective, these are things I would like, but not having them isn't going to keep me from playing the game.

Void Elves may scratch that itch for me, they may not. I admittedly liked the original idea that they'd have a normal colored appearance and get voided out during combat, as happens with worgen. Not sure if that's still happening at this point, but speaking personally I don't consider it a dealbreaker.

From a design perspective, I can see Blizzard being in the position where they can't just give blood elves with blue eyes to the Alliance. Despite some players saying that a) that's all they want and b) it should be an easy thing, I can appreciate that Blizzard might look at those reasons and state that it's not enough. It's quite similar to the notion of the Draenor garrison as player housing: yeah, housing as a platform for social events and whatnot is cool and conceivably easy to do, but has it got staying power if there's no gameplay?

That's WHY the garrison was so central in Warlords; they overinvested in making the garrison into more than just a build-your-own castle that it ended up impacting a lot of other gameplay components in the end, and by the time that was evident they were too far to turn back around.

Void elves, in that case, are likely a similar situation: they decided that they needed to do something other than just blood elves with blue eyes, and by the time they were content with what they came up with, it was blood elves with grey skin and an obsession with void tentacles.

At the end of the day, the opportunity to have your vanilla high elves added to the game was passed a long time ago. As always, I wouldn't be against it happening (and as an aside, I'm not certain Deicide's storm elves would be met with a better response than void elves are currently) but I'm not going to hold my breath for it.
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  #177  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:45 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Before posting in this thread, please refer to Mending's post and consider whether posting is really necessary.
So when is posting really necessary?
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  #178  
Old 12-14-2017, 01:58 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I'll have to agree with Deicide here. Since Void elves are not showing to keep the themes of the High elves, and since they themselves were blood elves previously, I still remain with my wish to see playable high elves on the Alliance.
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  #179  
Old 12-14-2017, 02:40 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'll have to agree with Deicide here. Since Void elves are not showing to keep the themes of the High elves, and since they themselves were blood elves previously, I still remain with my wish to see playable high elves on the Alliance.
Here's the problem with "the themes" argument, though. Aside from their backstory, which indeed is unique *note*, and their visuals, which are not really that unique considering they are just blood elves painted blue, what is unique about them thematically? If you want the elves of Warcraft II, ie rangers and archers close to their forests and the earth, moon themed, with druids, and part of the Alliance, you have the Kaldorei. What else do the high elves bring in thematically? That they are pale and blonde while having these themes? Does that mean that if playable night elves were given a Highborne pale and blonde skin, you'd be content? If not, then what exactly do you feel is different there thematically?


*Note*; The issue is not that we would consider their backstory same to that of the blood elves, the issue is that we think a backstory alone is not enough to justify them as an Alliance race; for the Horde, it would be easier, as in that moment, they would serve just an extension of the blood elves, just like the Lightforged serve an extension of the Draenei on the Alliance.
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  #180  
Old 12-14-2017, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Also, high elves are the only elven race that is close to the ages-old "elven ranger" concept.


The Blood Elf Farstriders are still one of the three major powers of Silvermoon, including the Magisters and Blood Knights. And by the time of WC3:RoC, even before they became blood elves, the high elf units were mages and priests. Alliance Elven archery had now been replaced by Dwarven Riflemen and Night Elf Amazons.

I suspect that although the Blood Elves are a losing a fraction of their number courtesy of the Void Elves, the High Elves probably also lost a fraction of their number once the Sunwell was cleansed, as there likely were High Elves who could look over their political differences regarding Horde vs. Alliance for the sake of Sin/Quel'dorei unity. Since Void Elves seemed to be Blood Elves up until recently, I think that High Elven allegiance to the Alliance may be a bit more flexible than you are giving credit. Vareesa was nearly convinced to join the Horde as well, with her half-human children being her primary motivations for staying Alliance.

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The High Elves are the ones who chose not to do any of that, so stick with the Alliance, who managed their mana withdrawal in other ways. It's a similar type of fantasy to the Mag'har, which is precisely the reason I used them for the analogy: they are the unfallen, the defectors from decadence, the ones that took the moral high ground.
Not really. Most of the mag'har in Burning Crusade were orcs youths, infirmed, or orcs stricken ill by the red pox who were unable to march with the Horde on campaign and subsequently quarantined. (This is even part of the myth behind Thrall's false conception of the "purity" of the mag'har.) Also, full body brown vs. full body green (and in all probability on the same faction) feels like a magnitude of aesthetic difference than simply different shades of eye color. If Blizzard ever gave Blood Elves the option to have blue eyes, then this discussion would be immediately dead in the water. That right there is a pretty big indicator of why High Elves would be a poor choice to implement on Blizzard's part.

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  #181  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
The Blood Elf Farstriders are still one of the three major powers of Silvermoon, including the Magisters and Blood Knights. And by the time of WC3:RoC, even before they became blood elves, the high elf units were mages and priests. Alliance Elven archery had now been replaced by Dwarven Riflemen and Night Elf Amazons.
It's true, and all elf groups have some sort of rangers among them.

But consider this: in none of the playable groups, rangers are the primary focus of the race. To night elves, druids are way more iconic. To blood elves, farstriders play third place and way less featured than magisters and blood mages. Farstriders, I dare say, are even the most "high elven" of the blood elves. Halduron is presented as the one that still acts almost like a high elf (maybe losing only to Aethas).

Now, high elves, almost everything about them is formed around rangers. They have ranger lodges scattered throught eastern kingdoms. The Silver Covenant's leader is a ranger. The Silver Covenant has mages, but they are overshadowed by the rangers (to the point that the Covenant appears in the Hunter campaign as one of the three elf ranger corps you come to ask help). The other known high elf group, the highvale elf, is also a ranger organization. The original Warcraft 2 elf units were archers/rangers. And most named high elf characters are rangers: Vereesa, Alleria, Hawkspear, Auric.

Magic in the remaining high elves plays a far less important role than in the blood elves. If you check Lyria Skystrider and Priest Ennas' dialog in Silvermoon, you see them practically saying the high elf ethos, and that includes abandoning their reliance on magic. The highvale elves, canonically, have abandoned arcane magic completely.

There's a basis for a theme (and a culture) to form around this.
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  #182  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post


The Blood Elf Farstriders are still one of the three major powers of Silvermoon, including the Magisters and Blood Knights. And by the time of WC3:RoC, even before they became blood elves, the high elf units were mages and priests. Alliance Elven archery had now been replaced by Dwarven Riflemen and Night Elf Amazons.
Indeed. Hell, I could even imagine that some Farstriders, especially those who spent most of their time away from Silvermoon during the times before the Sunwell's restoration, have kept blue eyes, staying High Elves in eveything but name.

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I suspect that although the Blood Elves are a losing a fraction of their number courtesy of the Void Elves, the High Elves probably also lost a fraction of their number once the Sunwell was cleansed, as there likely were High Elves who could look over their political differences regarding Horde vs. Alliance for the sake of Sin/Quel'dorei unity. Since Void Elves seemed to be Blood Elves up until recently, I think that High Elven allegiance to the Alliance may be a bit more flexible than you are giving credit. Vareesa was nearly convinced to join the Horde as well, with her half-human children being her primary motivations for staying Alliance.
Precisely why I brought up playable High Elves on the Horde.

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It's true, and all elf groups have some sort of rangers among them.
To night elves, druids are way more iconic.
In Warcraft III, Tyrande represented the Kaldorei in the box art/manual. She was the figurehead of their campaign. And their campaign screen featured a Sentinel archer. With World of Warcraft, we have seen the druids working often independently from the Sentinels, who form the core of their society still. Even Chronicle features Tyrande on its cover, not any druid.
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  #183  
Old 12-14-2017, 03:47 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
In Warcraft III, Tyrande represented the Kaldorei in the box art/manual. She was the figurehead of their campaign.
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Even Chronicle features Tyrande on its cover, not any druid.
Tyrande is a priest, thought. A mixture of ranger/priest, true, but the leadership and guidance of night elven society are priests and druids.

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And their campaign screen featured a Sentinel archer.
So...? Each campaign scream featured the basic unit of the race.

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With World of Warcraft, we have seen the druids working often independently from the Sentinels, who form the core of their society still.
That's a problem with WoW taking everything iconic from the night elves and making it neutral.

Nothing of that invalidade what I said. It shows night elves have rangers, just like blood elves have rangers. But that's their military, not the core of their leadership. Who's the Sentinel General? Shandris. How much is she featured? Almost never. Who's the Farstrider Ranger-General? Halduron. He's the least featured of the Blood elven trinity, and has been used less than Liadrin. It's almost as if the blood knights were taking the spot of the farstriders (a canon rivalry).

There's a difference between a race having rangers in its military and being mostly rangers themselves. When you select a night elf, default class is druid. When you select a blood elf, default class is mage. If high elves were playable, I'd say default class should be hunter.
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  #184  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:12 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Tyrande is a priest, thought. A mixture of ranger/priest, true, but the leadership and guidance of night elven society are priests and druids.
First of all, priestesses of the moon are hardly your classic priests. When it comes to combat, they are far closer to hunters than priests. You can easily look at their Warcraft III skills to confirm that. Moreover, Tyrande is still the leader of the Sentinels. Ie, a Sentinel represents the Kaldorei in Warcraft III, not a druid.

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So...? Each campaign scream featured the basic unit of the race.
Wrong. The undead are represented by a lich. The elven archer there is simply because it is the most iconic force the Kaldorei has. Just like the orcs are represented by grunts and the humans by footmen/knights usually.

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When you select a night elf, default class is druid. When you select a blood elf, default class is mage. If high elves were playable, I'd say default class should be hunter.
So, the priest class is more iconic to the humans than the paladin class because it is the default class for them on the character creation screen? Sorry, but it does not work this way.

Last edited by Marthen; 12-14-2017 at 04:14 AM..
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  #185  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:27 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Wrong. The undead are represented by a lich. The elven archer there is simply because it is the most iconic force the Kaldorei has. Just like the orcs are represented by grunts and the humans by footmen/knights usually.
I forgot about the lich. Guess ghouls do not make a good campaign screen.

Still, you citing the only exception. 3/4 of the campaign screens feature the basic units.

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So, the priest class is more iconic to the humans than the paladin class because it is the default class for them on the character creation screen? Sorry, but it does not work this way.
I never understood why human default class is priest, to be frank. Nothing in lore supports that, unless you count Anduin, but he has only become racial leader now.

For a comparison: dwarves, humans and draenei have paladins, but only one of them has a culture devoted around paladin customs, and it's the draenei. As important as paladins are to humans, the "paladin race", the one full of vindicants, centered on the Light, in this case is draenei.

This would be the same about the elves: all of them have rangers, but the blood elf culture revolves around mages and magic; the night elf culture revolves around druidism and religion. If the high elves were to get the same kind of attention, their natural class would be rangers, and that would be reflected in their outlook.

Hell, look at Alleria. Warpaint, braids and feathers in hair. That's the kind of look that a culture centered on rangers would have.
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  #186  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:31 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I never understood why human default class is priest, to be frank. Nothing in lore supports that, unless you count Anduin, but he has only become racial leader now.

For a comparison: dwarves, humans and draenei have paladins, but only one of them has a culture devoted around paladin customs, and it's the draenei. As important as paladins are to humans, the "paladin race", the one full of vindicants, centered on the Light, in this case is draenei.

This would be the same about the elves: all of them have rangers, but the blood elf culture revolves around mages and magic; the night elf culture revolves around druidism and religion. If the high elves were to get the same kind of attention, their natural class would be rangers, and that would be reflected in their outlook.

Hell, look at Alleria. Warpaint, braids and feathers in hair. That's the kind of look that a culture centered on rangers would have.
I am going to just leave it at this, because once again, we seem to be clearly in disagreement.

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  #187  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:33 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I am going to just leave it at this, because once again, we seem to be clearly in disagreement.
I can post random images of high elf rangers as well.





Two of those predate night elves by many years.
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  #188  
Old 12-14-2017, 04:47 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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I have trouble understanding why you think 'going Blood' is somehow a corruption on the same level as the way green orcs 'went fel'.
I don't think it's on the same level. I'm trying to make you understand that the difference between High Elves and Blood Elves is not simply the color of their freaking tabard.

But I think I'll do better. From now on, I'll butt in any discussion of people that are interested in Alterac or Lordaeron and say, "lulz, why do you want another human city, Stormwind is right over there!".
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  #189  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:04 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I can post random images of high elf rangers as well.

Two of those predate night elves by many years.
I don't think anybody was arguing the high elves do not have rangers. I think the argument was about your claim that rangers are not iconic to the night elves, one you defended with "hey, Alleria has warpaints, braids, feathers". Well, I just proved not only Alleria has them. But since you want to play...






Of course, the Kaldorei have feathers, leaves, and arrows on their crest, but rangers are absolutely not iconic to them at all.

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  #190  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:10 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I don't think it's on the same level. I'm trying to make you understand that the difference between High Elves and Blood Elves is not simply the color of their freaking tabard.

But I think I'll do better. From now on, I'll butt in any discussion of people that are interested in Alterac or Lordaeron and say, "lulz, why do you want another human city, Stormwind is right over there!".
Fascinating correlation. You might as well start by opposing Kul Tiras right now.
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  #191  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:15 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I think the argument was about your claim that rangers are not iconic to the night elves
I literally never said anything close to that, and I challenge you to quote anything from me that says otherwise.
I said rangers play a lesser role to druids.
And BTW, feathers, braids, leaves are also druidic icons. Or are you implying druids have no connection to nature? That living in magical trees and having magic moonwells is more ranger than druid/mysticism? That druidism in Warcraft wasn't introduced throught the night elves?

In my own original post on this topic, I said (bolding the important parts):

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Also, high elves are the only elven race that is close to the ages-old "elven ranger" concept. The night elves pull from druidism and mysticism; The blood elves are regal mages and warlocks, seeking power; The nightborne... are much like the blood elves; The void elves... are also like the blood elves, but more emo. Remaining high elves, while originally like the blood elves, are now mostly rangers and survivors, without the "savagery" of the night elves.
You can say Sentinels are a new iteration of the "elven ranger", but stray away from classic rangers and go deeper into druidism. I even put in the post a comparison with the night elves, to show I was talking about classic rangers, not the "savage" night elf archetype.
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  #192  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I literally never said anything close to that, and I challenge you to quote anything from me that says otherwise.
I said rangers play a lesser role to druids.
Which in other word means druids are the main icon of the race, which is simply not true.

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And BTW, feathers, braids, leaves are also druidic icons. Or are you implying druids have no connection to nature? That living in magical trees and having magic moonwells is more ranger than druid/mysticism?
Not when combined with arrows in such a way. And didn't you use braids and feathers for your Alleria argument just moments ago?

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You can say Sentinels are a new iteration of the "elven ranger", but stray away from classic rangers and go deeper into druidism. I even put in the post a comparison with the night elves, to show I was talking about classic rangers, not the "savage" night elf archetype.
Except these classic rangers of Warcraft II you like to throw around were connected to nature and the earth far closely, had druids at their side, and were pretty savage themselves. It was not until Warcraft III retconned them and gave these thematics to the Kaldorei when this changed. So, really, these classic rangers are the Sentinels, the retconned Thalassian rangers are technically a new brand. I thought BaronGrackle made enough posts on this matter in the past here.
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  #193  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:34 AM
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Which in other word means druids are the main icon of the race, which is simply not true.
Yeah. Because the very first thing you see in the very first WoW cinematic isn't a night elf turning into a cat.

Maybe druids being introduced throught night elves is just a coincidence.

Maybe night elves living in trees has nothing to do with druidic iconography at all.

Sorry, Marthen, but saying that druids are not the main icon of night elves is a losing battle. Just ask around these forums.

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Not when combined with arrows in such a way. And didn't you use braids and feathers for your Alleria argument just moments ago?
Yeah, but not to dismiss anything from the night elves, but to show that imagery is present in Alleria.

Do high elves have druids? Do they live in magic trees? Are they one with nature? No. Night elves do have those things. Of course they'll have rangers, as their entire society is based on nature.

High elves, on the other hand, are just woodsmen and survivalists. It's a different concept of ranger. These rangers do not have treants, don't have the backup of druids, they don't pledge devotion to nature.

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Except these classic rangers of Warcraft II you like to throw around were connected to nature and the earth far closely, had druids at their side, and were pretty savage themselves. It was not until Warcraft III retconned them and gave these thematics to the Kaldorei when this changed. So, really, these classic rangers are the Sentinels, the retconned Thalassian rangers are technically a new brand. I thought BaronGrackle made enough posts on this matter in the past here.
You just proved with that post that there's a missing link between night and blood elf culture that could be used to flesh out high elves.
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  #194  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:58 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Yeah. Because the very first thing you see in the very first WoW cinematic isn't a night elf turning into a cat.

Maybe druids being introduced throught night elves is just a coincidence.

Maybe night elves living in trees has nothing to do with druidic iconography at all.

Sorry, Marthen, but saying that druids are not the main icon of night elves is a losing battle. Just ask around these forums.
Nothing of that proves they are the main icon. See, I am not arguing they are not a main icon. I am arguing they are not the main icon. That's a huge difference. Moreover, popular opinions are not always the correct ones, even though unlike you, I am absolutely not certain how such a poll would end.

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Yeah, but not to dismiss anything from the night elves, but to show that imagery is present in Alleria..
And the point is? That high elves also have rangers? Again, no one disputed that.

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High elves, on the other hand, are just woodsmen and survivalists. It's a different concept of ranger. These rangers do not have treants, don't have the backup of druids, they don't pledge devotion to nature.
.
You are setting a trap for yourself here, because that feels far more like a material for a hero class unique to a single race rather than an entire race. Unless you want that race to be very limited in its culture and class choices.

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You just proved with that post that there's a missing link between night and blood elf culture that could be used to flesh out high elves.
Except as Genesis already pointed out in the very beginning, the Farstriders already cover that. Just that you don't like it because it is only a segment of a society instead of an entire society does not make it any less true.

Just because the Sin'dorei and the Kaldorei are not entirely culturally and thematically homogenous does not mean it is sensible to create a playable race around something segments of both their societies already cover, which is what your current argument boils down to basically.
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  #195  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:22 AM
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Nothing of that proves they are the main icon. See, I am not arguing they are not a main icon. I am arguing they are not the main icon. That's a huge difference. Moreover, popular opinions are not always the correct ones, even though unlike you, I am absolutely not certain how such a poll would end.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:40 AM
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Nothing of that proves they are the main icon. See, I am not arguing they are not a main icon. I am arguing they are not the main icon. That's a huge difference. Moreover, popular opinions are not always the correct ones, even though unlike you, I am absolutely not certain how such a poll would end.



And the point is? That high elves also have rangers? Again, no one disputed that.



You are setting a trap for yourself here, because that feels far more like a material for a hero class unique to a single race rather than an entire race. Unless you want that race to be very limited in its culture and class choices.



Except as Genesis already pointed out in the very beginning, the Farstriders already cover that. Just that you don't like it because it is only a segment of a society instead of an entire society does not make it any less true.

Just because the Sin'dorei and the Kaldorei are not entirely culturally and thematically homogenous does not mean it is sensible to create a playable race around something segments of both their societies already cover, which is what your current argument boils down to basically.
I'm talking about basic concepts here. Base ideas upon which more complex structures can be built upon. I don't know why it's so difficult to understand.

Night elves are a druidic/mystic race. That's the base idea. Around it, you have treants, wisps harvesting wood without chopping tree, houses created out of living tree, a people in tune with nature, in comunion with animals and plants.

Blood elves are magic-based society. That's the base idea. Around it, you have magisters, the Sunwell as the center of society, the widespread study and practice of magic. Even the blood knights are born out of this concept, as they originally took the Light as just another magical force to be mastered, and eventually evolved beyond it.

Ironforge Dwarves are an industrious race that live in the mountains. Around it, you have houses that burrow into the ground, a strong affinity for forging, mechanical contraptions and mountaineers.

Wildhammer dwarves are gryphon-riding shamans. Just the base idea is enough to differentiate them from Ironforge dwarves, despite there being no physical differences. From that, you get tatoos, different housing style, affinity for the elements, a more primitive culture.

Base ideas are just seeds. It's from them that the rest of the tree grows. Some branches can reach far away from that base idea, but they sprout from it nonetheless.

Developing a society around the base concept of "ranger" ends up with something different from the base concept of "druid". There may be some overlap here and there, but they are quintessentially different.

If you want to differentiate a race, you need to make grow out of a different base idea. What makes Gilneans (disregard worgen) different from Stormwind humans? Why do they have different houses, different clothing, harvest witches, no paladins? It's that Blizzard decided to take a different root, despite all of them being humans.

Once you remove a splinter from a tree and let it grow in different conditions, it will grow into its own tree, with its own branches. Usually takes time, but that can be hastened by conditions, both mundane (exile, contact with other cultures) or unusual (magic, meddling from other beings, a new scientific discovery).

My whole point over all these threads is to show that high elves have their own base ideas. If Blizzard wish, those concepts could be used to make high elves their own thing. The base ideas would eventually generate their own architecture, hairstyles, clothing, quintessential classes, whatever.

And one of these base ideas is the quintessential ranger. The survivalist. One that is not communing with nature, just having to live in it. Other potential basic concepts include: refugee, rejection of the past, mixed race, anger over the kin that exiled them, desire to find its place in the world.

You can mold their customs on the necessity of survival and mingling with other races. Their architecture could be somewhat like Dalaran's, which is a result of human and elves living together for 4,000 years. Their clothing and hairstyles can evolve due to the necessity of survival (you can't have those elegant hairstyles and pompous dresses if you are living in the woods or in a small comunity).

You see the tiny seed and think it's nothing special. I see the potential tree that could grow out of it. I think of the branches that reach far away from the roots.

Blizzard just did that with the highmountain and the nightborne. You will see that happen right now with the void elves: Blizzard took a bunch of standard run-of-the-mill blood elves, applied a little magic, and now they'll grow into their own thing over the years. Eventually, they'll have more and more traits, beyond physical, that make them different from the tree they splintered off.

But, that growth would only happen if the seed was planted. And that's the problem here: everyone, Blizzard included, has discarded the seed. Its potential was ignored and wasted, despite it being ready to grow. It will never turn into the huge tree it could be.
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  #197  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:35 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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But consider this: in none of the playable groups, rangers are the primary focus of the race. To night elves, druids are way more iconic. To blood elves, farstriders play third place and way less featured than magisters and blood mages. Farstriders, I dare say, are even the most "high elven" of the blood elves. Halduron is presented as the one that still acts almost like a high elf (maybe losing only to Aethas).
No such elven race in WoW has such a singular focus, not even the classic elves of Middle Earth, surrounding rangers, not even the Silver Covenant. Rangers are most definitely highly iconic for both the blood and night elves in lore and popular conception. They are even the most popularly played hunter races for both their respective factions.

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Now, high elves, almost everything about them is formed around rangers. They have ranger lodges scattered throught eastern kingdoms. The Silver Covenant's leader is a ranger. The Silver Covenant has mages, but they are overshadowed by the rangers (to the point that the Covenant appears in the Hunter campaign as one of the three elf ranger corps you come to ask help). The other known high elf group, the highvale elf, is also a ranger organization. The original Warcraft 2 elf units were archers/rangers. And most named high elf characters are rangers: Vereesa, Alleria, Hawkspear, Auric.
You have a selective memory about this game. Many of the high elves of the Silver Covenant you encounter, such as on the Isle of Thunder and in Dalaran, have the titles Arcanist and Magus. Yes, they have many rangers, though I would also note that Silver Covenant's leader is also just about the only high elf that anyone casually playing the game could name. (Though I suspect that many a blood elf would be named if those players were asked.) And those ranger lodges you mention? Practically gone. One lodge has become almost entirely withered. The one in Loch Modan has only one or two elves, with the rest being dwarves, humans, and gnomes, as it has become a general "hunter's lodge" rather than a high elf lodge. One is still around in the Hinterlands, and that's about it. I would argue, however, that the high elves are not centered around being rangers, but, rather, that these hunting lodges became grounds for refuge for the high elves only because those were the rare places outside of Silvermoon (and Dalaran) that they had for themselves to congregate.

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Magic in the remaining high elves plays a far less important role than in the blood elves.
And thus the Silver Covenant hangs around in the magically-ubiquitous city of Dalaran?

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If you check Lyria Skystrider and Priest Ennas' dialog in Silvermoon, you see them practically saying the high elf ethos, and that includes abandoning their reliance on magic.
I suspect that dialogue is far less true due to the restoration of the Sunwell, particularly as a pilgrimage site for both blood and high elves. The well is no longer poisonous and the naaru gave its blessing; it's safe to drink. And there has been a repeated show post-restoration of showing high elves visiting the Sunwell.
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  #198  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:05 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You could also point out that it is mages who represent the Silver Covenant during the Siege of Suramar, not rangers (well, except for Vereesa).
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  #199  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:17 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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No such elven race in WoW has such a singular focus, not even the classic elves of Middle Earth, surrounding rangers, not even the Silver Covenant. Rangers are most definitely highly iconic for both the blood and night elves in lore and popular conception. They are even the most popularly played hunter races for both their respective factions.

You have a selective memory about this game. Many of the high elves of the Silver Covenant you encounter, such as on the Isle of Thunder and in Dalaran, have the titles Arcanist and Magus. Yes, they have many rangers, though I would also note that Silver Covenant's leader is also just about the only high elf that anyone casually playing the game could name. (Though I suspect that many a blood elf would be named if those players were asked.) And those ranger lodges you mention? Practically gone. One lodge has become almost entirely withered. The one in Loch Modan has only one or two elves, with the rest being dwarves, humans, and gnomes, as it has become a general "hunter's lodge" rather than a high elf lodge. One is still around in the Hinterlands, and that's about it. I would argue, however, that the high elves are not centered around being rangers, but, rather, that these hunting lodges became grounds for refuge for the high elves only because those were the rare places outside of Silvermoon (and Dalaran) that they had for themselves to congregate.

And thus the Silver Covenant hangs around in the magically-ubiquitous city of Dalaran?

I suspect that dialogue is far less true due to the restoration of the Sunwell, particularly as a pilgrimage site for both blood and high elves. The well is no longer poisonous and the naaru gave its blessing; it's safe to drink. And there has been a repeated show post-restoration of showing high elves visiting the Sunwell.
Having magical support does not make the Silver Covenant any more magical aligned than the army of Stormwind. What's the only class hall campaign that features the Covenant? It's the Hunter one, in which the Covenant is compared to Farstriders and Sentinels. During the campaign, you seek each of the three elven ranger corps to ask for aid against Hakkar's hounds.

I'm neither saying that high elves are all rangers nor that other elves don't have rangers. I'm talking about what you focus as a seed, what concept they can be based on so you start sprouting branches off of it.

What are some of the seeds of void elves, for instance? Mages and the void (for the lack of a void-based class. Yes, there are priests, but judging from Alleria and the little we know, they don't seem focused on shadow priests, and even their default class is mage). Yet, they have hunters, warriors and whatever else.
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  #200  
Old 12-14-2017, 09:17 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I don't think it's on the same level. I'm trying to make you understand that the difference between High Elves and Blood Elves is not simply the color of their freaking tabard.

But I think I'll do better. From now on, I'll butt in any discussion of people that are interested in Alterac or Lordaeron and say, "lulz, why do you want another human city, Stormwind is right over there!".
I don't understand how I've offended so you much that you think retaliation is necessary, but - for one thing, I don't give a shit about Lordaeron and Alterac, and - for another, interest in the high elves/other human kingdoms is not the same thing as petition for playable high elves/other human nationalities.
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